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US Begins Major Push against Defiant Sadr
Today's Headlines
Headline Comments [Views]
Page 1: WoT Operations
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Britain
UK Investigators Examining 100 Computers of Terror Suspects
From The New York Times
A British prosecutor said Wednesday that authorities had seized 100 computers containing thousands of computer files and had issued 52 terrorism-related warrants in the investigation that led to charges against eight men in conspiracy to commit murder in an alleged terror plot. The prosecutor, Sue Hemming, emphasized that investigators were at "the very early stages of a complex investigation," and described the inquiry to date as only the "tip of the iceberg." In charges announced Tuesday by Scotland Yard, all eight of the men were accused of conspiring together and with "other persons unknown" to use radioactive materials, toxic gases, and chemicals or explosives to "cause disruption, fear or injury." ...

She told the judge, Timothy Workman, that "documents have been found" indicating that some of the accused "may have been sourcing" materials from shops or companies. Evidence collected, she said, suggested that the authorities might have uncovered at least one such attempt. ... Arguing against bail, Ms. Hemming told the judge the men all had a "strong and deeply held ideology" and were "prepared to carry out dangerous acts." ...

A total of 13 men were arrested in police raids on Aug. 3, and under the terrorism laws the police had two weeks to charge the men or release them. Two have been released without any charges; two others have been rearrested solely in connection with suspected forged identity documents. The last of the 13 was charged with firearms violations.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 08/19/2004 9:14:49 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Jackpot!
I suspect +95% of the files will be pr0n, but still gold is where you find it.
I hope I live long enough to see the records from this war declassified. hopefully it will make for fascinating reading.
Posted by: N Guard || 08/19/2004 9:25 Comments || Top||

#2  British Cop : OK - Heres the deal Habib, you talk to us, or we will get word to your Imam about those naked pictures of blonde actresses on your hard drive. I understand your Mosque does honor killings against those who stray?

Habib : You stupid infidel, I got the pics from the Imam. HA!
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 12:39 Comments || Top||

#3  insallah
opensesame
deathtojews
deathtoamerica
deathtobush
(my first camels name)
(my current camels name)
19

Helpful password hints for the Brits.
Call me.... I've got more.


Posted by: Shipman || 08/19/2004 16:00 Comments || Top||

#4  Shipman -- camels are for rich princelings! Middle class terrorist types are stuck with sheep and goats ;-)

Good password suggestions, though. May I add "ankle" to the list?
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/19/2004 16:11 Comments || Top||

#5  insallah opensesame deathtojews deathtoamerica deathtobush (my first camels name) (my current camels name) 19 Helpful password hints for the Brits. Call me.... I've got more

Better password cracker
Posted by: badanov || 08/19/2004 16:21 Comments || Top||


Teenage terror suspect arrested
A 19-year-old man has been arrested in Birmingham under the Terrorism Act. The man, who has not yet been named, was arrested in Gleave Road, Selly Oak at 0400 BST on Thursday. He is currently being held at an unnamed police station, where he will be questioned by officers. Police are understood to be conducting further inquiries in Selly Oak, where two men, aged 24 and 36, were also arrested in relation to alleged immigration matters.

According to the Home Office there have been 609 arrests under terrorism legislation between September 11, 2001 and 30 June 2004. Of those people, 99 have been charged with terrorism-related offences, and 15 convicted. Eight men - arrested in anti-terrorist raids two weeks ago - appeared before a judge at Belmarsh magistrates court in south-east London on Wednesday. They were charged with conspiring to commit murder and conspiring to launch radioactive or chemical attacks. All were remanded in custody for a week. An anti-terror police spokesman said the arrest in Birmingham was not related to this operation.
Posted by: Uncle Monty || 08/19/2004 04:47 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The systematic persecution of the muslim minority continues apace.
Posted by: Howard UK || 08/19/2004 4:53 Comments || Top||

#2  As it should, as it should...

Thus spake Zarathustra.
Posted by: Zarathustra || 08/19/2004 5:13 Comments || Top||

#3  19 is an Adult. Teenaged in name only.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 08/19/2004 9:41 Comments || Top||

#4  The BBC would like to think that 19 is below the age of criminal responsibility. In fact, the BBC would like to think all jihadees are exempt from criminal responsibility. It's our security services persecuting perpetual victims, y'see...
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 12:15 Comments || Top||

#5  Good observation, FlameBait. I keep seeing a rather obnoxious sign on the Mass. Turnpike (near Fenway Park) whose face changes every few months but the theme remains constant - GUNS ARE BAD!!

