Article

2004-03-31 Iraq-Jordan

Ghastly barbaric murder of four foreigners in Falluja Iraq

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Posted by dw 2004-03-31 9:19:01 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Chanting "Fallujah is the graveyard of Americans," residents cheered after the grisly assault on two four-wheel-drive civilian vehicles, which left both in flames. Others chanted, "We sacrifice our blood and souls for Islam."

Fine.

Posted by Rawsnacks 2004-03-31 9:54:48 AM|| 2004-03-31 9:54:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 These people are Savages.

We won't change our Ops to compensate for this fact. We don't have the will to go "Roman" on them.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-03-31 10:01:08 AM|| 2004-03-31 10:01:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Who is the straw that stirs the drink in Falluja?

Posted by eLarson 2004-03-31 10:33:11 AM|| 2004-03-31 10:33:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 deep breath

Just as with Black Hawk Down the first thing I thought of when I heard the story on the news was a vignette in Huckleberry Finn - so I've put it up as an excerpt, just in case anyone is inclined to read it.

You already know what I'd prefer to do with the Sunni Triangle. Up to now, we've been skirmishing, mainly because there are no Arabs on the planet, including the Iraqis and particulary these Sunni Ba'athists, who can withstand more than a few moments in a stand-up fight with the US Military. Our armed forces swept through their pathetic "country" like a wildfire through dry grass. No, all they can manage are sniping, ambushes, and cowardly acts against (mainly unarmed) civilians. Fallujah and the other dens of snakes in the Triangle are striving mightily, IMHO, daring us to make an example of them. Whatever we decide to do, the key is to just do it, hard, fast, and without hesitation. If they decide to wipe the Triangle off the map, I'll work up a tear for the fodder who hide the snakes. Later.

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 10:38:40 AM|| 2004-03-31 10:38:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Iraqis chant anti-American slogans as charred bodies hang from a bridge over the Euphrates River in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, Wednesday, March 31 2004. Enraged Iraqis in this hotbed of anti-Americanism killed four foreigners Wednesday, including at least one U.S. national, took the charred bodies from a burning SUV, dragged them through the streets, and hung them from the bridge.

I hope we have a response to this.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-03-31 10:44:26 AM|| 2004-03-31 10:44:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 My druthers? First that bridge comes down - NOW - with a cruise missile. then Fallujah is evacuated and ground to dust - no remnants. Salt the earth. Build the highway to bypass the site, but close enough so everyone can see the sign posted:
"4 dead civilians = death and destruction til you've had enough, F*&kers!"

Posted by Frank G 2004-03-31 10:51:04 AM|| 2004-03-31 10:51:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I remember once reading about how horse messengers who served in the Mongol Army of Ghenghis Khan were treated in the conquered lands: With a lot of respect.

I think some disaffected locals once ambushed one of these messengers. I don't remember the details of Ghenghis Khan's response - I think it was something like killing every human being and animal, and leveling to the ground every man made object within one day's ride of the spot where his messenger was waylaid.

I too am getting tired of watching the US military's body count inexorably mount, while we
continue to be "nice guys." I would now support an awe-inspiring spectacle being made out of the entire Sunni Triangle. Torch the place, and sow salt into the ground so that nothing grows there for another 1,000 years.

Posted by Lone Ranger 2004-03-31 10:58:28 AM|| 2004-03-31 10:58:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Why wasn't the photographer who took that picture lynched? Was he from one of the Arab "news" services? Has anyone figured out which particular bunch of nutjobs was involved?

Either the people of Fallujah lynch those responsible, or we have a duty to humanity to remove Fallujah from the planet.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-03-31 11:08:30 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-03-31 11:08:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 And the Marines are enthusiastic about, one, maintaining security, but more enthusiastic about the second aspect of that, which is getting on with the notion of providing support in that region, so that all citizens in the Al Anbar province, all citizens in the town of Fallujah will not be terrorized by a small number of insurgents, but in fact can profit from the significant amount of civic action projects that they can bring into the town of Fallujah.

Most human beings in such situations simply keep their heads down. Did we remove all the "innocent bystander" Germans from the planet? Japanese? All those who see those as models for the Iraqi occupation must take a deep breath and reflect. The left will use as this a call to run. The right will use this as a call to take the kinds of actions that will win sympathy for the america haters everywhere, that will make it impossible to govern Iraq, and pursue our other goals in the WOT.

What is needed is persistence and resolve, painful though it is. To pursue and punish those who are GUILTY BY THEIR ACTIONS. This may take much tougher actions than we are doing now - including curfews, home bulldozings,mass arrests etc. It does NOT require that we fail to distinguish the innocent from the guilty.

Go Marines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 11:16:44 AM|| 2004-03-31 11:16:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 How about letting a number of units of Peshmerga and the Badr brigade wipe the floor with a few hundred Fallujans?

Posted by Cog 2004-03-31 11:39:00 AM|| 2004-03-31 11:39:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Better yet - riase a brigade or so of Kurds - and give THEM responsibility for Fallujah...after we've sealed the place off.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-03-31 11:45:59 AM|| 2004-03-31 11:45:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 The video has been shown on french networks ; it is ghastly, with a (small) hysterical mob throwning stones at the car, dragging mutilated, burnt, bodies, hitting them with clubs and shovels, showing dogtags, all the while seeming very happy. Gruesome. Apparently, they dismembered them. The two victims are said to be civilians working for the coallition.
I truly hope the US authorities will use that video to get back at the perps, te same as israelis did for the lynching of the two reservists, back at the beginning og the "intifada". Btw, the "point" noted by the commentator on LCI (french continouus news channel) was that US public won't be shown that video, so not to bring back memories of Mogadiscio, and perception of the iraqi situation was distorted for americans.

Posted by Anonymous3973 2004-03-31 11:52:25 AM|| 2004-03-31 11:52:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 I don't think the Marines are going to take kindly to this kind of savagery. They are working to be good guys, but know that they will kick some serious ass when it is needed. I am confident that they will be rounding up the scum in the video and putting them through a a bit of hell. If there is resisitance, then heaven help the Fallugans.

Posted by remote man 2004-03-31 12:09:50 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:09:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I think James Cameron said it best in his script for "Aliens", when he had Ripley eloquently say,

"Nuke it from orbit...it's the only way to be sure."

Posted by Dripping sarcasm 2004-03-31 12:10:15 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:10:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Liberalhawk: The right will use this as a call to take the kinds of actions that will win sympathy for the america haters everywhere, that will make it impossible to govern Iraq, and pursue our other goals in the WOT.

This is liberal horse manure. The Japanese killed huge numbers of civilians during their campaigns in East Asia and essentially shut down the guerrillas in most parts that they occupied. The Soviets killed huge numbers of Ukrainians and finished off the Ukrainian resistance. The fact is that discriminatingly applied force works - flatten one town, cow a thousand has worked since the time of Genghis Khan. The people who hate the US aren't really motivated by new events - for them, the US is the root of all evil.

