Article

2003-07-24 Iraq

U.S. Will Release Saddam Sonsâ Death Photos

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Posted by 11A5S 2003-07-24 12:03:44 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 hey...seeing is believing right...my right wing friends.....

Posted by stevey robinson 2003-7-24 3:21:20 AM|| 2003-7-24 3:21:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 No matter how repulsive it might be to others, the audience that needs convincing is Arab. Therefore, the proof must be so overwhelming as to make the willfully blind see.

Posted by PD 2003-7-24 5:57:01 AM|| 2003-7-24 5:57:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Hoo boy, this isn't going to be fun. Showing the death photos of Uday and Qusay is something we've absolutely got to do, despite our cultural revulsion, because the Iraqi people need to see visual evidence that their oppressors are dead.

But within microseconds of when those photos hit the streets of Baghdad, every Democratic Party presidential candidate will be in front of TV cameras, denouncing the Bush administration for its barbaric bloodthirstiness. I can just hear it already: "George W. Bush- not much better than Saddam, is he? A vote for Howard Dean is a vote for a return to decency." or some such. Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd will make pompous speeches. Terry MacAuliffe will make snarky comments about Republican immorality.

No, this is not going to be pretty.

Posted by Dave D. 2003-7-24 6:21:40 AM|| 2003-7-24 6:21:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 To tell the truth I've never understood this "cultural revulsion" bit about showing dead bodies... Perhaps it's more of a US-cultural revulsion than a Western-civilisation cultural revulsion? I think I had commented about this, in an earlier thread a couple months back, either here or in another forum, when I didn't much understand why several Americans were angry with the Iraqis showing the dead bodies of Americans, as if it was somehow worse than the actual killing itself.

After all some funerals are still open-casket, aren't there. Ah, well... I guess it's the whole "each culture is different" thin". But yeah, I think in this case it'd be good if the photos were made available for all Iraqis to see.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-7-24 6:48:18 AM|| 2003-7-24 6:48:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aris: I think it might be an anglo tradition the cultural revulsion with death. My mum is of Greek extraction and in her side of the family, open caskets are also the go.

I like it, I think it's healthy to see death. But interestingly I reckon there is an inverse relationship between the amount of gore in pop culture and the amount of familiarity with death in that culture. It is such a taboo here in the west (i think) that it has become a scary demon to exorcise in movies, hence the amount of deaths on the screen. Nobody ever sees it in real life, so they are mega curious about anything to do with death.

That's my theory!

Yep show us all the bodies, I would like to see those two dead as a dodo, they surely don't deserve to be walking around using up oxygen.

Posted by Anon1 2003-7-24 7:33:39 AM|| 2003-7-24 7:33:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Well the idea of showing dead bodies, like all things, depends on the context. In a casket is one thing but at the scene of violent death is another. Showing people shot or bombed to death (or even wounded) is gruesome, even if it's done as documentation. But documenting the realities of war is one thing. Brandishing dead bodies for propaganda purposes is another thing entirely.

I'm surprised that Aris cannot understand why Al-Jazeera showing dead American servicemen would piss off Americans. It's pretty obvious that for a large part of their audience, this was "brandishing" and not "documenting". Americans were rightfully disgusted when we see such sights as the Daniel Pearl video or when our soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu on international tv broadcasts. We do not regard the Jihadi snuff videos (mostly featuring hapless Russian soldiers) that flood the Islamic Blockbuster Home Video stores as acceptable different cultural viewing standards. It's incitement and it's barbaric.

It's perfectly natural to have reservations about showing Uday and Qusay. If you have to do it - then do it. Being labeled a hypocrite is sometimes the price one pays.

Posted by Tokyo Taro 2003-7-24 7:45:09 AM|| 2003-7-24 7:45:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 It's mostly cultural, I think, and it's a point where America's diverged a bit from Europe. We have a (mostly unspoken) taboo against displaying real death, despite the fictitious deaths in the movies, that's stronger than the European aversion. We're curious about it because we virtually never see it in real life unless we're in the medical professions (and not all of them), cops, military, or undertakers.

The gap between the West in general and the Arabs in particular is even wider -- Arabs as a culture aren't what y'd call really empathetic. Death and pain are still a matter of spectacle, rather than something to be hidden away.

Posted by Fred 2003-7-24 8:24:37 AM|| 2003-7-24 8:24:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Aris - I respect your response. I think Tokyo Taro hit the nail on the head regards Americans. Surprising, or not, the vast majority of Americans are not bloodthirsty subhumans - and have never killed anyone, ever, and do not revel in any other person's death. Relief is what most will feel regards the Hussein thugs, as they will never harm anyone else again.

We're not deluding ourselves or avoiding death, either - we've done a hell of a lot of killing - of ourselves and others. For Americans, sticking our fingers into the bullet holes does not make the deaths any more real - just as a closed casket does not make the death any less real.

Arabs, on the other hand, are from fucking Pluto.

