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2003-08-18 Iraq

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Posted by ----------<<<<- 2003-08-18 8:56:25 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 A better link for the aforementioned pictures:

http://www.worth1000.com/sitenews.asp#60717

Posted by ----------<<<<- 2003-8-18 9:02:08 AM|| 2003-8-18 9:02:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Now I understand why we might have allowed the gruesome twosome to have a home burial site. There is a good chance that daddy will be drawn to visit. Psyops sure must be an interesting vocation!

Posted by Craig 2003-8-18 11:28:26 AM|| 2003-8-18 11:28:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Lt. Col Steve Russell: "But the bad guys are going to be upset, which will just make it easier for us to know who they are."

"Maybe it is funny for the soldiers, but I think most locals will find it very insulting," said Uday, a 22-year-old working as a translator at the U.S. army base in Tikrit.

Just found another one of those bad guys - no surprise there - who are the people in Iraq who get to learn English, if not Saddam's supporters?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-18 12:50:56 PM|| 2003-8-18 12:50:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 This is a good start. Humiliation is a powerful tool. A radio show, Saddam as Jack Benny for instance would be good also. A sitcom, My two Sons, perhaps, or The Husseins.

Posted by Lucky 2003-8-18 1:06:10 PM|| 2003-8-18 1:06:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 They should dub "Hot Shots--Part Deux" and air it on Iraqi TV. Wonder if Saddam's lisp will be as funny in the original Iraqi?

Posted by Dar 2003-8-18 1:13:10 PM|| [http://users.stargate.net/~dsteckel/] 2003-8-18 1:13:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Duh--I meant to write "Arabic" instead of "Iraqi"--it's Monday.

Posted by Dar 2003-8-18 1:46:30 PM|| [http://users.stargate.net/~dsteckel/] 2003-8-18 1:46:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Elvis would probably be recognized by Iraqi's, and maybe marilyn monroe, but remember these are pop culture icons that might not have the same associations for the Iraqi people that they have here. And for christ sakes, if your interpreter tells you it's a bad idea, you really should listen to him. He may not know psyop, but he knows the culture better than you do, Joe.

There's a lot of psyop soldiers who have a hard time taking off their gringo glasses when it comes to dealing with the cultural sensitivities and nuances of things. It's a real common mistake, but dammit they train us for that kind of thing.

At first glance this doens't seem like a good idea, I just hope they know something on the ground that I don't.

This is usually what we (as enlisted psyop) call "Psyop by GFI." (Good f*cking idea).

You can usually trace it to some officer who took the two week psyop O'course and thinks he's god's gift to Propaganda.

-DS
"the horns hold up the halo"

Posted by DeviantSaint 2003-8-18 2:07:42 PM|| [www.livejournal.com/~deviantsaint] 2003-8-18 2:07:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Spot on DS, a seperation of church and psyops is a good thing. Keep the humiliation to a more human element. But a good laughing at is a terrible swift sword.

PS. No psyops traing here.

Posted by Lucky 2003-8-18 2:22:10 PM|| 2003-8-18 2:22:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 How about posters of Uday and Qusay being "saddamized" in Hell? Talk to the South Park guys - they'll do it up right...

Posted by mojo 2003-8-18 2:28:35 PM|| 2003-8-18 2:28:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 seems that making it insulting is kinda the idea - doesnt seem the translator quite has the concept.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-18 2:41:45 PM|| 2003-8-18 2:41:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 And for christ sakes, if your interpreter tells you it's a bad idea, you really should listen to him.

He's only their interpreter, which is to say that he's an English-speaking Iraqi of indeterminate loyalties.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-18 3:06:18 PM|| 2003-8-18 3:06:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 soldiers laughing...thats the whole idea!

Posted by john 2003-8-18 3:13:00 PM|| 2003-8-18 3:13:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 soldiers laughing...thats the whole idea!