I mention it because the billboard constantly refer to 'teenagers' and 'children' as 'victims' of gun violence. I was never able to verify two inquiries I'd have for them - how many 'teenagers / children' are in fact 18 or 19, and how many of them are / were gangbangers?
Posted by: Raj || 08/19/2004 12:17 Comments || Top||

#6  GUNS ARE BAD Mmm'kay?
Posted by: Mr. Mackey || 08/19/2004 12:24 Comments || Top||

#7  No really Mr Mackey you really need to try a hit of this.

Yea same here. The "children" usually are criminal gansters with repeated arrests. The only children killed are the victims of their gang warfare caught in the cross fire. Seeing how none of my guns have ever been responsible of the death of a Child or Adult I can see no reason that my guns need control "for the children." Living in California I have about no "rights". It is true Ted Kenedy's car has killed more people than my guns.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 08/19/2004 22:36 Comments || Top||


Caribbean-Latin America
El Salvador Sends Troops to Iraq Despite Threats
SAN SALVADOR, El Salvador (Reuters) - El Salvador sent a new contingent of troops to join the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq on Thursday despite repeated threats from Islamic militants that they would strike against the country in retaliation. Gen. Carlos Soto said 150 soldiers flew out from a military air base south of the capital San Salvador early in the morning for a six-month stint in Iraq, and another 230 will be deployed between Friday and Sunday.
El Salvador joined the Iraq coalition last year and this is its third contingent to fly out to the war. It was sent to replace a 380-strong group of soldiers due to return home soon.
Bravo!

A string of threats have been posted by Islamic militants on Web sites warning El Salvador's conservative, pro-U.S. government that it will pay dearly unless it pulls its forces out of Iraq for good. Earlier this week, one group gave El Salvador 20 days to abandon the Iraq coalition or face the consequences.
"This is the last chance after which there will not be any more statements, only bloodshed," said the warning issued by Mohammed Atta Brigades -- al Qaeda of Jihad.
Other Web site messages warned of attacks inside El Salvador and pledged to make Iraq a "hell" for the arriving troops.
El Salvador's President Tony Saca responded by ordering tighter security at key installations inside the Central American nation but he insisted he would not back down.
El Salvador's soldiers have been posted in the southern Iraqi city of Najaf, a scene of fierce fighting in recent days. Although they do not have a front-line role, they have come under repeated attack. One soldier was killed and 12 were wounded in April. Leaders of the main opposition party had already criticized the deployment in Iraq and they said this week that Saca would be to blame if Islamic militants strike against the nation.
"It is a serious error to keep sending Salvadoran troops to Iraq ... This government is responsible if anything happens to any citizen," said Salvador Sanchez of the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front, which fought a 12-year civil war against U.S.-backed governments before signing peace accords in 1992 and becoming a political party.
Typical commie loser.
Posted by: Steve || 08/19/2004 10:30:11 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  My recollection is that US troops who are familiar with the role played by El Salvadorean troops believe them to be some of the bravest, most steadfast troops in the coalition.

My most heartfelt welcome to the new warriors battling the forces of anarchy.
Posted by: Lone Ranger || 08/19/2004 11:05 Comments || Top||

#2  Please forward this article to the asshats running TV ads saying Bush is "alone in Iraq and spending billions unilaterally".
Posted by: Chris W. || 08/19/2004 11:54 Comments || Top||

#3  Senor Sanchez-your government will also be responsible if you placate terrorism, a step once taken dooms your "citizens" to life-and-death blackmail thereafter.

Thank you, President Saca. You are brave and loyal.
Posted by: jules 187 || 08/19/2004 12:47 Comments || Top||

#4  Salvdoran politics sounds like US politics.
Gutsy President, weaseley opposition.
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 12:55 Comments || Top||

#5  ¿Quién es más macho? ¡El Salvador es más mcho!
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 08/19/2004 15:25 Comments || Top||

#6  Everytime that Kerry talks about reconnecting with our "allies," he is insulting the Salvadorans.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/19/2004 22:54 Comments || Top||


Europe
Dutch police hold Madrid suspects
Police in the Netherlands are questioning a number of people in connection with the Madrid bombings which left 191 people dead on 11 March. Nine people were detained in the southern town of Roosendaal, near the Belgian border on Wednesday. A Spanish interior ministry spokesman said investigators had been sent to the Netherlands to help identify suspects. One man, who is the subject of an international arrest warrant, is among those held, reports suggest. The Dutch and Spanish media have identified him as Mohamed Belhadj, a 24-year-old Moroccan who faces an international arrest warrant issued by the Spanish judge investigating the attacks. The Dutch national public prosecutor's office would not confirm the reports.
Posted by: Steve || 08/19/2004 10:28:44 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It's not him. The man has been released but was re-arrested for drug possession.
Posted by: Peter || 08/19/2004 12:26 Comments || Top||