The Allies killed 500,000 civilians via bombings in Japan and 2 million civilians via bombings in Germany during WWII. The end result? Zero Japanese and German resistance in the postwar period.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-03-31 12:28:21 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:28:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Let's rent some Israeli bulldozers. Let the Israelis drive them. I suppose they'll have to go through Jordan first. Oh well.

Posted by (lowercase) matt 2004-03-31 12:28:44 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:28:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 LH -- I know the left gets all warm and moist when third-world thugs attack civilized people, but see that guy in the foreground of the photo? I don't care if he wandered into the area after the beasts were done with their blood festival; he's cheering, and that means he needs to die. The same goes for everyone else in that photo, and I'd be willing to extend that to the photographer, too, because I bet it turns out some of our old al'Jazeera/al'Arabiya friends were involved.

Civilization has to kill the barbarians, or the barbarians will win.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-03-31 12:36:34 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-03-31 12:36:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 If they catch the perps that participated in this, I suggest hanging them from that same bridge.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-03-31 12:46:35 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:46:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I would have first gotten eyes on target with a drone. Then I would have put together a JAAT mission on that bridge. I would have started with every tube within range and moved everything practical into range. Phase one would have been a ten-minute time on target mission with HE and WP, just to shake things up. Phase two: Fast movers and ICM to kill everything left on the bridge. Phase three: Rotary wing to machine gun anything left moving. Phase four: Evacuate everyone in town, man, woman, and child. Put them behind barbed wire and start sorting them out. The leaders and henchmen go to prison camps in the Kurdish north and Shia south. You won't have any problems with the folks left.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-03-31 12:46:42 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:46:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 This is one of those days where some subconscious internal cogitations occur. The external indicator is that I suddenly had the impulse, after hearing the lead-in to this story 50 times on Fox cable, to mute the sound and play music while browsing RB. Appropriately, THIS is what was on at the moment that I was prompted to comment, again. You Oldsters out there - enjoy the memory trip...

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 12:47:32 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:47:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 RC - im a patriot and a Zionist and a firm hater of the terrorists - dont go with this warm and moist stuff to me - I agree with LD, whoever did this should HANG from that bridge themselves.
And if some of the folks who cheered suffer from the inevitable crackdown in Fallujah, you wont hear me complaining. But cheering, even for evil,isnt a crime worthy of death. Thats what makes us civilized, and the other side barbarians.

ZF - IIUC the Japanese had to maintain a large occupation presence in all the counties they held. Need i remind you that Bush and Rumsfeld DO NOT intend to occupy Iraq indefinitely - nor do we intend to have US troops occupy Egypt, Algeria, etc.

As for the USSR, we are not totalitarians. You use the methods of stalin, you end up with a stalininst society. You want to become like the USSR, because some bastards mutilated a few corpses?

And yup, we dropped plenty of bombs in WW2. and we did in afghanistan and IRaq as well, of which i approved. And we will probably do so again. But we do NOT do so with the intention of murdering civilians. Even in Dresden there were strategic targets.

In any case we did NOT occupy Dresden when we targeted it. Occupation is different from conventional war. You simply cant do the things during an occupation you can during a conventional war. If we dont have the stomach for it, we had better get out now.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 12:56:34 PM|| 2004-03-31 12:56:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 This is really simple:
- surround the Sunni Triangle.
- give everyone 2 weeks in the Sunni Triangle to vacate.
- Search everyone and everything that leaves.
- Put up tent cities for those who leave.
- Low altitude neutron bombs over every village and city.
- MOAB the larger cities.
- hand those who left a $5 billion dollars to clean up the mess.
- if the terrorism contines...do it again.

Posted by AKScott 2004-03-31 1:12:34 PM|| 2004-03-31 1:12:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 This is really simple:
- surround the Sunni Triangle.
- give everyone 2 weeks in the Sunni Triangle to vacate.
- Search everyone and everything that leaves.
- Put up tent cities for those who leave.
- Low altitude neutron bombs over every village and city.
- MOAB the larger cities.
- hand those who left a $5 billion dollars to clean up the mess.
- if the terrorism contines...do it again.

Posted by AKScott 2004-03-31 1:12:35 PM|| 2004-03-31 1:12:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 at least, today I am absolutlely sure that the current administration WILL instruct the US military to respond to this...appropriately and quickly. and I believe that that the Iraqi's know that response will be coming too. Its been a long time since the world knew that there was a price to pay when you mess with the US, but today I think that there is little doubt in the world anymore. It is a small comfort, but it is about time.

Posted by mas 2004-03-31 1:13:09 PM|| 2004-03-31 1:13:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 im a patriot and a Zionist and a firm hater of the terrorists - dont go with this warm and moist stuff to me

Then you're part of the smallest minority on the left. Maybe you should drop the "liberal" part of your name.

I agree with LD, whoever did this should HANG from that bridge themselves.

And so should their fathers, their mothers, their brothers, their sisters, and every damned other person who didn't turn the animals over to authorities. Call it "aiding and abetting" if you need to hang a name to their crime.

But cheering, even for evil,isnt a crime worthy of death.

Yes, it is. Those folks are encouraging it, supporting it; they should suffer for that, so that others won't support the animals.

If we dont have the stomach for it, we had better get out now.

Yep. And punishing this kind of crap is what we had better have the stomach for.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-03-31 1:34:03 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-03-31 1:34:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 at least, today I am absolutlely sure that the current administration WILL instruct the US military to respond to this...appropriately and quickly.

Really? I expect we'll do almost nothing. Maybe a raid, maybe a few arrests; certainly nothing to make Fallujah suffer for letting the beasts make it their lair.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-03-31 1:35:27 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-03-31 1:35:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 RC - I know im a in a minority - but hell, im used to that and it doesnt bother me. Opposition to terrorism is a natural expression of liberalism - see Paul Bermans "Liberalism and Terror" or almost anything written lately by Christopher Hitchens. I continue to be a liberal for a range of reasons, most of which are not on topic here.

Aiding and abbeting - yup, thats a crime, but not a hanging one.

those who encourage should suffer - like i said, if the locals suffer from the curfews and other aspects of the crackdown, you wont hear me complaining. There are punishments short of death, you realize? I dont opppose the death penalty, but i dont see it as appropriate to EVERY crime.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 2:08:03 PM|| 2004-03-31 2:08:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I'm with LH and with Fred. The perps die. No argument; find them and kill them. We don't need to hang them on the bridge, a newspaper notice afterwards will do: "we found them and we shot them. Bodies may be claimed at the local morgue."

We don't necessarily kill the ones who cheered, unless we find that they had some part in this. Then they die. If we find that they're part of the jihadi/Ba'athist movement, we squeeze 'em dry like a tube of toothpaste. LH says that if aiding and abetting is not a capital crime -- mebbe, depends on how much they aided and abetted.

It's a war zone, and the people who did this are irregular combatents. We have the right to shoot them on sight. I don't endorse indiscriminate killing, I don't endorse killing innocents, and I don't endorse killing those who came to the bridge afterwards and cheered -- far better that they absorb the lesson we're going to impart to the active participants, and live to teach their children "don't ever, ever mess with the Americans."