Posted by john 2003-8-18 3:13:12 PM|| 2003-8-18 3:13:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "And for christ sakes, if your interpreter tells you it's a bad idea, you really should listen to him. He's only their interpreter, which is to say that he's an English-speaking Iraqi of indeterminate loyalties. "

It also means he's actively helping the American troops in Iraq, something that several Iraqis have paid with their *lives*, so unless you have proof to the opposite you ought to consider him an ally which may be actually trying to help.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-18 4:23:51 PM|| 2003-8-18 4:23:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aris is correct that there is risk to any Iraqi helping Americans in Iraq - several Iraqis have been killed. But whats the denominator - how many Iraqis ARE helping Americans - Aris thinks to assume its only a few - i count tens of thousands police, thousands of people in the various utilities, dozens of mayors and local councilors, etc. OTOH not all deaths of Iraqis are reported. So its not at clear to me how much of a risk a translator is taking. Which must be set beside what is in fact a good job, in a country with 60% unemployment. So any evidence the other way - I ISTR some discussion in April how most trained translators in Iraq worked for the regime, and were running around trying to find what jobs they could, with the press, etc. I would hope the army has been careful in vetting its translators.

It doesnt seem like the guy is not an ally - just that he is missing the concept of the op 0 given the relatively small number of fence sitters in Tikrit, and the relatively large number of Baathists, the idea is that provoking the Baathists to come out is worth some cost in alienating the fencesitters. Probably wouldnt try this anywhere else in Iraq.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-18 4:39:55 PM|| 2003-8-18 4:39:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 It also means he's actively helping the American troops in Iraq, something that several Iraqis have paid with their *lives*, so unless you have proof to the opposite you ought to consider him an ally which may be actually trying to help.

It's standard practice to plant spies in the ranks of your enemy. Saddam undoubtedly has moles in the ranks of the people hired by the US military. Aris is operating under the assumption that the murders of people who are working for the American military are random events, and express the popular will of the Iraqi people. (Aris would assume that, wouldn't he?)

My view is that these murders are carefully planned by Saddam's henchmen and targeted at the people who are actually helping Americans, rather than Saddam's spies among the coalition forces. Unfortunately, the only way to ascertain for sure that an Iraqi who works for our guys is truly loyal is when he ends up dead. And even then, he could just be a sacrifice.

Bottom line - the only time you can be reasonably certain of an Iraqi employee's loyalties is when he is killed, and even then, you can't be completely sure. Aris would like our boys to let their guard down so our enemies can rack up a higher GI body count, but the operative phrase with Iraqis, as with the Soviets, is "trust, but verify".

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-18 5:04:01 PM|| 2003-8-18 5:04:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 And here I thought the best place for a spy to gather good intel was helping out the powers-that-be. Silly me.

;>

Posted by mojo 2003-8-18 6:38:18 PM|| 2003-8-18 6:38:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 "It's standard practice to plant spies in the ranks of your enemy."

Atleast you have come round to the idea that this Iraqi is in your ranks, rather than a man of "uncertain loyalties" by definition.

"Aris is operating under the assumption that the murders of people who are working for the American military are random events, and express the popular will of the Iraqi people"

You are operating under the assumption that everyone's as big an asshole as you.

"Unfortunately, the only way to ascertain for sure that an Iraqi who works for our guys is truly loyal is when he ends up dead."

Same thing with an American who works for your guys, ain't that so?

"And even then, he could just be a sacrifice."

Aye, let's kill them all Iraqis then, just to be certain. When Iraq is empty we can settle it anew with white Anglo-Saxon Protestants who don't speak a word in Arab. That's the only way we can know for sure.

"Aris would like our boys to let their guard down "

Actually I would very much like you to not immediately consider "enemies" the very people you supposedly went to liberate.

Mojo> You do understand that the only reason you people started calling this guy a "spy" was because he disagreed with you on the effect this poster was going to have?

And because he was helping your troops of course. A *very* suspicious thing for a Arab to do. He must be up to something.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-18 8:11:37 PM|| 2003-8-18 8:11:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Alright Aris, you made a number of good points here, and I agree, that there is no reason to ascribe all sorts of weird and malevolent attributes to this Iraqi. But why do you have to spoil your remarks with this crack?

"When Iraq is empty we can settle it anew with white Anglo-Saxon Protestants who don't speak a word in Arab."

I've noticed before that you have a "thing" about WASPs. Don't know if you've ever been to the USA
but that's a pretty ancient stereotype, except among 70s-era leftists. And do me a favor, don't make any assumptions from my last name...you'll be wrong.

