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2004-04-30 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Steve White 2004-04-30 1:27:12 AM|| || Front Page|| [8 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Bad apples in every army:

It would appear, though, that soldiers don't always make good jailers. Atrocities by Canadian soldiers in Somalia who tortured and killed a prisoner, led to the disbandment of the Canadian Airborne Regiment in the 1990s. Italian troops in Somalia also abused prisoners.
The British army is also investigating the torture and murder of Iraqi prisoners. Like the Americans, the British are stressing it was the acts of individual soldiers.

Source: cbc.ca

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-30 3:52:13 AM|| 2004-04-30 3:52:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Imagine the Middle Eastern Press take on this. This is what they were waiting for to "prove" how twisted and inhumane Americans are. Never mind that these atrocities are a pinic compare to what they do to common prisoners or their servants here.

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-04-30 4:07:02 AM|| 2004-04-30 4:07:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Anon: the Middle East "press" means nothing any more. What else can they say that they haven't already? They're part of the enemy agit-prop machine...as was 60 minutes for doing this story.

You know what really worries me though: that 60 minutes will get what they really want. A US defeat...a defeat that will doom our children and grandchildren, who will one day curse us for collapsing...if we collapse.

Posted by RMcLeod 2004-04-30 4:34:16 AM|| 2004-04-30 4:34:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 In warfare, abuses commonly develop when an army quickly captures many more enemies than it can feed, house, guard and control. The army personnel assigned to this task are overwhelmed, confused and even panicked.

These guards were foolish and obviously did not receive adequate guidance and supervision from their superiors. Keep in mind, though, that those superiors were overwhelmed too, maybe most of all.

I suspect also that the interrogation system was in disarray. I saw the 60 Minutes show, and one of the accused guards mentioned that there were interrogators from the CIA, FBI, Services and various other secret organizations (?). It sounds like a mess where a few ambitious cowboys could experiment with their own creative interrogation ideas could run riot.

By the way, this revelations ought to prompt a serious examination of the incredible claims -- masturbating prostitutes, etc. -- made by prisoners released from Guatanamo. There really might be some very bad apples among our interrogators.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-04-30 7:15:49 AM|| 2004-04-30 7:15:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 So far I haven't seen anything worse than the average fraternity rush. I guess they didn't get any pictures of the "elephant walk" or the pledges having to pick up olives with their butt cheeks off of a block of ice.

Posted by Eric 2004-04-30 8:28:07 AM|| 2004-04-30 8:28:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Mike S, this report supports your view.

Posted by Phil B 2004-04-30 8:35:09 AM|| 2004-04-30 8:35:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 "This general is toast; she lost control of her unit."

She might as well resign,her carrer is over.

Posted by raptor 2004-04-30 8:37:30 AM|| 2004-04-30 8:37:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I've seen the pictures and they were sickening;I can hardly imagine how the Iraqis will react when they see'em.

Posted by El Id 2004-04-30 9:34:19 AM|| 2004-04-30 9:34:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 By the way, this revelations ought to prompt a serious examination of the incredible claims -- masturbating prostitutes, etc. -- made by prisoners released from Guatanamo.

Guantanamo is accessible only by sea and air; on three sides is the openly hostile country of Cuba. The only flights in are either military or military charter; I suspect the only ships in and out are military. You can bet that any civilian craft approaching Gitmo are boarded and searched or just turned away; I suspect we're rather concerned with terrorist interest in the base.

So just where the hell did those "prostitutes" come from?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-30 9:47:05 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-04-30 9:47:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I don't really have any problem with our men using robust techniques to interrogate prisoners in order to obtain information that could save lives. The interesting fact is that pictures were allowed to be taken. The next time someone decides to take pictures, the guy should be strung up from the nearest lamppost.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-30 9:54:21 AM|| 2004-04-30 9:54:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 ElId - Wotta load of BS. From which paradigm are you speaking? Westerner or Arab? The difference is significant, as you know, and as everyone should keep in mind.

Everyone involved knew, inherently - thanks to our social ruleset, that they were out of bounds. They'll definitely get theirs - as we obviously do our laundry in public - no?

If only the same was true of Izzoids who perpetrate far more heinous acts, we would be dealing with issues from within the same paradigm. That is not the case, as you should keep in mind. Yesterday's interminable thread on this proved, yet again, how important it is to clarify the paradigm from which remarks originate. 90% of it was at cross-purposes and pointless. The perps and their superiors knew better and they will get their just desserts, something demonstrably untrue in almost any other similar circumstance you can name. It doesn't mean shit in the long run (read: beyond those not directly involved) except to fools. That's it, from the Western non-idiotarian POV.