Posted by Steve White 2004-03-31 2:19:39 PM|| 2004-03-31 2:19:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 "Really? I expect we'll do almost nothing. Maybe a raid, maybe a few arrests; certainly nothing to make Fallujah suffer for letting the beasts make it their lair."

Robert Crawford has it right, and that's part of the problem. So does 115S have it right...and of course on the broader question Liberalhawk also has it right.

The time to respond was during the incident. I am surprised that there was no contingency plan for an event like this. This should not have been a surprise to any one...it was coming.

But a rapid reaction force should have gone in all guns blazing...anyone around the bridge would have been fair game. But it had to be done then. Immediately.

Of course we would have all then been seeing pictures of "poor innocents," killed at the bridge....but at least it would have sent the correct message.

Alas, a real oppertunity missed.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-31 2:23:44 PM|| 2004-03-31 2:23:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Steve -- I want their great-grandchildren to wake up screaming from the nightmares they have over what Americans will do if they piss us off.

This kind of crap -- attacking civilians who were there to repair the basic functions of the city then parading the bodies around like they're lions you killed with your bare hands -- is a declaration that they do not want to be treated like civilized people. We should recognize their preference, and respond as they wish us to.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-03-31 2:33:57 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-03-31 2:33:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 O.K., I have to say a few things here. When one hears news, and sees images like this, it is understandable to want complete Dire Revenge. I'm just as pissed off as you are. However, carpet bombing the place, burning down the place, killing all the peoples' involved relatives, and bringing up "nukes" isn't going to help anything but make the situation worse. Whether we like it or not, we are going to have to depend on the help of the Iraqi people, as well as others in the Muslim world to help us on the war on terror.

The people who perpertrated this crime need to be brought to justice, and like I said before, I would like nothing better than to see them hanging from the same bridge. However, bystanders also warrant punishment, but not to the same extent. I also think the people of Fallujah need to be warned that unless they decide to join the civilized world, we will no longer help them with food, electricity, or water till we see that they are ready to co-operate. And then we need to make good with the threat if no change occurs.

RC, I know plenty of liberals that are hawks. Yes, it's true that the majority we hear now a days are peaceniks, but they are not all that way. Joe Lieberman is just as hawkish as any Republican out there as an example.

P.S. I'm Republican.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-03-31 2:46:53 PM|| 2004-03-31 2:46:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Robert...you are so right. They are subhuman.

and unfortunately Traveller is right...we will likely do nothing more than what he has described....which will encourage them to do more of the same.

You have to treat the cockroaches like cockroaches.

Posted by AKScott 2004-03-31 2:51:40 PM|| 2004-03-31 2:51:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 [Troll droppings deleted]

Posted by Franklin TROLL 2004-03-31 2:57:59 PM|| 2004-03-31 2:57:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Interesting points gents. Personally, after witnessing the dead bodies being molested by the enemy I would have moved in a Marine Battalion on-line w/supporting arms and secured that bridge and thus recovered *OUR DEAD*. Second, any resistance would be put down w/absolute force. Anyone caught defiling our dead would be shot on sight. To let them do that and not respond w/in an hour of learning of the incident is incomprehensible to me, but again, I'm not in the Combat Ops Center (coc) of the command there.

Next, I would call martial law, 1900 curfews, & house to house searches w/Iraqi military who can really do the dirty work. All Fallujian's who show respect will be given respect in return, otoh, all trouble-makers and shit-heads should be pulverized and made an example of. Remember, we are not dealing w/Judeo-Christian westerners, meet and beat them on their own terms and in concepts they understand.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-03-31 3:01:03 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:01:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 No Jones, actually nine people died because of asshole sunnis. Typical moron you are, blame the gun but not the user, get a life tool.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-03-31 3:05:16 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:05:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 You know, maybe Lil Dhimmi has a point. Cut off all basic services to the city of Fallujah, or just let them fall into disrepair...pull everyone out, and let a state of anarchy exist.

As a practical matter, being a practical man, I am still undecided if check points should go up refusing to allow people to leave. However, maybe no food staples should be allowed into Fallujah, and let the exodus begin.

Since the correct moment was missed on when to react...I'm trying to find out what now...arrest? I just don't see it.

Starve the city into non-existence. That's the ticket. Really...you don't have to kill anybody, no terrible reprisals....just no food in, no basic services and create a ghost town.

Works for me.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-31 3:05:58 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:05:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Actually, Lil Dhimmi, starving civilians and denying them basic services are major breaches of the Geneva Conventions. The "brave Arab warriors" on the bridge were irregular combatants engaged in gross violations of the Geneva Convention. Attacking the lynch mob could have been justified under the "reprisals" articles or under these articles:
80. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Engage in Hostilities
Persons, such as guerrillas and partisans, who take up arms and commit hostile acts without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), are, when captured by the injured party, not entitled to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment.

81. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Commit Hostile Acts
Persons who, without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), commit hostile acts about or behind the lines of the enemy are not to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment. Such acts include, but are not limited to, sabotage, destruction of communications facilities, intentional misleading of troops by guides, liberation of prisoners of war, and other acts not falling within Articles 104 and 106 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Article 29 of the Hague Regulations.

82. Penalties for the Foregoing
Persons in the foregoing categories who have attempted, committed, or conspired to commit hostile or belligerent acts are subject to the extreme penalty of death because of the danger inherent in their conduct. Lesser penalties may, however, be imposed.
Whether or not it's barbaric, it's the law as defined by the Geneva Conventions.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-03-31 3:13:27 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:13:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 sabotage, destruction of communications facilities, intentional misleading of troops by guides, liberation of prisoners of war, and other acts not falling within Articles 104 and 106 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Article 29 of the Hague Regulations

nothing about cheering barbarities.

I agree with JH and others who say we would have been within our rights to attack the bridge while this was happening. Like JH, i am reluctant to second guess the commander on the ground.

Starvation may not be allowed, but there are other collective punishments that i think are quite possible. Iraq is still short of electricity - why should Fallujah get ANY while neighborhoods in Baghdad are going without? If anyone complains about hospitals, all non-emergency patients can go to hospitals in Baghdad, and emerg can go to US military facilities. Ditto no economic reconstruction, no water improvements, etc. There are far too many other parts of Iraq that need those resources.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 3:25:49 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:25:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 A great deal can be done without bringing in MOAB, nukes, or even a general attack on the population.

The Iraqi "Black Flag" organization, commonly described as "anti-terrorist vigilantes" and therefore regarded as outlaws, could be contacted through back channels, provided with all relevant information, and offered a quid pro quo to clean up some of this.
Black Flag is primarily a Shiite organization and would have difficulty operating in Fallujah but with the right incentive and some discrete help, it might be possible.
At the very least, the savages who can be positively identified in these photos should be killed and the bridge destroyed. The primary targets, however, should be the inciters, the local propagandists and clerics who are otherwise immune from retaliation.