'9-11 helper driven by Hitler love anti-Israeli beliefs'
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
Aug. 18, 2004 23:15
HAMBURG - A Moroccan accused of helping the Sept. 11 suicide hijackers was part of a group that raged against the United States "because it defends Israel" and himself approved of Hitler's extermination of the Jews, witnesses testified Wednesday.
One more reason to call the Islamists brown turbans shirts and get it over with.
Sudanese student Ahmed Maglad, 30, testified he met defendant Mounir el Motassadeq while living in Hamburg in 1997 and through him met lead suicide pilot Mohamed Atta, who he said was "aggressively religious" and was always trying to "prove something." Maglad told the Hamburg state court he also knew Ramzi Binalshibh, the suspected contact between al-Qaida and the Hamburg cell that included three of the suicide pilots. "Everybody spoke out against the United States because it defends Israel," Maglad said. The Hamburg group believed that "the foundation of Israel was unjustified, and the Palestinian conflict was always a topic for Atta." Appearing at el Motassadeq's retrial, Maglad said Atta became "too much" for him — one reason he changed schools and moved to Berlin in 1998. He portrayed el Motassadeq as firmly allied with Atta. "Mounir and Atta didn't have any quarrels and Mounir once suggested when I was of a different opinion that I should be quiet," Maglad testified.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 12:21:41 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The links to Hitler are not entirely specious. A major source of Arab troops for the Waffen SS was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - the cousin of Yasser Arafat - yep, THAT yasser Arafat. Also, check into the history of Nasser as well as the history of the early leaders of the Arab wars against Israel.
Posted by: OldSpook || 08/19/2004 1:00 Comments || Top||

#2  OldSpook, here's a link to the Arab/Nazi connection you are mentioning. All of them were admirers of Hitler and the Holocaust. For that alone they each deserve to catch a slug.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 1:16 Comments || Top||

#3  ...Interestingly enough, the one Muslim SS unit that was officially put together - SS Die Kama - didn't last that long, as its Muslim members spent more time looting/raping/pillaging Christians in the Balkans than following orders. Himmler was so embarassed by their performance that he had them quietly disbanded.

Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski || 08/19/2004 8:57 Comments || Top||

#4  Germany-Your populace's "tolerance" of the ideas these moron martyrs espouse had an effect-it created a "safe haven" environment for people that "helped" murder more than 3000 of our citizens. It is simply astounding to me that a country which has been humiliated and shamed for its crimes against humanity of 60 years ago, a country that the US bailed out and nurtured for return to the "international community", finds it somehow more palatable to sympathize with terrorists than with the US. Germany-Wake up. Are you gonna be on the wrong side again?
Posted by: jules 187 || 08/19/2004 11:32 Comments || Top||

#5  The former ruling party of Iraq was initially named the National Socialist Arab Renewal Party of Iraq. It was later shorted to Renewal (Ba'ath).
Posted by: jackal || 08/19/2004 12:10 Comments || Top||

#6  Note that this is EXACTLY the kind of article that Antisemite never posts a comment about.
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 13:59 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Saudi-Paid Somali Preacher Arrested for Funding Terrorists
From The Washington Post.
Omar Abdi Mohamed, a lanky, soft-spoken political refugee from war-ruined Somalia in East Africa, had been preaching the word of Islam in the United States for the past nine years. Two things make him unusual. In January, U.S. immigration authorities arrested him, saying they suspected him of being a conduit for terrorist funds, federal court records show. At the time, he was on the payroll of Saudi Arabia's government.

Mohamed was one of 30 Saudi-financed preachers in this country. Each month, the Saudis paid $1,700 to the 44-year-old, who taught the Koran at a run-down Somali social center here [San Diego]. He worked with little supervision from Saudi religious authorities 8,000 miles away. In the late 1990s, he set up a small charity to help famine victims in Somalia, and that is how his trouble began. The charity received $326,000 over three years from the Global Relief Foundation, a private Islamic charity based in Illinois. In October 2002, the U.S. Treasury Department designated Global Relief a terrorist-financing entity linked to al Qaeda. ...