If the Arab "world" wants to go apeshit, so what? They've been apeshit for a long long time. We'll deal with our own - and them. The Izzoids execute a helpless Italian captive and you equate it with this - at least emotionally. Death vs. Humiliation. Moral equivalency gone mad. Fuck that noise and get a grip. Are you "seething" for us? Want to spell out what you think this response will be and explain your reasoning? I would find that fascinatingly revealing.

Posted by .com 2004-04-30 10:01:24 AM|| 2004-04-30 10:01:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 .com: ElId - Wotta load of BS. From which paradigm are you speaking? Westerner or Arab? The difference is significant, as you know, and as everyone should keep in mind.

My sentiments exactly. Muslims are making out like humiliation is the ultimate no-no in the treatment of Muslim prisoners. Well, Muslim jihadis humiliate our prisoners, torture them slowly, kill them and then mutilate their bodies. I don't have any problem with humiliating or beating jihadis for information.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-30 10:28:12 AM|| 2004-04-30 10:28:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 What disturbs me is that the leading perps, the six who are being court-martialed, are from a reserve MP unit.
This means a high probability that several, perhaps all, are involved in law enforcement or prison work in civilian life.
Does anyone have any info on their respective backgrounds?
What about Karpinski herself? Is she regular or reserve? Anyone know about her career background?
If we have a cross-section of civilian correctional types involved in this, the scandal may get a lot bigger.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-30 10:37:42 AM|| 2004-04-30 10:37:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 ZF - Just a few minutes on ol' reliable, Jihad Spun-Up, tells us all we need to know, heh, and clarifies the point for even the terminally lame! Grrrr! The time is long past for discarding the gloves and our interminable attempts to "understand" that which is so barbaric as to be inhuman. Geee! I guess in that sentence I've just exposed myself for a simultaneous redneck and bleeding heart liberal! Go figure, eh? Lol!
;-)

Posted by .com 2004-04-30 10:37:55 AM|| 2004-04-30 10:37:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Hello! - Soldiers make lousy cops, they ain't trained for that. That's precisely why the US has the Posse Commitatus act.

As Ron Perleman observed:
"Hey, I mostly just hurt people!"

Posted by mojo 2004-04-30 11:20:25 AM|| 2004-04-30 11:20:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 I found an answer on the background of these guys. Most are correctional officers in Maryland and Virginia:

"We are relying heavily on our soldiers with correctional [officer] experience," said their newsletter, published in the local newspaper. "The regular Army can't touch us with experience."

But months later, the prison detail was disgraced in news reports across the world.

The Army said yesterday that 14 of the 17 soldiers implicated in an investigation of abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison are from the 372nd. They face either criminal or administrative charges.

Damn. Just damn. No, hell and damn.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-30 11:49:05 AM|| 2004-04-30 11:49:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 AC - one of the reservists is a guard back in VA. Said he wasn't trained to do pow work and there were no geneva guidelines to follow - blaming everything on his command essentially. I don't buy it, sounds like him and the others were prolly bored and frustrated and made some real bad calls. IMHO, this shit is just frat stuff, I have a sick mind & think it's fucking funny as hell though. However, it was also pretty stupid, a SNCO or Officer should've stepped up and told the lads to knock off the tom foolery. I can understand how this happens though wouldn't have allowed this in my command. They're especially stupid for taking pictures (if those are indeed legit) and will be punished accordingly. Move along people, nothing to see here.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-30 11:52:01 AM|| 2004-04-30 11:52:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 It's amazing that an MP would plead ignorance of the Geneva guidelines or routine procedure.
I think we are seeing a My Lai style defense here, transferring the blame to the command structure in the hope of obscuring the defendant's personal guilt behind a political smokescreen.
Guilt does appear to go pretty high up the chain here (as it did at My Lai) but that doesn't get the low-level perps off the hook.
Any soldier, let alone an MP with correctional experience, should know better than this.
I spent 30 years in the military, active and reserve, enlisted at E-1 and retired at O-5.
These sad-sacks would never be able to convince me that they just didn't know any better.

I am still in a state of shock over some of the pictures I saw this morning. WTF were these people thinking about? Could they really have been so ignorant of the consequences if these were published?
Some of our fellow soldiers let us down pretty badly in Vietnam, to say nothing of the leadership (damn them to hell again, anyway).

I thought we were past that, I really did.

