Article

2004-02-01 Europe

Germanyâs Schroeder to Visit White House

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Posted by tipper 2004-02-01 7:14:26 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 But with Europe eager to see stability in Iraq, Schroederâs government has sought to repair relations
I guess it sucked when the money stopped rolling in from Bagdad.

The french have demonstrated that they are are at best passively anti-American or at worst, just on the other side. We should leave them twisting and whining - but we won't.
We should adopt the "what have you done for me lately" approach
We've always had a nasty habit of trying to buy friends, and everyone acts suprised when it backfires.
I'd be inclined to throw the Germans a bone through,they have shown signs of understanding this is getting done with or without them.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-2-1 7:57:04 AM|| 2004-2-1 7:57:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Do you have to remind who had the chutzpah to tell Bush was equal to Hitler?

You should read medienkritik (http://medienkritik.typepad.com) and you would see that the Germans elites are as full of hate than the French. The only difference is that Schroeder knows when to withdraw.

Posted by JFM 2004-2-1 8:50:44 AM|| 2004-2-1 8:50:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Thanks,JFM, I'm not sure I found what you had in mind, but I did find an interesting thread discussing why (some)Germans are anti-American. The Rantburg resident psychologist can better interpret it, but to me it boiled down to guilt, resentment, and jealousy.

Posted by Gasse Katze 2004-2-1 9:29:17 AM|| 2004-2-1 9:29:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 This looks like part of the on-going effort to peel the Germans away from the French, thus shaking the notion that a "core" EU (France, Germany, Belgium, Austria) would lead the more recalcitrant members of the EU (as in, the rest of them) towards a unified Europe. Best way to fix that is to go after the least committed of the core, and that's Germany.

And the Germans HAVE been helpful in Afghanistan and in dealing with jihadis inside their own country. So a White House visit is okay -- but no visit to Crawford!

Posted by Steve White 2004-2-1 12:38:47 PM|| 2004-2-1 12:38:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 You know you're the superpower when folks want to go to Crawford Texas. (Not that I have anything against Texas... or wind... or Commanche Dawg Soldiers..... I just prefer to detour).

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-1 1:18:09 PM|| 2004-2-1 1:18:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 "But still no trip to the ranch..."

LOL

Posted by Evert Visser 2004-2-1 3:05:29 PM|| [http://chinditz.blog-city.com/] 2004-2-1 3:05:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 SH, I don't believe for a minute they go to Crawford for the scenery. Mesquite is mesquite, whether it's in Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, or OLD Mexico. It's the thrill of being invited to the HOME of the leader of the most powerful nation in the world that attracts them. Being invited to the White House kinda got tarnished when a certain group started selling a night there for cash. But to be invited to Crawford, well, that's even better than going to Camp David!

All that said, I'd rather spend a weekend in Glenwood Springs, or in Grand Lake... (Why do Presidents have to come from such gawdawful places?)

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-2-1 3:08:29 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-2-1 3:08:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Because it is gawdawful places who forge men having the right stuff. :-)

Think in Salusa Secundus who forged the Saurdarkar and the still worse Dune who forged the Fremen.

Posted by JFM 2004-2-1 3:29:11 PM|| 2004-2-1 3:29:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 I gotta weigh in with OP here (whom I really should take the time to meet IRL sometime). I live out in Colorado too, in a ranching/farming town on the High Plains where it's all scrub, wind and sky. There are MUCH better places in the world, places much softer to live in.

So why do I live here?

It's home.

"Now way out here they have a name
for rain and wind and fire
The rain is Tess, the fire's Joe
and they call the wind Maria.."

That about sums it up, I think. Here AND in Crawford.

Ed Becerra

Posted by Ed Becerra 2004-2-1 4:30:14 PM|| 2004-2-1 4:30:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Where ya goin I don't know
when will ya get there I ain't certaim
all I know is I am on my way!

You play with him... it ain't gambling.

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-1 5:08:45 PM|| 2004-2-1 5:08:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Welcome to Hell boy.

Posted by Napoleon VII 2004-2-1 5:09:46 PM|| 2004-2-1 5:09:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "Now way out here they have a name for rain and wind and fire The rain is Tess, the fire's Joe and they call the wind Maria.."

And they called the Garbageman Franklin

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-1 5:13:54 PM|| 2004-2-1 5:13:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I'm sorry for the excess but PYW is my second favorite.

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-1 5:15:14 PM|| 2004-2-1 5:15:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I'm rather sure that Schroeder prefers NOT to be invited to Crawford (his private ego might think differently though). His (ever shrinking) electorate (we're standing at 25% right now) would see that as "climbing into bed" with Bush.
The invitation to the White House was long overdue. That the leader of the most powerful nation in the world shuns the leader of the (economically) third most powerful state in the world (and btw fully democratic) is certainly not helpful for anyone.

I will still make a sharp distinction between the two leaders and their political entourage and the average German "in the street". I know it won't mean too much, but I saw an American tourist today asking his way around and was helped by five (!) passers by on his way (one even accompanied him until directions were clear). Try that in Paris!

JFM, reading Medienkritik is fine, but to judge the German press from some (naturally biased) press snippets of a disgruntled German doesn't cut it for me. I resent the words "anti-American" as much as "anti-Semitism" when they are liberally dispensed just to silence critical voices (even if these voices are wrong). This is exactly what helps creating anti-Americanism and anti Semitism. I challenge you to prove to me that Germans have more anti-Semitic voices than the U.S. (or other countries). And if current definitions of "anti-Americanism" were accurate then the U.S. would truly be much more "anti-European" (at least right now) than Europe (or Germany) is "anti-American".