Posted by PD 2003-7-24 8:26:44 AM|| 2003-7-24 8:26:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 My dad got a whole set of Time-Life books on WWII years ago. Still got them and was looking at the one on the Italian campaign. Mussolini looked a whole lot better when he was strung upsidedown on those meat hooks than when he was taken down. One woman actually pumped 5 rounds into his corpse for each son who had died in his army. Bodies were put into wooden caskets and Ben's face was all squished and darkened with eyes open. Not quite your normal open-casket affair, but the public got to review his body as well as mistress and another crony. They knew he was out of the picture. Give us the pictures now and no make-up, please. This is no ordinary situation.

Posted by Michael 2003-7-24 9:06:31 AM|| 2003-7-24 9:06:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 It is such a taboo here in the west (i think) that it has become a scary demon to exorcise in movies, hence the amount of deaths on the screen.

The body count in the papers as well as in the movies is far higher outside of the West. The stuff we see is nothing compared to what they show in Hong Kong or Japanese movies, for example. Check out an East Asian video sometime - they show R ratings for footage that I think should be labeled NC-17 for extremely raw violence. Hollywood movies are violent only compared to what went on before, which was PG-rated. Non-Western foreign movies have always been violent - sometimes in stomach-churning ways. I don't think we'll ever catch up to them, because Hollywood liberals are too squeamish. (The foreign media also aired and printed extremely gory aspects of the 9/11 bombings, including photos of people in the aftermath of going splat).

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-7-24 9:53:23 AM|| 2003-7-24 9:53:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I didn't much understand why several Americans were angry with the Iraqis showing the dead bodies of Americans

We view the showing of bodies as spectacle to be equivalent to mutilation and desecration. And that's not going to change - we're not going view these thing in the so-called Arab context (any more than we're going to accept the rape of our women by Muslims because Muslims think they dress like whores, or take terror attacks as a sign that we must submit to their wishes). I guess our enemies are too stupid to realize that they're pushing our hot buttons when they do things like that.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-7-24 10:09:49 AM|| 2003-7-24 10:09:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Zhang Fei,

This classic article by Walter Russell Mead offers some good answers for Europeans like Aris and TGA.

"Indeed, of all the major currents in American society, Jacksonians have the least regard for international law and international institutions. They prefer the rule of custom to the written law, and that is as true in the international sphere as it is in personal relations at home. Jacksonians believe that there is an honor code in international lifeâas there was in clan warfare in the borderlands of Englandâand those who live by the code will be treated under it. But those who violate the codeâwho commit terrorist acts in peacetime, for exampleâforfeit its protection and deserve no consideration.

Many students of American foreign policy, both here and abroad, dismiss Jacksonians as ignorant isolationists and vulgar patriots, but, again, the reality is more complex, and their approach to the world and to war is more closely grounded in classical realism than many recognize. Jacksonians do not believe that the United States must have an unambiguously moral reason for fighting. In fact, they tend to separate the issues of morality and war more clearly than many members of the foreign policy establishment."

Specifically about the Hussein brothers:

"Jacksonian society draws an important distinction between those who belong to the folk community and those who do not. Within that community, among those bound by the code and capable of discharging their responsibilities under it, Jacksonians are united in a social compact. Outside that compact is chaos and darkness. The criminal who commits what, in the Jacksonian code, constitute unforgivable sins (cold-blooded murder, rape, the murder or sexual abuse of a child, murder or attempted murder of a peace officer) can justly be killed by the victimsâ families, colleagues or by society at largeâwith or without the formalities of law. In many parts of the United States, juries will not convict police on almost any charge, nor will they condemn revenge killers in particularly outrageous cases. The right of the citizen to defend family and property with deadly force is a sacred one as well, a legacy from colonial and frontier times."

The article, BTW, is from the Fall/Winter 2000 issue.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-24 11:42:24 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-24 11:42:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 If liberal America finds the idea of corpses revolting, they shouldn't visit San Francisco. I have literally had to step over the discarded bodies of the homeless in her alleys. This, in a city which is held up as a shining example of that misguided political philosophy.

Hummm; come to think of it, so long as the dead are out of site.... it is a shining example, comrade!

Posted by Secret Master 2003-7-24 11:49:50 AM|| [www.budgetwarrior.com] 2003-7-24 11:49:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Ernest Brown--Excellent commentary--thanks for posting that! I'll be looking that up.

Posted by Dar 2003-7-24 12:33:32 PM|| 2003-7-24 12:33:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "But within microseconds of when those photos hit the streets of Baghdad, every Democratic Party presidential candidate will be in front of TV cameras, denouncing the Bush administration for its barbaric bloodthirstiness"

Actually, Sen. Joe Lieberman has been busy denouncing his fellow Democrats for not showing enough strength on foreign policy.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-7-24 2:45:58 PM|| 2003-7-24 2:45:58 PM|| Front Page Top

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