The relative helplessness of the allies in responding to this kind of outrage, a product of our own humanity, is the mob's primary motive. It plays to media prejudice as well. The mob is essentially taunting us for our restraint and gloating that the world media and PC indoctrination keep them from being mowed down in the streets, as would happen in almost any Arab-ruled country if government personnel were attacked in this fashion.

It is also responding to the fantastic atrocity propaganda emanating from the Arab media, like the Baghdad rag that was shut down a few days ago. These inciters have the full support and protection of the western media and their post-60s re-definition of "free speech."
It is time to bring back the doctrine of "fire in a crowded theatre", defy the left-monopoly media and their pious dope-culture "ethics" and attack this at its roots.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-03-31 3:28:13 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:28:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Well, I still like Fallujah as a Ghost town, starved not into submission...rather starved into non-esistence.

I will accept 11a5S's reference to the Geneva Conventions. In which case, as Jarhead, myself and others have noted, the correct response was to take the war to the Bridge...but immediately.

Unlike Jarhead, I will blame the commander on the ground. It would have been a tough decision to be sure, but that is what he is paid for.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-31 3:38:59 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:38:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 "The relative helplessness of the allies in responding to this kind of outrage, a product of our own humanity, is the mob's primary motive"

Is it? The Zarqawi memo about killing Shiites didnt make reference to the helpless liberal humanity of the Shiites - it is clear that attacks on Shiites are DESIGNED to provoke revenge killings on Sunnis, with the hope that the entire Sunni population would rally to AQ. Everything about AQ suggests that they are prepared for and hope to benefit from our lashing back at that them. Though they apparently also think that if we run a la Mogadishu thats still a victory. What beats them is when we can thread the needle between surrender and revenge. Which, I must say, the Bush admin did so well in Afghanistan.

Its not PC indoctrination that keeps us from mowing people down in the streets, al a Assad or Saddam. Its our own civilization. What we have to do is use that as a STRENGTH - to show everyone else in Iraq that we are strong enough to bring justice to the perps, we DONT take Dire Revenge.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 3:39:29 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:39:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 I say level the whole town with b-52s

Posted by CobraCommander 2004-03-31 3:46:48 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:46:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 No, Liberalhawk, I must disagree...sometimes it is a question of the greatest good for the greatest number...Bringing our Liberal traditions, (and I see this as a Liberal War for Liberal Ideals), to Iraq is a good thing. To acomplish that sometimes requires stern measures.

I refer you to the end of the Gallic Wars where Caesar said, Volume 8, sections 34-44, "Caesar was aware that his clemency was well-known to all, and so he was not afraid of being considered cruel by nature if on this occasion he took severe measures." And so, "All those who had carried weapons had their hands cut off, but their lives were spared so that everyone might see how evil-doers were punished."

Caesar set the 5,000 or so handless men from Uxellodunum wandering all of Gaul as beggars and the Gallic Rebellions were over.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-31 3:55:30 PM|| 2004-03-31 3:55:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Well spoken, liberalhawk.

Posted by Evert Visser in NL 2004-03-31 3:58:11 PM|| [http://chinditz.buzznet.com/user/] 2004-03-31 3:58:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 In my opinion, it was a baited attack. The crowd and bodies on the bridge were the bait. They hoped we would attempt to disperse the crowd and recover the bodies. Every mounted avenue of approach was probably mined with IEDs. Every potential landing zone was surrounded with RPG toting jihadis waiting to reprise Blackhawk Down.

The town should not have been levelled Liberalhawk, but the crowd on the bridge was an armed irregular force. I would have no problem ordering an attack on them using air and artillery. The jihadis never would use that tactic again. Then as I stated above, I would go into town and find the leadership. Whether we turn them over to the Iraqis or use military tribunals is immaterial to me.

All reprisals against civilian populations are prohibited under the GC, period. Witholding additional aid may or may not be a reprisal depending on whether or not it affects basic human needs. Access to health care, for example, is strongly protected:

To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring and maintaining, with the cooperation of national and local authorities, the medical and hospital establishments and services, public health and hygiene in the occupied territory, with particular reference to the adoption and application of the prophylactic and preventive measures necessary to combat the spread of contagious diseases and epidemics. Medical personnel of all categories shall be allowed to carry out their duties.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-03-31 4:19:48 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:19:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 I like the idea of sending in the Marines to recover our dead. Anyone trying to stop them or anyone molesting a body again gets shot on sight. Then to drive the point home, I'd leave a pile of pig guts in the offenders mouth. That will get their attention.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-03-31 4:25:52 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:25:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Essentially, this thread began just about a year ago when the Sunni Triangle got a pass - and barely felt the effects of the war. Certainly it was not pacified...

Back in May or June 2003 some of us said the things that are being said today - and were ripped for it. I certainly was. The difference between then and now? Nothing. Not. A. Fucking. Thing.

The comments here are Westerners talking to Westerners - using Western ideas and rules - and where to draw the line seems to be the point for many. A non-apologist Arabist would laugh his ass off and simply say, "Line? You're drawing a line? Then you've already lost."

We've tried the "hearts and minds" approach - for almost a year. It just doesn't work with these people, these Muslims - and it doesn't matter if were talking about Sunnis or Shi'a. You will not "win" here. You will receive no love for what you do. The question is one of grief and the level of grief you receive is a simple function: how much of what they want are you giving them? Period. They, including the currently "semi-pacified" Shi'a, cooperate when it serves them, and don't when it doesn't. If the situation changes with the Shi'a, it will be this simple formula at work and all of our laudable efforts won't mean dick. Of even less value is the credit given them for their previous behavior - it was in their interests then. All of the blather about Sistani is a good guy and so-and-so is a good guy, blah3. Wrong. Are they getting what they want - that is the equation. Period. If not, then the situation will change to reflect that fact.

Remember, duplicity is a hallmark of this society, of Islam everywhere. Today, just prior to the attack and prolly very close to the location, some Marines were prolly doing good deeds and chatting amiably with the locals. They were prolly cooperative - maybe even happy to work with the Marines. Then an instigator, one of their Muslim brothers, lights off an event. The same guy who was smiling and helping an hour ago is now dancing on the bridge and mugging for the press.

Why? Why not? As long as he's with you, he's your buddy. When he's with the other Muslims, he's their buddy. If there's any doubt, he's one of them. He'd drop you in the grease in a heartbeat. There are exceptions - fewer than most here think - and they are the only weight I feel when I advocate the hard line.

It's that simple. He doesn't respect you. He doesn't listen to you or believe you. He has no reason to - you don't live there and your impact has been minimal, thus far, in his world. Fix everything! Faster! I have no investment in this effort! I am free to criticize you because I want what I want and you have accepted responsibility to provide it for me. Hurry the fuck up!

Wanna change them? Really? This is where the rubber meets the road: MAKE them respect you. What do they respect? Power. Nothing else. Wield power and you have their attention - at least as long as you're right there in front of them. Wield it ruthlessly and without any LINES, and you begin to gain their respect in the form of fear. They will never love you. We are quibbling about Western ideas. They do not mean dick there in Irak. Give that up. They can learn to fear / respect you, but you have to be ruthless. Sorry, but that's the truth of it.