Germans watch developments in the U.S. more closely than every other European nation, and Patriot Act or Guantanamo are not always easily explained to people who had to (re)learn the values of a free democratic society the hard way and have therefore developed super-sensitivity.

I'm not pretending that things have not changed... the wind blows colder here for U.S. politics but where doesn't it? Bush will never be celebrated or even loved in Europe, America can live with that I bet.

That said no one has a bigger interest in Iraq stability than Europe. If the U.S. failed in the Middle East, Europe would bear most of the fallout.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-2-1 6:03:20 PM|| 2004-2-1 6:03:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 TGA,

I generally agree with you as to the difference between France and Germany. I think that matches the perception that most Americans have. Most of us distinguish between the attitudes of Schroeder and his party (even when we disagree with them VERY strongly), and the attitudes of Germans, and Germany.

As an example, the respect with which American wounded were treated by Germans, both in uniform and out, when they were transported to hospitals in Germany was widely recognized. I believe that there is a deep and strong friendship between many Americans and many Germans and I think that it is quite able to survive misunderstandings (or even strong disagreements) between our respective governments.

In the case of France, on the other hand, it seems that the positions of the Chirac government are much closer to the position of the average Frenchman. Also, France's actions did not involve merely disagreeing --- however strongly --- with the United States, but involved taking actions actively in opposition to the U.S. When De Villepin can publicly suggest that arming the Communist Chinese is desirable as a means of providing a counterbalance to the United States, I have no qualm in classifying him as an ENEMY whether his position is honestly believed or merely the product of classical French dementia.

(and, I notice that the EU rejected his desires by 15-1 which suggests, rather strongly, that France's position is not representative of Germany, or Europe as a whole.)

Just one commend about Medienkritik: it's interesting to me that your reaction to it matches very closely that of a regular German correspondent of mine. He feels that it provides an overly negative view of the German press. I, on the other hand, don't see it as being nearly as negative since I view it as only dealing with certain articles, and the ones that he has cited would appear to be as he represents. To me, it suggests that the German Press averages about the same position as the U.S. "major media." That's to the Left of what I view as "objective," but is still far to the right of the articles that I've read in the mainstream French Media. (I'll admit to taking links from Merde In France; but I can, quite laboriously, translate the articles that he provides pointers to, and he's not distorted their content.)

Along the same lines, another indication of the difference between France and Germany in the minds of Americans is that while there are a number of blogs like Merde in France run by disgruntled American expatriates; there are no, to my knowledge, equivalent blogs such as Kacke in Germany; and I believe that there are more expatriate Americans living in Germany than there are in France by a large amount.

Thanks for all of your insights, and for the friendship of you and your countrymen.

Posted by Ralph 2004-2-1 7:31:02 PM|| 2004-2-1 7:31:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 So a White House visit is okay -- but no visit to Crawford!

The only German welcome to my place is my Uncle Henry.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-2-1 9:16:23 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-2-1 9:16:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 TGA,

I don't think that there has ever been much of a cooling between the American people and the French, German or Candian people. The chill was between patriotic American people and the French, German and Canadian governments.
We went through a real ugly period where our Commander-in-Chief was dissed on an alomst daily basis by government officials from several nations.

The French government was by far the worst followed by the Canadians. Many American people have voiced their displeasure economically. It is the free American consumer's method for voting for regime change in another country.

The economic middle-finger was offered mostly against France but with more effect against Canada who heavily depends on trade with the US. I don't think Schoeder is very popular here either, but Americans tend to have a high opinion of average Germans We expect a certain percentage of people in other countries to hate America - probably a third of Americans find the US detestable, but never to the extent that they want to forgo the next episode of Survivor.

It is best for the governemtns of other nations to reamin civil to our government. Many Europeans make the mistake of assuming that all Americans agree with what is written in the NYT, LAT and WaPo. I would think that a better sampling of attitudes in our heartland could be obtained by interviewing the troops stationed in Germany.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-2-1 9:24:03 PM|| 2004-2-1 9:24:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 I agree. And Schroeder has had the lowest opinion polls for a German Federal Chancellor ever.
What can be said is that the shrill words from politicians were hyped and not every American has traveled to Germany or served there. But when it comes to attitudes... maybe you'd like to re-read Jersey Mike's (poster #1) comment about "willing to throw us a bone". We are really so grateful, yes really.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-2-1 10:46:59 PM|| 2004-2-1 10:46:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Not to start a slap-fight, but hasn't Schoeder's behavior helped to foster a cynical attitude regarding our relations with Germany? Many people have been awakened to European diplomacy where there are no friends but interests.

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-2-1 11:50:14 PM|| 2004-2-1 11:50:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 The Rantburg resident psychologist can better interpret it, but to me it boiled down to guilt, resentment, and jealousy.

Not sure if this is reference to me, but I'll have a stab at answering. I spent a fair amount of time in Germany a couple of years ago and I generally like working with German's. Very business like people. But they are insular. Xenophobic is probably too strong a word. They are also complacent. Most Germans have what they want and want to maintain the status quo. They resent the Americans for wanting to change things and up-setting their nice comfortable existence. Then of course irrationality comes into the equation. Their guilt driven post modern world view (German word is something like Weltschmertz) prevents them from blaming the Islamo crazies as well as 3rd world ethnic crime syndicates (its no coincidence that crimes rates are rocketing in Western Europe, while declining in the USA), So they blame the USA (and Israel by extension). Thirty years of 'enlightened social policy, especially in relation to immigration is turning out to be a major cluster-fuck and they don't know what to do about it. Blaming the Americans is just a way of avoiding the problem. Completely irrational of course! This analysis applies to Left in general.

Posted by phil_b 2004-2-2 1:21:16 AM|| 2004-2-2 1:21:16 AM|| Front Page Top

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