Posted by R. McLeod 2003-8-18 9:11:19 PM|| 2003-8-18 9:11:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Too true! You CAN'T judge a man by his name, Aris. After all, we know that R. McLeod is immortal, no? ^_^

* wanders off muttering something about "there can be only one..." and sharpening his sword *

Posted by Ed Becerra 2003-8-18 9:34:40 PM|| 2003-8-18 9:34:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Aris: Atleast you have come round to the idea that this Iraqi is in your ranks, rather than a man of "uncertain loyalties" by definition.

I'm not sure I understand the point of this statement. Iraqis who have infiltrated into our organizations under false pretenses are not part of us.

Aris: You are operating under the assumption that everyone's as big an asshole as you.

Aris, you really musn't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

Aris: Same thing with an American who works for your guys, ain't that so?

Don't really see how the loyalty of our troops is comparable to the loyalty Iraqis we hire to do things for us. Our troops are tied to Uncle Sam by the bonds of years of schooling in our education system, the indoctrination of years of military training and finally, the fact that they volunteered for military service when they could have settled for better-paid jobs in the private sector. Iraqis, on the other hand, are an unknown quantity. Like the Germans and the Japanese in the postwar period, Iraqis have been subjected to years of propaganda about how we're savages bent on raping and pillaging our way through the country. Even the ones who might be well-disposed towards us will have their doubts about our intentions. Aris is just being his usual disingenuous self - what he's saying is that we should trust the enemy as much as we trust our own, which is just absurd on its face.

Aris: Aye, let's kill them all Iraqis then, just to be certain. When Iraq is empty we can settle it anew with white Anglo-Saxon Protestants who don't speak a word in Arab. That's the only way we can know for sure.

We didn't trust the Japanese and the Germans in the postwar period either. Last I looked, the Germans are still German and the Japanese are still Japanese. Aris is projecting his genocidal fantasies on the American psyche - after all, the Greeks know a little something about massacring Muslims from their experience in the 20th century.

Aris: Actually I would very much like you to not immediately consider "enemies" the very people you supposedly went to liberate.

We did not go to Iraq primarily to liberate them or even to locate WMD. We went there primarily to impress upon Muslims the consequences of sponsoring terrorists against us. Now if Greece objects to these goals, it is free to help al Qaeda in its efforts against American civilians - if it is not already doing so. (Of course, Greece has certainly done a good job of killing Americans without any al Qaeda help).

And the Iraqis are not our friends - yet. Perhaps in the fullness of time, this will change, as it did with the Germans and the Japanese.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-18 10:49:26 PM|| 2003-8-18 10:49:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 "I've noticed before that you have a "thing" about WASPs. Don't know if you've ever been to the USA but that's a pretty ancient stereotype, except among 70s-era leftists."

Well, the Catholics have uncertain loyalties since the Pope opposed the War on Iraq, don't they? Based on the "either you are with us or against us" principle, the Catholic church is a hostile organization and all its members are "enemy combatants". If Zhang Fei can not just justify the death of that Reuters reporter as an accident, but actively say that they should be hunted out and killed as enemies, I don't think it's too far of a stretch that he may be distrustful (at least) of Catholics.

And non-white folk often do other suspicious things, like tending to vote Democrat.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-19 7:00:56 AM|| 2003-8-19 7:00:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 "We went there primarily to impress upon Muslims the consequences of sponsoring terrorists against us."

Ah, yes, the ever changing "primary motivation" for the war. Is it this? No, it is that! Too bad, Bush and admin haven't thought up on one single particular primary motivation. Or many such motivations listed in order of importance, so that we know which the "primary one" is.

"Aris is projecting his genocidal fantasies on the American psyche"

No, Zhang Fei, I'm not the evil racist bigot that you are. It's *you*, not the "American psyche" in general that I'm accusing of genocidal fantasies.

"after all, the Greeks know a little something about massacring Muslims from their experience in the 20th century."

We do? Which incident do you have in mind?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-19 7:07:41 AM|| 2003-8-19 7:07:41 AM|| Front Page Top

09:06 raptor
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