A judge declared a mistrial Monday for most former leaders of a Muslim charity accused of funding terrorism, after chaos broke out in the court when three jurors disputed the verdict that had been announced. One of the defendants, former Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development Chairman Mohammed El-Mezain, was acquitted of most charges.
The outcome came about an hour after a confusing scene in the courtroom, in which three former leaders of the group were initially found not guilty. But then when jurors were polled, three of them said those verdicts were read incorrectly.
Judge Joe A. Fish sent the jury back to resolve the differences, but after about an hour, Fish said he received a note from the jury saying 11 of 12 felt further deliberations will not lead them to reach a unanimous decision.
The jury forewoman said she was surprised by the three jurors' actions. "When we voted, there was no issue in the vote," she said. "No one spoke up any different. I really don't understand where it is coming from."
In all, five former Holy Land leaders and the group were accused of providing aid to the Middle Eastern militant group Hamas. The U.S. government designated Hamas a terrorist group in 1995 and again in 1997, making financial transactions with the group illegal.
#2
Except that the initial finding was non guilty.
Two things come into my mind. First is that the verdict agreed upon was not the one read for some reason, perhaps tampering. Although, in that case more than three jurors should have objected.
The more likely is that the three felt guilty was the proper verdict. The jury had been deadlocked for some time and had reported to the judge. He read the Allen charge which says the state and defendants have spent a lot of time and money to put on the trial, it is your responsibility to render a verdict. Go do your job! They went back and couldn't reach a verdict. So finally, the 3 agreed to vote not guilty with the other 9 knowing they would be polled at which point they could create a mistrial, the same result as a hung jury.
Overall a farce, not unlike those routinely produced by OJ trials, and a demonstration that the modern American jury trial, designed to let the guilty go free so that the innocent will not be unfairly convicted, is utterly ineffective in prosecuting the War on Terror.
#4
the modern American jury trial, designed to let the guilty go free so that the innocent will not be unfairly convicted, is utterly ineffective in prosecuting the War on Terror.
Is there some legal way for foreign nationals charged with terrorism offenses to be denied a trial by jury? After all, they are not citizens, are acting against the American people and therefore do not qualify as peers with respect to any jurors hearing the case.
More than anything, as Excalibur so succintly notes:
... treating war as a criminal justice matter is a sure route to disaster.
Long ago these Islamic swine declared war upon us. Our idiotically restrictive ROE in the early phase of Iraq should have taught us the folly of using police tactics against terrorists. We had damn well better begin treating this global conflict as a true war or be prepared for a sickeningly horrid butcher's bill—both here and abroad—once the fur really begins to fly.
#5
An important part of treating this like the war it is means charging and convicting traitors with treason and sedition and sentencing them accordingly.
Posted by: Black Jack Murtha ||
10/22/2007 15:54 Comments ||
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#7
Both Zenster and Excalibur make valid points.
I can easily imagine a scenario here in the USA where the citizenry preceives the gov't dropping the ball and, thereafter, others take it upon themselves to redress an injustice. Anybody ever watched the HBO series Deadwood? Being a vigilanti is not always a bad thing.
Posted by: Mark Z ||
10/22/2007 16:04 Comments ||
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#8
Yes it is difficult to get convictions where the facts are complicated and the terrorists are skillfull at building a defense based on "our money didn't go for bullets".
On the other hand,
- the prosecution could have made this easier to understand
- the actions of the HLF4RD that were the subject of the prosecution were almost a decade in the past (it was only late in the Clinton Admin that Hamas was designated a terrorist group and the law wasn't as clear as it could have been);
- current and future fundraising for Hamas has been pretty much shut down (its probably no more than 10% of what it was in the 90s).
#9
Terrorists engage in acts of war against the country and the population. The criminal justice system cannot handle it, broken as it is. Hell, on the best of days it cannot handle it. That is the nature of the beast.
If the government cannot protect its citizens through the law enforcement and judicial system, then the citizens will do it through extrajudicial means or through vigilantes. The problem is one of control. Vigilantes can get carried away. San Francisco had situations in 1851 and 1856 that created vigilante committees to take care of criminal activities because of the breakdown and corruption of government. There were excesses and it was not pretty. It would certainly be better if government would do its duty.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/22/2007 16:22 Comments ||
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Taliban militants used Afghan civilians as human shields during a battle with US forces in eastern Afghanistan in which 20 Taliban and one civilian were killed and 11 civilians wounded, officials said Sunday.