Okay, sorry for the wind.

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 4:40:51 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:40:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 #37 . . . Whether or not it's barbaric, it's the law as defined by the Geneva Conventions.
No, it is not barbaric -- it is the natural response of normal humans to barbaric acts. The only question is how to find the perpetrators of sedition, rebellion, and (yes) unlawful resistance (note: all lawful resistance ended when the uniforms came off). The solution for those found guilty of sedition, rebellion, and unlawful resistance is simple and natural -- execution. But, as to how to find the guilty, I say we borrow the tactics of Col. Steve and ring the town with barb wire (and slowly section it off with barb wire, bit by bit) in manageable increments. I.E., go in with enough force to slowly and methodically, completely search block by block for weapons, documents, and people -- we have probable cause; the rest should be done mechanically without delay, and without relent. In the end, there will be no weapons in Fallujah, and no people go in or out of Fallujah who have not been IDâd, and who havenât been interrogated and cross-checked. Iâm not military, so I donât know if that is workable, but I think it would work and it would not violate the provisions of the Geneva convention. Oh, yah, right, one more thing: Anyone found guilty of sedition, rebellion, and unlawful resistance gets hung until dead from that bridge (which is forevermore the sole use of the bridge).

Posted by cingold 2004-03-31 4:48:09 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:48:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 .com
Wow. You hit the nail on the head. Well done.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-03-31 4:52:50 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:52:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 While I'm tempted to encourage the USMC to use these incidents to address the serious lack of adequate parking lots in the greater Fallujah area, I think our approach should be to cordon the city (I don't know if that's realistic given the size of the city), search everyone coming and going, do a house to house search for weapons and contraband, institute up-armored patrols in the city and arrest every person who showed up in those pictures. All of this should be done after we have recovered the remains of those defiled by these thugs.

P.S. - When will we hear the condemnation of these attacks from the IGC? al-Sadr? al-Sistani?

Posted by Tibor 2004-03-31 4:53:07 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:53:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 A city the size of Fallujah, without water, power, fuel, or sewage control, would be just what they want a stinking shithole of Sunni superiority.

I say we give it to them. Back to the 7th century assholes

Posted by Frank G 2004-03-31 4:55:32 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:55:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 .com, well said. Power, force, ruthless aggression in their face whenever challenged. The law of the pack is what they know. Jesus would turn the other cheek but we ain't Jesus (once said by a crusty old leatherneck). The most important component - the willingness to use the above factors without hesitation.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-03-31 4:59:05 PM|| 2004-03-31 4:59:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 We need to find these people and summarily shoot them.

Then send Kerry over to 'apologize' to them.......

BTW: What does the UN and Amnistyt International have to say about this attack in unarmed civilians? (silence.....).

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-03-31 5:00:36 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:00:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 CrazyFool, I think Dick Clarke is better at apologizing. He could be our "special envoy" to Greater Fallujah...

Faster please!

Posted by Seafarious 2004-03-31 5:08:39 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:08:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 "You will receive no love for what you do. The question is one of grief and the level of grief you receive is a simple function: how much of what they want are you giving them? Period. They, including the currently "semi-pacified" Shi'a, cooperate when it serves them, and don't when it doesn't. If the situation changes with the Shi'a, it will be this simple formula at work and all of our laudable efforts won't mean dick. Of even less value is the credit given them for their previous behavior - it was in their interests then. All of the blather about Sistani is a good guy and so-and-so is a good guy, blah3. Wrong. Are they getting what they want - that is the equation. Period. If not, then the situation will change to reflect that fact."

basically i agree. But i dont see it as particularly limited to muslims - thats the nature of politics, at least politics not under control of an established stable democratic state. Thats renaissance Italy, thats colonial Africa and India, thats politics in Latin America. Dog eat dog. I never said Sistani or anyone else is a "good" guy - least i hope i didnt - but a REASONABLE guy - one who understands cause and effect and who is willing to pursue their own long term best interests.

Maybe Im too influenced by the Federalist papers, or De Toqueville - i dont see the basis of politics in human goodness, but in human self interest. And i recognize that in circumstances of war, or disorder, or life in a dictatorship, or in the kind of uncertainty you find in Iraq, that pursuit of self interest necessarily is intensely Machiavellian. Youre too close to a "state of nature" - a war of all against all - which is dictated BY the state of nature, and not by one culture or another. Again, if we DONT HAVE THE STOMACH for this, then lets pull a Zapatero, get out now, and focus our efforts on policing the borders, et al. If we're going to play imperialist we have to deal with shit, and we have to do it cooly, and we have to well, play the game. I think we need to play it more Brit style than Roman in this era, for a lot of reasons, but i can see the arguement for occasionally going Roman, though even the Romans (as pointed out above) only did it occasionally.

Are we westerners talking to westerners- sure. But not all of the muslim world is Saudi. SOme places are more westernized than others. IRaq has Fallujah, and it also has baghdad. and Kurdistan.

Look - the USMC insists that you do have to play hearts and minds. They know better than i do, and i think than you do. Right now on other sites i see lefties saying, see, they hate us, we should leave, its just like we said. Basically I see you saying the same thing, dot com, though your attitude and recommendations are different. I respond the same way - look at the big picture, look at the good news as well as the bad, not all Iraq is Fallujah, etc. I see panic, left wing panic and right wing panic, when what we need is to stick it out.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 5:09:15 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:09:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 When will we hear the condemnation of these attacks from the IGC? before the next press cycle al-Sadr? never al-Sistani? in two weeks, after hemming and hawing

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 5:11:20 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:11:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 dotcom I'm with you on this one. I particularily like the idea of the "Line," that by even trying to determine where it is, we lose. Which isn't so bad, (win some-lose some), but the truth is that Iraq is going to be the loser and the larger world itself will be the biggest loser.

Tibor asks, "When will we hear the condemnation of these attacks from the IGC? al-Sadr? al-Sistani?"

Well, I've been calling for their assassination for a long time now, just as a practical matter, so I'm the wrong person to ask this...but Tibor's point is well taken.

I also like cinegold's approach...but of course we won't do it. And there is the problem that most everyone misses...a mob is just having fun. It is something to do, a break in their everyday boring life routines. For all of the grieving and weeping and wailing afterwards, War itself is fun...especially for young men at lose ends with lots of time on their hands and needing a purpose in their lives.

However, while fun is fun, the idea must be gotten across that we will kill you if you have too much fun.

Posted by Traveller 2004-03-31 5:11:25 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:11:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 "The Zarqawi memo about killing Shiites didnt make reference to the helpless liberal humanity of the Shiites - it is clear that attacks on Shiites are DESIGNED to provoke revenge killings on Sunnis, with the hope that the entire Sunni population would rally to AQ"

Er, this was not an attack on Shiites, Liberalhawk, so the analogy is not relevant. Zarqawi would not have referred to the liberal traditions of the Shiites because there aren't any, not because such traditions are irrelevant in other circumstances.