Worse, these idiots don't have the excuse of being conscipted to fight in a barbarous and unpopular war that had gone on for years on end.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-30 12:22:43 PM|| 2004-04-30 12:22:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 To save a little bandwidth, a lengthy discussion raged back and forth on the topic yesterday here at Rantburg (Photos show jail abuse by US troops), and I think covered most of the opinions of:
1. those who love our military, are proud of its self-policing disciplinary standards, and think the fallout from this will be minimal or should be ignored; and
2. those who love our military, are proud of its self-policing disciplinary standards, and think the fallout from this will be pretty bad and should be immediately addressed by the POTUS.

Posted by cingold 2004-04-30 12:27:42 PM|| 2004-04-30 12:27:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 In other news
Meanwhile, an Iraqi police colonel, Ahmad al-Khazraji, was shot dead Thursday night in downtown Baghdad, the U.S. command said Friday. The body of a Baghdad area council member was found hung with a sign on his chest that said "al-Mahdi Army business," a reference to al-Sadr's militia

Lets not forget
1. The horrors the "insurgents" are perpetrating.
2. The courage of the Iraqis, like these two, who are cooperating with the Coalition to rebuild their country

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-30 12:52:32 PM|| 2004-04-30 12:52:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 I think most of us are on the same page generally, but there is disagreement about whether we should care what effect these photos will have on the perception of the US and its military among arabs and the rest of the world. Some people say, "who gives a damn what they think, they hate us anyway." Its true that they hate us anyway, and rant and rave without justification against us. Other people are totally concerned about how the rest of the world percieves us and don't want to do anything without the UN's approval. This attitude would neuter the US and prevent us from protecting our own interests. I think most people fall somewhere in between: we don't think the world's perception of the US and our military is the most important thing--the ultimate concern, but we recognize that how we are percieved is an important part of the war on terror. There are some hearts and minds that cannot be won. Those hearts and minds need a bullet inserted into them at high velocity. But, in the long term, over the decades to come, it is important that the average arab comes to doubt the atrocious lies that the Al-Qaeda types will continue to spread. We want a middle east that is generally sane (friendly is too much to hope for). If there is a substantial population of sane arabs who don't necessarily like the US, but don't think we are the hateful bullies portrayed in these photos, we are all better off. It is not crazy, or bleeding-heart to be concerned when the enemy gains ammunition in the perception war. I don't want the terrorists to obtain weapons of mass destruction, and these photos will be uses as weapons of mass deception. I'm totally bummed by this whole thing.

Posted by sludj 2004-04-30 1:06:51 PM|| 2004-04-30 1:06:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Be of good cheer, fellas!
President Bush has come out and spoken out strongly about this today:
Bush Feels 'Disgust' at Abuse of Iraqis

Your President has heard your cries, sludj, cingold, Anon1, etc.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-30 3:01:19 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-30 3:01:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I imagine that the average Iraqi will scratch their head and wonder that the US gets so upset at what are very miner crimes compared to what Saddam and his thugs pulled off. I think the average Arab will probably think the same thing.

They may play the humiliated Arab card in front of the press, but I have to think that down deep our response that this is bad, etc, etc, does far more good towards our cause than the crimes committed by these bad GIs.

Posted by Ruprecht 2004-04-30 4:21:14 PM|| 2004-04-30 4:21:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 They are so used to being lied to by their govts, Al Jazeera, Al Arabiya, etc, how seriously do you think that the Arabs will take this? A few in the English speaking elites will have access to CNN and will be able to ascertain that it's a true story. The rest? How will they be able to tell it from any other propaganda scam? This will blow over in a few days.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-30 5:42:47 PM|| 2004-04-30 5:42:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 11A5S: The difference is that this time the Arab press can report that the White House and President have acknowledged that the incident was real. Al Jazeera happily reported that admission by the White House in their english-version website today (I tried to post the link on Rantburg but it didn't show up). I think the President used exactly the right tone though: "disgusted" is a powerful word and conveys the idea that America expects professionalism from its military, expects legal treatment of prisoners of war, and will punish violators severely. That won't erase the damage, but it is the best we can do to limit the extent of damage at this point.

Posted by sludj 2004-04-30 7:04:22 PM|| 2004-04-30 7:04:22 PM|| Front Page Top

17:01 Mark Espinola
14:26 Seafarious
14:08 Anonymous6089
12:57 Frank G
12:30 .com
12:14 Anonymous5203
00:06 cingold
23:41 Anonymous4731
11:52 Robert Crawford
11:45 Infidel Bob
11:43 Infidel Bob
07:06 B
06:59 Dave D.
06:49 Anonymous4617
06:29 Bulldog
05:21 Anonymous4617
05:15 Bulldog
03:26 Mark Espinola
02:45 ex-lib
01:21 ex-lib
01:19 Tresho
00:33 Super Hose
00:33 Paul Moloney
00:32 Super Hose