Afghanistan's Defense Ministry said the joint Afghan-NATO operation began Friday in the Korengal Valley in Kunar province - next to the border with Pakistan - with artillery fire and airstrikes. Twenty "enemy" fighters had been killed, the ministry said.
Kunar Gov. Didar Shalizai said one civilian had also been killed, while Maj. Charles Anthony, spokesman for NATO's International Security Assistance Force, said 11 civilians had been wounded. Three had been transported to the US base at Bagram for medical care, he said.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/22/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
Hit em with your purse, Gulbuddin.
Moderator note: image deleted. Please don't post large images from Photobucket, etc., without making sure they're small enough to fit our formatting. AoS.
(KUNA) -- Armed clashes erupted anew between army forces and Huthi rebels in northern Yemen after gunmen attacked an army checkpoint, the Yemeni news agency reported on Sunday. The official news agency, Saba', said the clashes broke out, late on Saturday, in the governorate of Saada after armed rebels attacked an army roadblock in the region of Al-Shoumiah.
The renewed fighting coincided with preparations by the criminal court to cross-examine cases of 15 Huthi detainees, charged with being involved in anti-state acts and sabotage. Mediation efforts by Qatar, last June, resulted in reaching a cease-fire between the Sanaa government and the opposition gunmen. According to a Qatari-mediated deal, leaders of the opposition would settle in Doha, the gunmen would hand over heavy-caliber arms and the Army would withdraw from villages and towns, inhabited by Huthis.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/22/2007 00:00 ||
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(Interfax) - A police officer was fatally wounded inn an attack in Grozny on Saturday. "Unidentified assailants opened gunfire from a ruined building at a patrol vehicle carrying three police officers in Grozny's Oktyabrsky district. One of the policemen was fatally wounded," a source in law enforcement services told Interfax on Sunday. Five expended cartridges were discovered at the scene of the attack, he said.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/22/2007 00:00 ||
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The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on three of the six defendants, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday as he unsealed their verdicts.
On two others, they were able to reach unanimous decisions on some of the counts. And on only one defendant were they able to reach unanimous decisions on all counts.
The judge is now beginning to announce the jury's verdict on each defendant. In all, the jury must make 197 decisions on guilt or innocence this morning.
#1
If vetted jurors in US cities can not or do not wish to comprehend the "glove incident" in the OJ trial then they can not comprehend the complexities of financial money laundering for terror. The vetted jurors just don't have the brain power. If they did the would be captains of industry not sitting in some jury.
Our courts have become total failures for complex crimes let alone simple ones.
#4
I think I'd like more detail before I start drawing conclusions.
Also, be advised that a failure to reach a verdict is not a finding of "not guilty."
Posted by: Mike ||
10/22/2007 12:09 Comments ||
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#5
Now, gentlemen...There remains the possibility that some of those charged were innocent. You know how the DA's like to dream up 50 charges in the hopes that one or more will stick. How many charges was Al Capone facing when he got sent up to the big house? More than one, I'll wager.
Save your outrage for which ones got how much time; I'm afraid there'll be plenty of opportunity for outrage then.
Posted by: Bobby ||
10/22/2007 12:11 Comments ||
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#6
Update: Mufid Abdulqader (front-left), a defendant in the Holy Land Foundation terror-finance trial, receives a hug Monday at the federal courthouse in Dallas. He was found not guilty on all counts.
They don't like to mention it, but Mufid is the brother of Hamas Supremo Khalid Mashaal. Looks to me like a total breakdown of the justice system.
#7
Which is why treating war as a criminal justice matter is a sure route to disaster. When the history of this time is written - assuming it is not written in arabic - the alliance of the Democrats and the trial lawyers will figure largely in how we chose not to fight.
#8
DALLAS — A judge declared a mistrial Monday for most former leaders of a Muslim charity charged with financing Middle Eastern terrorists after jurors failed to reach a verdict. One of the defendants, former Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development Chairman Mohammed El-Mezain, was acquitted of most charges.
The outcome came about an hour after a confusing scene in the courtroom, in which three former leaders of the group were initially found not guilty. But then when jurors were polled, three of them said those verdicts were read incorrectly.
In all, five former Holy Land leaders and the group were accused of providing aid to the Middle Eastern militant group Hamas. The U.S. government designated Hamas a terrorist group in 1995 and again in 1997, making financial transactions with the group illegal.
Most unusual, wonder if someone got to the sealed verdicts over the weekend and tried to pull a fast one?