"Everything about AQ suggests that they are prepared for and hope to benefit from our lashing back at that them."

Indeed, but what would it take for them to be right?

"Its not PC indoctrination that keeps us from mowing people down in the streets, al a Assad or Saddam. Its our own civilization. What we have to do is use that as a STRENGTH - to show everyone else in Iraq that we are strong enough to bring justice to the perps, we DONT take Dire Revenge."

Very authoritative tone, but this circumstance is not the same as shooting into a crowd of dissidents or even looters.
These are extreme acts of hostility and barbarism, they are illegal under the laws of every country and the perpetrators are not entitled to protection while engaged in the very act. As others have pointed out, harsher measures than those taken so far are legal under the Geneva Conventions, which certainly enshrine our real traditions. What is it then that prevents these measures? I think it is the complex of perceptions and standards inspired by recent media culture, indoctrination if you will, and my statement stands.

Beyond that, I was speculating about the mob's motives and I think my speculation is reasonable. That includes some inferences about their perceptions of our restraint, not our own perception of our motives.

We can't allow an enemy's perception of restraint as weakness to determine our actions, but we can't discount it either.

As for "dire revenge," didn't I say this:
"A great deal can be done without bringing in MOAB, nukes, or even a general attack on the population."
I should probably clarify that I meant "general attack on the population" to include suggestions like a blockade or starvation.

"What beats them is when we can thread the needle between surrender and revenge. Which, I must say, the Bush admin did so well in Afghanistan"

There is no clear demarcation between those extremes. Drawing a line, as we must, and beating them that way, requires that we recognize their perceptions; though, again, that should not be the only consideration.
Any action we take can be interpreted by hostile propaganda as revenge.
Conversely, any restraint can be interpreted by our own extremists as surrender.
There is a very large gap, however, between the measures I have suggested and "dire revenge" especially if we take account of real (as opposed to stated) perceptions among enemy sympathizers.
Would shooting at the mob to stop the desecration of the bodies really be the same as carpet-bombing the town or shooting hostages?

Legality does apply here, but it is the legality of war, not of the civil courts and due process.

I have suggested targeting the actual participants in these unlawful and violent acts of resistance. That is not due process as we safely invoke it here in the States, but neither was the killing in armed combat of thousands of Iraqi troops; or the assassinations of Yamamoto and Heydrich for that matter.
It is war and I believe these measures are legal and moral under the applicable standards. They therefore do not violate our traditional (as oppposed to recent media-imposed) standards of civilization.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-03-31 5:12:07 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:12:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Well said LH.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-03-31 5:13:44 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:13:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 By the way, there were a lot of well thought out comments on this thread. Good postings guys. I just think I agree more with LH on this one.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-03-31 5:20:24 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:20:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 .com,

I agree with every word of what you said, particularly about duplicity being intrinsic to their society and about the ultimate futility of the "hearts and minds" approach, especially one which isn't firmly grounded on the Colson Maxim ("Grab them by the balls, and their hearts and minds will gladly follow").

But.

Let's not give up yet. Because when we finally do give up, we will be giving up forever and completely.

Like I said last weekend: if we do decide, at the end of this Iraq experiment, that the Islamic world is intrinsically incapable of co-existing with us peacefully, and more major terrorist attacks on U.S. soil are perpetrated, the resulting war will not be a war of liberation or reform; it will be a war of annihilation. It will be total, savage, and very brief: an hour after that war starts, somewhere between a hundred million and a billion Muslims will be dead.

I suspect the experiment is going to fail, but I think we ought not to declare failure quite yet. When we do give up on these people, we want to be absolutely certain we've made a thorough, good-faith effort to make democracy work.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-03-31 5:22:58 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:22:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 .com: You are of course right. Western and Islamic cultures are almost entirely alien. One is based on the Rights of Man and the other is based on Might Makes Right.

I have watched our incursions into Iraq and Afghanistan with mixed feelings. I completely support the military goal of taking out the Taliban in Afghanistan and a major sponsor of by-proxy terror in Iraq. On the other hand, I have little or no faith in our experiments in civilizing the Muslims.

Ultimately, I think we need to use some Machiavellian ju jitsu on ol' Dar al Islam. I support Ralph Peters' strategy: Destabilize the region. Split up all of these phony nation states right down to the tribal level. Arm them all and let them kill each other off. Never let any Emirate or "Islamic Republic" get enough oil or capital to make nukes or for that matter, to be a threat in any way. And if Mahmoudstan does become a base for Al Qaeda or gets close to developing nukes, go in there with all of our might, crush them and get the hell out. Let them purify their own water and grow their own food.

We need energy independence to deal with the supply shocks of an Arab world constantly at war with itself. We need to shut off _all_ immigration, too. I think that those things are easy compared to "bringing democracy" to the Muslim world.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-03-31 5:26:51 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:26:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 LH - Panic? You certainly did not get that from what I wrote.

I do not advocate cut and run - exactly the opposite. I think the cordon idea makes sense. I advocated the sectioning / sweep idea way back in May 2003. I also suggested extremely harsh treatment of those who participate or shelter anyone involved in the (back then) support, hiding, storing materials, staging process for attacks in Baghdad area. Still makes sense - we haven't done it yet on a wide scale. We've tried the pinpoint approach, but that has not proven effective enough. Broaden the scope of the sweeps, cordon off the areas from which the terror is staged. Work it - and be meaner than a rattler every step of the way.

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 5:28:30 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:28:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 .com post #47 great stuff....and no apologies necessary. I don't hold much hope for it happening that way. We'll have to wait and see what the Marines are allowed to do about it. It would be nice to wake up tomorrow to breaking news of the mother of all pacification ops.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-03-31 5:32:08 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:32:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 11A5S - Amen. Every point and every word! There's the big picture LH - in different words and a slightly different perspective. I believe that there is little actual disagreement, here. We're just being Westerners and quibbling over the verbage, for the most part.

Dave - We will not cut and run. Either these shitheads will eventually figure out that it's in their interests to play along and learn a new game - or they won't and will suffer accordingly. Dubya's not going anywhere - unless November is a disaster and the cowards take over the US Gov't. In that case I'm leaving cuz I don't have enough time left to wait them out.

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 5:37:44 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:37:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 IIUC we are doing cordoning and have been for some time. But theres a limit to the areas you can cordon. You need alot of people to man a cordon of an entire city, or a section of Baghdad. We have only 100,000 troops in Iraq, including support (not all of whom are contractors) and theyve got alot to do. Things have gotten better as we have trained more Iraqis to help - and of course to keep recruiting it helps to be, if not liked, respected in a positive way. Oh and if we lose more Euros and have to take over the Shia south ourselves that will be a further drain on manpower.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-03-31 5:40:58 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:40:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Just up:
The four dead were all Americans, employees of Blackwater Security, a North Carolina firm that had been hired to protect food shipments in the Fallujah area.
I am still against our imposing a blockade of food shipments, but what about a self-inflicted blockade?