Posted by: Steve ||
10/22/2007 12:42 Comments ||
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#9
Interesting breaking details posted at LGF. I think a mistrial means the jury really screwed this one up. It doesn't reflect too well on Judge Fish either, but at least there's another chance to convict these rats.
#2
This is what happens when conservative Sunni Muslims reject Al Qaeda. Al Qeada just has no political mindspace left to infest. They're as beat at beat can be.
#5
NO, a Trans-national or even Trans/Multi-regional "transnational jihadist emirate" does not square agz AL-QAEDA's well-known, well-reported ANTI-AMER + GLOBAL ISLAMIST AGENDA, including comments from Osama himself. They want the USA and its volunteer army to attack and occupy IRAN next.
#6
BTW, iff this new vid is once again verified by the USG as being Osama, it again shows that Osama did survive Tora Bora and is still a viable potent threat despite likely serious personal health probs.
#7
FREEREPUBLIC > BIN LADEN SOUNDS THE CALL OF DEFEAT IN IRAQ [CounterTerror Blog]. See also FR article from the BBC > i.e. Osama "declaring war"? on Pakistan. FR Posters are saying its a big victory for Dubya + USA, the BIGGEST [US] VICTORY SINCE WW2??? * Me - the OSAMA I KNOW IS IRAN-CENTRIC/FOCUSED AS PER THE ISLAMIC MAHDI-IMMAM. IMO, ITS STILL PREMATURE TO BELABEL AQ = RADICAL ISLAM AS DEFEATED UNTIL AFTER THE BATTLE FOR IRAN, BOYZ.
#11
-A message from Osama Bin Hidin' directly to Iraqi Sunnis.
-The ones that for so long MSM claimed were creating a quaqmire for US troops.
-Iraq Sunnis who are fighting with us against the 9/11 cockroaches and now have caused Bin Hidin' to start crying uncle.
#13
What we did was to give ordinary Iraqis a choice - they could join the modern civilized world or revert to the seventh century barbarianism being offered by AQ and the Iranian Mad Mullahs. They have chosen. We will most likely have to stay there for years to come but if the majority of the Iraqis really wanted us gone we already would be. The mad men have lost Iraq. The only question now is whether their next loss will be Iran or Pakistan.
SIRNAK, Turkey (AP) - Dozens of Turkish military vehicles loaded with soldiers and heavy weapons rumbled toward the Iraq border on Monday after an ambush by guerrilla Kurds that left eight soldiers missing and killed 12. Iraq's president said the rebels would announce a cease-fire, his office confirmed.
Turkey's military said it had had no contact with the eight soldiers after Sunday's clash and said 34 guerrillas had been killed so far in a counteroffensive. A pro-Kurdish news agency said the eight were captured—a claim that would make it the largest seizure since 1995, when guerrillas grabbed eight soldiers and took them to northern Iraq.
The ambush on Sunday outraged an already frustrated public. Demonstrations erupted across the country and opposition leaders called for an immediate strike against rebel bases in Iraq, despite appeals for restraint from Iraq, the U.S. and European leaders.
In Washington, the State Department said the United States has opened a diplomatic "full court press" to urge Turkey not to invade northern Iraq. "In our view, there are better ways to deal with this issue," spokesman Sean McCormack said, stressing that the United States regards the PKK as a terrorist organization.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he told Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in a telephone conversation on Sunday night that Turkey expected "speedy steps from the U.S." in cracking down on Kurdish rebels and that Rice, who called the Turkish leader, asked "for a few days" from him.
McCormack did not dispute the account of the conversation but declined to comment on what Rice had meant by asking for "a few days." Erdogan did not specify what he meant by "speedy steps," but he has often urged the United States and Iraq to crack down on the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK. Turkish leaders say it is the responsibility of those countries to do whatever is necessary to destroy the guerrilla group's bases in northern Iraq.
"We will continue these diplomatic efforts with all good intentions to solve this problem caused by a terrorist organization," Foreign Minister Ali Babacan told reporters in Kuwait. "But in the end, if we do not reach any results, there are other means we might have to use."
Babacan has been touring Arab countries to explain his country's plans.
The Turkish military confirmed Monday that eight of its soldiers were missing after the ambush by Kurdish rebels that left 12 other soldiers dead and brought the northern Iraq border area to the brink of war. "Despite all search efforts, no contact has been established with eight missing personnel since shortly after the armed attack on the military unit," the military said in a statement on its Web site.