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-03-31 5:42:48 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:42:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 "In that case I'm leaving cuz I don't have enough time left to wait them out."

You're not planning on checking out anytime soon, are ya? I know the feeling of not looking at limitless horizons anymore. The years are numbered and I'm starting to pay more attention to making them count.

Which means I REALLY don't want to spend them in a "People's Republic of America" or whatever the Frankenpeople would call it if they ever get hold of the reins of power.

But where to go?

Posted by Dave D. 2004-03-31 5:45:51 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:45:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 By the way, anyone have a rough idea about how large a city Fallujah is?

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-03-31 5:47:26 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:47:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 LH - You're right - the peace is proving a greater strain on manpower than the war. The Iraqis, who rioted yesterday when Army signups were delayed - are going to prove crucial. If we show an Iraqi face in the process of sweeping, it will prolly be much skeerier to the locals than our good ol' jarheads. They know what sort of brutality their own are capable of. I think we just have to be completely implacable, relentless, and ruthless. Summary executions, something we haven't even considered (Hell, we drummed out a great Col for terrifying a prisoner in order to get intel to protect his men in harm's way...) as yet. Time to make it so - and let the slow boyz meet the hard boyz. I won't pretend to know more than the Marines or their leadership - I just know what I've experienced myself - the rest is speculation. Playing hardball works in my experience - this I know. If we need more boots, fill as much as possible with Iraqis. If more CA are required, then pull 'em out of fucking Germany and Iceland and wherever else we have excess. This matters and we only get one shot at it.

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 5:51:19 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:51:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 LD - anywhere between 200K and 500K according to Google search!!!!

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 5:54:05 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:54:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Dave D - Check out March / April edition of AARP magazine for a few excellent ideas.

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 5:56:31 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:56:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Thanks .com. I'm not being lazy, but I'm finishing up stuff here at work. A city that large is not easy to do house to house searches. Great comments all, I'm out of here.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-03-31 5:57:39 PM|| 2004-03-31 5:57:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 Great. I let my membership lapse last year. Oh, well.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-03-31 6:02:59 PM|| 2004-03-31 6:02:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 .com. I agree. Its time to take off the kid gloves and show them that we can, and will be 'sufficiently ruthless' in order to get their respect.

Doing the nice guy works only so far and at some point we have to show that we can kick ass and take names.

Somehow people get that idea that because we are nice to the civilians we are 'pushovers' and can be treated this way. This is due to Clinton and Kerry's willingness to have us bend over and take it up the ass. Time for someone to get bitchslapped.

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-03-31 6:09:07 PM|| 2004-03-31 6:09:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 It stengthens the parallel to Somalia that these folks were killed while guarding food shipments, the same basic consideration that led to the Somalia operation.
With that script available, it will be interesting to see how the media spin this.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-03-31 6:16:55 PM|| 2004-03-31 6:16:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 Dave D - I found it here without logging on...

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 6:17:22 PM|| 2004-03-31 6:17:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Wow. Outstandable. Checking out Spanish lessons right now...

Posted by Dave D. 2004-03-31 6:28:07 PM|| 2004-03-31 6:28:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 By the way, anyone have a rough idea about how large a city Fallujah is?

Fallujah has a population of 232,600. It's not Philadelphia, but it's not a small town, either.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-03-31 6:55:41 PM|| 2004-03-31 6:55:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Mark Steyn was on Hugh Hewitt's show this past hour. He said there was only one road in and one road out of Fallujah. Steyn had been there last year.

Posted by eLarson 2004-03-31 7:05:00 PM|| 2004-03-31 7:05:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Fairly simple.

Cordon. Search. Destroy and Clear.

Cordon the town, section by section. Barbed wire, armed troops.

Give the people inside the cordon 1 day to get out. They must turn over any and all weapons and compenents, no questions asked, total amnesty given.

Search the cordoned area after the 24 hours is up. Any homes with weapons or components found in it is bulldozed. Any armed resisters will be summarily shot or else hung by the neck until dead at their former front door.

Do one section a day.

Reclear on the fourth day.

After a week, allow the occupants back into the cleared section.

Total of 9 sections: 2 actively being searched, 5 guarded and empty, one being evacuated, one being repatriated.

Do this section by section until you have cleaned the whole town.

Put each section on notice that if it is the source of bombs, it will be sectioned, searched and cleared again.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-03-31 7:44:33 PM|| 2004-03-31 7:44:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 Now that's a plan! Hmmm. Sounds like you've done something very similar before - the math is impeccable - and not at all obvious! This approach can take down a city of 250K in a workable manner, too. Cool, OS, cool. 8-)

Yo, Sanchez. Listen up, my man!

Posted by .com 2004-03-31 7:52:50 PM|| 2004-03-31 7:52:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 Old Spook, take a look at this piece on the CIA's Phoenix Program used in Vietnam in '67.
Maybe you're familiar with it? ;-)
The American Thinker guy thinks it might be very useful in Fallujah, too.
Your thoughts?

Posted by Jen 2004-03-31 8:00:16 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-03-31 8:00:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 God help the families and friends of those guys.

I donât know who was taking pictures, or under what circumstances the photos ended up published "for all the world to see"-- but Iâm sure glad someone was there taking pics. ( A picture is worth a thousand words.)

MY FAVORITE POSTS (in order):

# 20 .com: Click on the link.

# 81 OldSpook: That'd work nicely!

# 47 .com: A well-reasoned and realistic evaluation.

# 15 Zhang Fei: Asians, though often underestimated, know stuff about this kind of stuff.

# 34 Jarhead: Practical and to the point.

# 61 Dave D.: Interesting perspective. âNo regretsâ is a good policy.

Liberalhawk, I appreciated your post # 38, but a very long occupation would be necessary to accomplish the major changes--the societal overhaul--you seem to advocate for in Iraq (i.e. enough time for several generations to live under the rule of the Americans), if it could happen at all. Iâm with you and some of the others about nailing the perps, and not everyone. BUT--my favorites (above) are still my favorites.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-03-31 8:10:28 PM|| 2004-03-31 8:10:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 11A5S, couldn't agree more. However a rider or two.
The UN Refugee policy needs to be scrapped. All that will happen is that the "leadership" will bolt to the West for safety and continue from there with the help of their Fifth Columnist buddies already in the West.
When the situation is really grim, we should volunteer to "protect" their oil assets, without getting involved in their "cultural activities" like dissecting corpses.
That especially means no humanitarian help of any sort. Any NGO who insists on going in, to do charity work, will do so at their own risk, without any help from the Western Military.
I'm sure we won't know too much about what is going on, as the meeja, will aalso have to go in at their own risk - no embedding.

Posted by tipper 2004-03-31 8:16:07 PM|| 2004-03-31 8:16:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 OldSpook, That is exactly what we should do. I just hope that we have the belly for it. This 'hearts and minds' game only goes so far.