The pro-Kurdish Firat news agency, based in Belgium, released the names of seven people it said were Turkish soldiers captured by separatist fighters in Sunday's ambush. It said an eighth soldier was also taken captive but did not release his name.
The last major kidnapping was in 1995, when Kurdish guerrillas grabbed eight soldiers and took them to bases in northern Iraq, where the group is still headquartered. The rebels released the soldiers two years later after human rights activists, lawmakers and family members visited the rebel hide-out.
An AP Television News cameraman saw a convoy of 50 military vehicles, loaded with soldiers and weapons, heading from the southeastern town of Sirnak toward Uludere, closer to the border with Iraq. It was unclear whether the vehicles were being sent to reinforce troops engaged in fighting with rebels on Turkish soil or were preparing for possible cross-border action. Tens of thousands of Turkish troops are already deployed in the border area.
More than 2,000 protesters in Istanbul, mostly members of an opposition party, denounced the attack by the PKK and urged the government of Erdogan to resign, the private Dogan news agency reported. In Ankara, hundreds convened at a main square shouting "Down with the PKK and USA!" Ambulances decorated with Turkish flags drove around main streets, their sirens wailing.
Some 13,000 schoolchildren in Bilecik in eastern Turkey held a minute of silence while people marched down a main street, waving the Turkish flag, the state-run Anatolia news agency reported.
In Bursa, in northwest Turkey, some protesters walked to a military conscription office and asked to enlist to fight rebels.
Turkey's military said Sunday it had launched an offensive backed by helicopter gunships in retaliation for the attack, shelling rebel positions along the rugged Turkish-Iraqi border.
The rebel attack occurred four days after Parliament authorized the government to deploy troops across the border in Iraq, amid growing anger in Turkey at perceived U.S. and Iraqi failure to live up to pledges to crack down on the PKK. Sunday's attack raised the death toll of soldiers in PKK attacks in the past two weeks to around 30.
#1
So, the Kurds are pro-American and really like what we have done for them in Iraq. Time then to call in a few chits and ask them to step on the neck of PKK get them to "cool it" until we can get the rest of Iraq under control. We certainly don't need the safest, most calm section of the country to blow up while we are defestering and pacifying the bad parts.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
10/22/2007 11:32 Comments ||
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#3
PKK needs to go after Iran if it wants us to stay off their neck. THat being said, if the Turks come over the border in force, then that is an act of war, and the Kurds and the Iraqi Army, backed by US airpower, should respond forcefully, to set an example for Iran and Syria.
#6
You may very well have something there Steve. I personally don't think we've got much to be concerned about. NATO member or no NATO member, the US has plenty of air power in the region to keep them from becoming too feisty.
#7
2 infantry divisions, 2 armored division and now moving Corps elements into the area.
They have shelled non PKK villages, and they have been interfering in N Iraq for years- remember in 03 and 04 we captured their intelligence operatives fometing "Turkmen" opposition to the Kurdish government, and cutting deals with the Sunnis for support of violence in the area.
This is not about the PKK - if it were they'd be operating agains the PKK in Syria as well.
This is an exercise in Turkish racism, tryign to stomp the Kurds iun Iraq before they enocourage the large number of Kurds in Turky to stand up for their rights.
And if they do come over the border, we will lose a large chunk of the most effective parts of the Iraqi Army formthe Baghdad area as the Kurds go north to defend thier homeland.
The Turks have screwed us once with the 4th ID, they screwed us again by having thier intel service foment trouble aroudn Kirkuk, and now they will do it again, by causing our efforts in Baghdad area to fall apart due to the Kurdish troops being pulled back to defend the north.
Bush needs to tell them in no uncertain terms that this is unacceptable, and that any heavy Tukish forces inside IRaq qill be struck with US Airpower. And that he is ordering the "Hteater Reserve" brigade in Kuwait to be moved opposte the Turk forces in the north to proide "Security", so that any Tukish forces will be met with US troops.
But Bush it too gutless to do it. He has Condoleeza kissing thier ass and is doign liek he has done the last severa times the Tuks hve messed with us: Nothing.
Start pulling our troops out of Turkey (Incirlik), put them at an airbase in Kurdish N Iraq and in or new bases in Romania.
And start treating Tuely according to their actions, not thier old alliance. They have made themselves and enemy - cut off ALL US Advisory and Funding from the Turks other than that required by NATO.
#8
The ambush on Sunday outraged an already frustrated public. Demonstrations erupted across the country and opposition leaders called for an immediate strike against rebel bases in Iraq, despite appeals for restraint from Iraq, the U.S. and European leaders.
Sounds almost like Israel's situation. Think the Turks would have even a remote bit of sympathy for Israel now? Nah! What was I thinking?!?
Any Turkish incursion into Iraq should be met by immediate and lethal American firepower. These Islamic thugocracies deserve one thing only, the back of our hand.
#9
Any Turkish incursion into Iraq should be met by immediate and lethal American firepower. These Islamic thugocracies deserve one thing only, the back of our hand
Any american incursion into Turky should be met by immediate and lethal Russian Cinese firepower
#11
I suspect they might as the two nations work closely together.
NS, while I know that you are referring to the recent Syrian incursion, I invite you to Google "Turkey denounces Palestinians" or "Turkey criticizes Palestinians". All you get are hits for Israel being criticized by other Islamic entities. I'm not so sure of how "closely" they work together.
(KUNA) -- A lone suicide attacker rammed a car packed with explosives into a police checkpoint in the governorate of Al-Anbar west of the Iraqi capital killing two policemen, sources said on Sunday. The Iraqi and American sources told KUNA the attack occurred late on Saturday in the region of Al-Saklawiah north of the provincial town of Al-Falloujah. The explosion killed two policemen and wounded four others.
Meanwhile, the American Army said in a statement a US soldier was killed and eight others were wounded in a bomb blast in eastern Baghdad on October 18. The explosion occurred during a combat mission by the American forces. The casualty figure rose the death toll suffered by the American forces since 2003 to 3,833.
Also on October 18, the American forces found a large arms depot for the insurgents in the town of Al-Dallouiah north of Baghdad. The clandestine depot included 41,000 pounds of explosives, 35 artillery shells and 300 cases used for making bombs. Al-Dallouiah, loctaed in Salah Eddine governorate, is known as a major stronghold for Al-Qaeda.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/22/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
This huge catch was reported on Saturday as 19 tons of explosive, yes ?
Two roadside bombs rocked the central Gaza Strip on Monday, destroying a Hamas police car and lightly wounding two bystanders, the group said.
There was no immediate claim of responsibility. But Hamas has accused the rival Fatah group of being behind a recent wave of bombings on Hamas targets in Gaza.
Hamas police and gunmen from the rival Islamic Jihad group exchanged fire for a second day Sunday in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, leaving at least one person dead and 13 wounded, medics said.
The ruling Hamas and the much smaller Islamic Jihad have very similar ideologies, and in the past cooperated in attacks against Israel. However, since seizing control of Gaza by force in June, Hamas has insisted only members of its security force can carry weapons in public.
In recent weeks, tensions have repeatedly flared between the two groups, including over control of a mosque in southern Gaza.
On Saturday, clashes erupted between Hamas and Islamic Jihad gunmen, after an Islamic Jihad activist was stopped in the street by Hamas security forces. A 51-year-old woman was killed in an exchange of fire, and each side kidnapped members of the other group.
On Sunday, violence flared again and medics said at least one person was killed. Rafah residents reported hearing loud explosions in their town.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/22/2007 00:00 ||
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October 22, 2007: The U.S. Air Force has produced an innovative dud with its new SDB (small diameter bomb). Turns out that while the SDB was being developed, a lot of cheaper competition showed up. Work began on the 250 pound SDB smart bomb, seven years ago. It was set to enter service in 2006, and did so. But the only aircraft equipped to drop it is the F-15E. The SDB was tested in the F-22 (PHOTO), but there are no plans to deploy F-22s carrying SBD, for several years.
SDB (small diameter bomb) is a completely new smart bomb design, weighing only 250 pounds. This weapon has a shape that's more like that of a missile than a bomb (70 inches long, 190 millimeters in diameter), with the guidance system built in. The smaller blast from the SDB is still pretty substantial (51 pounds of explosives). A new SDB design has a Focused Lethality Munition (FLM) warhead, which reduces the number of metal fragments created when the bomb explodes, and increases the blast effect. This is meant to reduce casualties to nearby civilians. But there are cheaper solutions to the $50,000 SDB.