Like the Phoenix article says -- the media and left are already blaming everything on us anyway. Its time we took off the farking gloves.

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-03-31 10:37:03 PM|| 2004-03-31 10:37:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 Excellent thread. Classics, Fred ?

Polls are almost closed, but I want to plug for 11A5S #62 as a great post also:

"Destabilize the region. Split up all of these phony nation states right down to the tribal level"

I had mentioned this several times in conversations with folks since 9/11, particularly with respect to Soddy Arabia. I call it "atomisation", not the nuke kind, but rather in line with your concept of reducing the "state" down to its fundamental social components, partly as a security measure and partly with the hope that in the future a better entity could be composed out of a different arrangement of the same components.

Posted by Carl in NH 2004-03-31 10:39:58 PM|| 2004-03-31 10:39:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 Tipper: Thanks for bringing up the NGOs. I forgot about them. They are the vanguard of the tranzi movement. They need to be kept on a short leash. We also don't need a bunch of wealthy "refugees", dipping into their Swiss bank accounts and corrupting politics here.

Carl: I agree. The best hope for the Islamic world is to start over from scratch. I see the example of the Germans and Japanese after WWII brought up a lot here. Those nations had already chosen modernity, even if they had screwed it up the first time. The Muslims, for the most part have not even gotten that far.

An intelligent, passionate, well-argued thread. Definitely a hall of famer, Fred.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-03-31 11:02:11 PM|| 2004-03-31 11:02:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 Do we still have any tanks there?

Ring w/barb wire.

Surround w/tanks.

Put up billboards of those who did this. Services cut off until all are handed over alive. Mark each pic off w/an "X."

Shoot a few of the main perps. Sprinkle over various parts of the city heavy at the bridge. All heads and a certain other piece of anatomy are on the bridge, w/said piece of anatomy stuffed into mouth.

Take the rest to GTMO.

Do you think it's too over the top to suggest they should be happy we didn't send them back lathered in pig fat?

Posted by Anonymous2u 2004-03-31 11:54:12 PM|| 2004-03-31 11:54:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 As to the Geneva convention not allowing this, aren't we still discussing what a "civilian" is?

Posted by Anonymous2u 2004-03-31 11:59:20 PM|| 2004-03-31 11:59:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 As a totally evil MoFo... here is what I would do:
1) Come dark dose the whole city with tons of aerosol LSD.
2) Shoot thousands of beautiful fireworks over the city.
3) when the go out to see what the noise is the aerosol douses them
4) Slowly turn it into a nightmare. Start with a rocket lacing the top layer of the atmosphere with barium to reflect laser light. Now start the light show. First with positive muslim images then go totally negative with jinn and daemons and such. Have the other religion's gods laughing on the sides. Make it progresively into more and more of a nightmare. Release thousands of stray dogs and pigs. swoop over with helicopters firing sometimes blanks and sometimes real shells.

Let the nightmare commence.

Come morning when they are all close to insane wait until noon then show up with troops on every corner. Responed with full effect when attacked otherwise hang loose.

Oh and make sure the mosques disappear durning the night.

Posted by 3dc 2004-04-01 12:16:26 AM|| 2004-04-01 12:16:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#92 Okay. I'm changing my mind. My new favorite post is #92.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-01 12:38:30 AM|| 2004-04-01 12:38:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#93 3dc - LOL! It's Apocalyse Now!

Given the "quiet" on the news, we apparently had no immediate response... after all, the 5 Mil dead were an IED event which Sanchez & Co apparently consider SOP, now, and the civvies were apparently a total surprise.

And that is why we have the activity on this thread. It's well past time to stop absorbing this shit -- and start dishing it out 10x.

To tell the truth - I think Sanchez has maxxed out. Replace him with a fighter, someone like Col West (?), the one the gutless Pentagon turds busted, to lead the Triangle's sweep. It's hobnail boots time - and we need someone who knows what to do with them. Hard Boyz for Hard Timez.

Posted by .com 2004-04-01 1:40:57 AM|| 2004-04-01 1:40:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#94 OldSpook has provided one of the few really effective strategies.

First off, destroy the bridge. It is a symbol of their actions and needs to be removed. The inconvenience its demolition will pose to the entire area shall serve as a glaring reminder that distinct repercussions exist for such barbarism.

Second, give any areas that condone violence the absolute lowest priority when it comes to food shipments, restoration of utilities and infrastructure rebuild.

Along with this; Cordon off the entire town, per OldSpook's plan and evacuate all residents. Segregate any women or children, and contain all men separately. Trace all of them to individual street addresses (wherever possible) during their induction. Establish photographic and biometric identities for all involved. As they are encamped, make it known that any single one of them who are involved in further insurrection may be subject to summary execution.

Sweep the entire town and destroy any buildings that are occupied or contain evidence of opposition. Active resistance should be met with demolition of that entire city block.

Maintain a restrictive cordon and replace their demolished bridge with a marginal performance pontoon crossing accompanied by a full military checkpoint. This will serve as a reminder that extreme discomfort is the price of barbarity.

It may be necessary to avoid repatriating the town with any men of fighting age. Allow the women and children plus any seniors to reestablish occupation of the city. It may be useful to prohibit all religious gatherings in order to discourage collusion.

Interdict any unidentified traffic by ringing the entire city with razor wire plus accelerometer based vibration sensors and IR motion detectors.

It may prove useful to meter all drinking water and ration the distribution of food as well. Do this on the basis of previously gathered information during evacuation and encampment thus ensuring that a minimum of support reaches any insurgents.

Install acoustic triangulation monitoring to trace the origin points of all gunfire and explosions. Institute scaled responses ranging from loss of privileges to demolition of buildings for areas that violate the proscription on weapons discharge.

Basically, make life pure Hell for those who are uncooperative and existence a chore for those who comply. Keep everyone at low ebb through marginal nutrition and extract compliance pledges in exchange for additional benefits like hospital treatments.

Yes, what happened was utterly barbaric. No, it will not be possible to avoid descending into barbarity to some degree ourselves, however small. Carpet bombing the city or decimating its population would merely serve as a recruitment poster for al Qaeda. Simply make it abundantly clear that areas of insurrection have an incredibly low quality of life.

Assure that cooperative regions experience accelerated and well publicized recovery, gaining those districts more economic influence and political power. This will hit those who are uncooperative directly in the pocketbook, the most sensitive appendage of all.

Finally, deduct the entire cost of this passivation campaign from that region's portion of Iraqi oil revenues. We have no obligation to finance the constraint of willful barbarity. Those who promote such violence will be treated to a retardation of all socioeconomic progress in their area. When resistance arises, use information campaigns to make it crystal clear how insurgence has caused a concomitant restriction in benefits for that area's residents.

Posted by Zenster 2004-04-02 11:06:48 PM|| 2004-04-02 11:06:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Jones TROLL 2004-03-31 2:57:59 PM|| 2004-03-31 2:57:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Free Speech Enforcer TROLL 2004-03-31 9:06:53 PM|| 2004-03-31 9:06:53 PM|| Front Page Top

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