Basically, if you add high precision to a bomb or missile, you increase its cost by $25-50,000. But while cost is a consideration, it's not the only one. You need just enough explosives to do the job. Too much bang, and you just endanger your own people. More important is availability. The infantry need their explosion when they need it, not when the air force gets around to it. Thus the army prefers to rely on precision weapons they control. One of the first, widely successful precision weapons to show up was the fifty pound TOW anti-tank missile. It has a 13 pound warhead, and, when wars broke out, was mainly used for taking out rooms in buildings where enemy gunmen were hiding. It was a TOW that got Saddam Husseins two sons four years ago. Every mech infantry unit has plenty of TOW missiles, and very few enemy tanks to use them on. So the TOW has become a very popular precision weapon for the ground troops. Since the 1990s, a more portable ground combat missile, and just as accurate as TOW, came along in the form of the 26 pound Javelin (PHOTO), with its nine pound warhead. These two missiles are expensive, with TOW costing $25,000 each, and Javelin $75,000.
For a smaller bang, there's the AT4 rocket launcher, and its four pound warhead. It's not laser guided, and you have to be pretty close to use it. But at the normal ranges its used (a hundred meters or so), it's very accurate, and it's cheap ($2,700). The LAW is similar, smaller (2.2 pound warhead) and cheaper ($2,000).
Helicopters and UAVs use Hellfire missiles, which weigh 100 pounds, and have a 20 pound warhead. A little less than half of a missile warhead is explosives. Hellfire is laser guided, and good for taking out vehicles full of bad guys, or small buildings. Hellfire costs $50,000 each. For about the same price you can use the 44 pound Viper Strike, and its four pound warhead. Even cheaper ($25,000 each), and smaller, are the new, laser guided 70mm rockets. There weigh 25 pounds and have a six pound warhead. The Viper Strike is a laser guided glide bomb that basically comes straight down. The 70mm rocket has a range of about six kilometers.
The army also has 155mm GPS guided 155mm shells (Excalibur ) . Each hundred pound shell has about 20 pounds of explosives (PHOTO). This makes for a bigger bang than Hellfire or Tow, but much less than smart bombs. There's also a 227mm MLRS GPS rocket (or GMLRS). But this carries over 150 pounds of explosives. About half the bang of a 500 pound JDAM. The GPS guided 155mm shell and MLRS rocket each cost over $50,000 each.
The big advantage of these GPS artillery munitions is that they are available to the troops 24/7, and the need for fewer rounds per mission means there are fewer problems with running out, or low, on supplies.
Price is not really a decisive factor when it comes to these weapons. The whole point of smart (much more accurate) munitions is to reduce the number of explosions, and to only blow up what needs to be destroyed. The proliferation of rockets, smart bombs and missiles, from those with a pound of explosives (LAW) to 500 pound bombs (with 280 pounds), gives troops a lot of flexibility on the battlefield. This makes American troops much more lethal, and greatly reduces friendly, and civilian, casualties.
Although the air force had smart (GPS guided) bombs since the late 1990s, these came in only two sizes; half ton and one ton. This proved to be too much blast for urban fighting. The need for less firepower compelled the air force to quickly modify its GPS guidance kit to fit on a 500 pound bomb. But that's still 280 pounds of explosives. The troops wanted precision, and less bang.
In response, the air force (actually, the navy) developed a 500 pound bomb with all but 30 pounds of the explosives removed. All these JDAM smart bombs cost less than $30,000 each. But JDAM requires an air force or navy jet to drop it, and an air force ground controller to call it in. It's much more convenient to call in army artillery, for either a GMLRS (if you need a big bang, one that's half as powerful as a 500 pound bomb) or an Excalibur shell (which is less than half the bang of a SDB). Thus there has not been a huge demand for SDB
Was just reading an article somewhere( wretchard's?) that said the Predator and its variants were going to carry the SDB. Capacity: 16, IIRC. Seems like a good fit. Is there something in current use that makes a good replacement for arming UAVs?
#2
I thought the really interesting features of the SDB were its standoff range (60 miles?), increasing the safety factor for airstrikes on defended localities, its difficulty of interception - unlike cruise missiles, its not going to be easily shot down - plus the large number that could be carried, which offered the possibility of saturating air defenses - a dozen F-15's could drop hundreds of SDB's on an enemy airfield at once.
The article is correct about the large number of options available for counterinsurgency operations, but the really interesting features of the SDB apply to more conventional warfare like suppressing air defenses, or attacking airfields or ships in port.
#3
The army has its own conflict, in that infantry units need what amounts to a light, direct fire cannon. But over a certain size, the artillery lays claim to cannon.
The round would be designed to penetrate fairly thick concrete. Unlike the M72 LAW, barrels would be multiple use, possibly bolt action.
The round itself could be 100 caliber or larger, with the bulk of the weapon devoted to recoil reduction. Barrel length would not be needed for long range accuracy, as with a 50 caliber rifle, but only long enough for suppressor equipment.
The purpose is to *quickly* deny enemy cover in an urban environment. Right now, it may be several minutes or longer after an enemy is known behind concrete cover to use air power or a heavier weapon to remove them.
But if that cover doesn't work, they will either have to leave immediately, or trust to luck that they don't get hit.
#4
SDBs and the Predator make a good fit. The Air Force is trying to get full control of all UAVs of any size. If the Army gets contol of Predator Q series it even further marginalizes the Air Force.
If you're in country with GPS Artillery and GPS MRLS, who needs F-15s standing off 60 miles away. Too expensive and too time sensitive to help the troops in need.
#5
GolfBravoUSMC, the AF already lost the battle for control of UAV development. In sort of a Pyrrhic victory, control of UAV development was pulled up to the DoD level and is now a purple suit function. The AF has been floundering about looking for a mission since the collapse of the Soviet Union (case in point is Cyber Command). The fighter pilot generals want to fill the skies with shiny new planes, F-22s, F-35s, C-17s, etc. That isn't going to happen. The AF has been getting steadily smaller since 1989 with no end in sight.
#6
The folks that don't think we will need F22, f35 forget that first you have to have control of the skies before all of the rest of the close air support stuff can be used. It may only be 3 days from the start but it is a critical 3 days. And if a quick response how do you think the troops, supplies & guns were transported to the fight? Gliders? Rockets? The Navy can't do it all.
I can't bring down arty fire if someone is blowing up my guns or spreading submunitions all over my TOC. And it's really hard to send numbers to the guns when someone has put shrapnel into my radios and I'm busy bleeding.
#7
There is certainly a place for the Air Force. I'm not sure it's orbiting F-22s and F-35s over Afgahnistan waiting for a support mission.
If you're talking about Iran, Syia, etc, They have to be taken down first and the AF is the outfit to do it.
You all may be aware of the story in Afgahnistan when a CH-46 load of Rangers went onto a mountain top to try to find a lost Seal. They got ambushed and were stuck on the mountain all day taking a beating from Talibunnies dug in at the top. It took time for the fast flyers to get there and then they could not be of complete help because the targets were danger close.
They made runs as close as they could but were called away leaving the Rangers pinned down. Finally a CIA Preditor happened by and took out the enemy bunker.
All I am saying is if we had the ground based GPS weapons availble at that time, how many brave men could have been saved.
#8
Throger Thains8048: I agree with you that in future war, the AF will not only be needed, but needed in numbers that haven't been seen since WWII.
Though the vast majority will be drone aircraft, once anybody makes a move towards drone aircraft, sheer numbers will once again come into play against quality. An F-16 might be able to engage six targets simultaneously, but what if there are twenty-five targets, all of whom are gunning for that F-16? And even if they are as cheap as a Toyota, each, and have only a machine gun, the F-16 can't stop them or even defend against them.
This, in turn means armadas of drones duking it out, with manned aircraft operating as a second echelon, taking out enemy drones that have penetrated the front.
#9
THere is still such a thing as "too many" separate armed services - "too many" is good for election-minded Pols but not good for War/Battle space Management and winning Victory. The day is coming when the USAF will lose control of tactical strike and airlift to the Army, and will be in charge of ICBM and LR heavy bomber [UAV] strategic strike, and prob OTH Global BMD. As America moves towards cheaper, effective, pervasive "Genius" unmanned technology, Amers should anticpate the curr separate armed services to become more unified/centralized and into top mgt-style strategic centricity. NO FIELD SOLDIERS, ONLY ROBO HANDLERS = REMOTE? OPERATORS, REPAIR TECHNICIANS. and ultimately only PAPER/BUREACRATIC-ADMIN "TOP MANAGERS". NOW LETS ALL BE GOOD OWG AMERIKANS OF THE MIGHTY WORLD CONQUERING USSA = WEAK ANTi-SOVEREIGN USR/GLOBAL SSR AND SING THE "BATTLESTAR GALACTICA/I, ROBOT" MOVIE THEME.
#10
Moose, those robots may win the war but men will still be required to win the peace as we have learned in both Iraq & Aphganistan. Reliance on tech (plus well trained men) rolled up the "formal" opposition but left us to learn how to deal with "informal" opposition.
In addition I think it will be a long time before the eyes on the ground, the combat engineers and all of those odd-ball specialties that require judgement are not required. I suspect "robots" will be specialized tools in their toolbox.
Of course, if you don't care where the blood, bones and debris land then robots will work fine.
A man hurled a grenade into a crowd near a public market in a southern Philippine city, killing three children and wounding six other people, police said Sunday.
Police arrested a man who witnesses claimed threw the grenade late Saturday near the market in Iligan city, in an area where candidates were holding a campaign rally ahead of October 29 village elections, said police investigator Enrique Belacaol.
Belacaol said witnesses claimed the man, who was being investigated, pulled the grenade's pin and put the explosive in a bag before hurling it toward a crowd, where it killed three children, wounded six other people and caused panic.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/22/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
String him up on piano wire, in little bitty pieces. Anyone who kills children just for the jihad of it needs to be treated as the worst form of human swine imaginable. Maybe if enough such swine end up in that kind of condition, the next group won't be so likely to kill kids.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
10/22/2007 13:24 Comments ||
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COLOMBO —Tamil Tiger rebels' aircraft bombed an air force base in a daring predawn attack Monday in northern Sri Lanka that also involved ground fighting, resulting in at least six deaths, according to information from both sides. The army said the government side's casualties include two air force pilots and two gunners killed when their helicopter crash-landed amid the attack on Anuradhapura air base, located in North Central Province, about 170 kilometers northeast of Colombo.
In addition, ground fighting between the rebels and government troops resulted in the death of an air force officer and an army soldier, it said, while also acknowledging 18 injuries.
Two Russian-made MI-24 gunships that had been parked in a hanger were damaged, it said, in a statement on its website. The army cited unconfirmed reports of 10 rebels being killed.
"This is the first time the Tigers have carried out both air and ground attacks in a raid," said the TamilNet website of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam.
The first news of the early morning air strike stunned Sri Lankans fed in recent weeks by government propaganda on military successes in the wake of the eviction of the separatist rebels from the multiethnic Eastern Province earlier this year.
"Tiger terrorists in a predawn ground attack tried to overrun the air force base with the support of two LTTE light aircraft," the army said in the statement. "Two shells were dropped immediately after the ground attack by the infiltrators," it said.
The Sri Lanka Air Force has in recent weeks been bombing LTTE positions almost on a daily basis, with government air power posing a major threat to the rebels.
The LTTE, using what the government says are small Czech-made light aircraft powered by a single engine, first demonstrated air capability by bombing the main air force base adjoining the country's only international airport in March this year. The government beefed up its air defenses following that attack, which was followed by two more that caused little damage.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Taliban militants used Afghan civilians as human shields during a battle with US forces in eastern Afghanistan in which 20 Taliban and one civilian were killed and 11 civilians wounded, officials said Sunday. 
(Interfax) - A police officer was fatally wounded inn an attack in Grozny on Saturday. "Unidentified assailants opened gunfire from a ruined building at a patrol vehicle carrying three police officers in Grozny's Oktyabrsky district. One of the policemen was fatally wounded," a source in law enforcement services told Interfax on Sunday. Five expended cartridges were discovered at the scene of the attack, he said.
The jury in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism-financing trial was unable to reach unanimous decisions on three of the six defendants, U.S. District Judge Joe Fish said Monday as he unsealed their verdicts.
(KUNA) -- A lone suicide attacker rammed a car packed with explosives into a police checkpoint in the governorate of Al-Anbar west of the Iraqi capital killing two policemen, sources said on Sunday. The Iraqi and American sources told KUNA the attack occurred late on Saturday in the region of Al-Saklawiah north of the provincial town of Al-Falloujah. The explosion killed two policemen and wounded four others.
Hamas police and gunmen from the rival Islamic Jihad group exchanged fire for a second day Sunday in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, leaving at least one person dead and 13 wounded, medics said. 
October 22, 2007: The U.S. Air Force has produced an innovative dud with its new SDB (small diameter bomb). Turns out that while the SDB was being developed, a lot of cheaper competition showed up. Work began on the 250 pound SDB smart bomb, seven years ago. It was set to enter service in 2006, and did so. But the only aircraft equipped to drop it is the F-15E. The SDB was tested in the F-22 (PHOTO), but there are no plans to deploy F-22s carrying SBD, for several years. 