At the end of one trail is Mohamed. Another avenue of interest involves the global finances of the al Haramain Islamic Foundation, a large Saudi-government-supported charity set up to propagate Wahhabism and sometimes referred to as "the United Way of Saudi Arabia." Al Haramain, which has an office in Ashland, Ore., sent Mohamed $5,000. .... The Saudi government has severed ties with Mohamed, who is charged only with immigration violations, but he insists he did nothing wrong. A hearing is set for Sept. 1 in San Diego. The terrorist suspicions against Mohamed appear to rest on financial transactions that raise questions but do not provide answers, court records show. Global Relief denies it funds terrorism.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 08/19/2004 9:07:25 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
Pakistan turns on itself
Under immense pressure from the United States, a slow and gradual operation has begun in Pakistan against the strongest political voice of Islamists and the real mother of international Islamic movements, of which Osama bin Laden's International Islamic Front is the spoiled child. In a surprise move this week, Pakistan's federal minister of the interior, Faisal Saleh Hayat, listed a number of incidences in which members of the Jamaat-i-Islami (JI), the premier fundamentalist party in the country, had been tied to al-Qaeda, and called on it to "explain these links". "It is a matter of concern that Jamaat-e-Islami, which is a main faction of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal [MMA], has neither dissociated itself from its activists having links with the al-Qaeda network nor condemned their activities," Faisal said, adding that "one could derive a meaning out of its silence".
One could, couldn't one?
The MMA is an alliance of six religious parties that gained unprecedented electoral victories in national elections in 2002. One of its members is the leader of the opposition in the Lower House, while the MMA controls the provincial government in North West Frontier Province. It also forms part of a coalition government in Balochistan province. The MMA has 67 seats in the 342-seat National Assembly, with just under a third of them held by the JI. Asia Times Online predicted that the JI would be targeted and now contacts confirm that moves have already started against associates of the JI in its strongest political constituency, Karachi. The next phase will most likely be in Rawalpindi and southern Punjab. Several close affiliates are believed to have been arrested by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) without charges being laid against them.
If ISI is doing the arresting, I don't imagine anybody will stay in jug very long. ISI cleaning up JI is kind of like eating your own foot...
The JI's leader, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, subsequently denied that his party had any links with al-Qaeda or other militant organizations. "We do not believe in violence," Qazi said.
... which is a demonstrably untrue statement.

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 8:37:09 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "We do not believe in violence," Qazi said

he meant against JI
Posted by: Frank G || 08/19/2004 21:23 Comments || Top||

#2  The elephant in the room.
Posted by: Lucky || 08/20/2004 0:35 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
U.S. Planes Target Sadr's Fighters in Najaf
U.S. warplanes pounded areas near a shrine where radical Shi'ite militiamen were holed up early on Friday after their leader, Moqtada al-Sadr, defied a final demand from Iraq's interim prime minister to disarm. U.S. AC-130 gunships struck repeatedly at positions held by Sadr's Mehdi Army fighters, who have sheltered in and near the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf, sacred to Shi'ites around the world.

Orange flashes and white sparks lit the night sky above the city. The explosions shook houses throughout Najaf, but it was not clear if they marked the start of a major offensive against Mehdi fighters threatened by the interim Iraqi government. A large cloud of smoke rose from the ancient Wadi al-Salam (Valley of Peace) cemetery, which is near the mosque complex and where Sadr's supporters have fought U.S. troops for two weeks. Armored vehicles appeared to head to the battle zone around the golden domed mosque and the burial ground, from where heavy machinegun fire echoed. Witnesses said there were several hundred militiamen holed up in the sprawling mosque complex. "This is the final call for them to disarm, vacate the holy shrine, engage in political work and consider the interests of the homeland," interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi told a Baghdad news conference on Thursday. A letter purportedly from Sadr urged militiamen to give up the shrine to Najaf's religious authority, but rejected demands to disband the Mehdi Army and join Iraq's political process. But the document, circulating in Najaf, carried a seal that was not consistent with marks of previous letters from Sadr and fighting raged on.
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 6:40:18 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "we surrender!"

"What? We can't hear you over the 'death from the skies' Spooky or the mortars, or the M-16's or the .50's. Call back later when it's quieter!"
Posted by: Frank G || 08/19/2004 19:15 Comments || Top||

#2  The Iraqi government needs to repeatedly bring the point home that Tater's militia are defiling the mosque by their actions. They need to take any legitimacy perceived away from Tater and his cause. Also any more evidence showing Iran's involvement in Tater and tots needs to be brought forward and publicized. The propaganda war is an important part of this battle, too.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/19/2004 19:23 Comments || Top||

#3  AP I agree. They also need to get pics of Sadr defiling the Mosque and the tots using human shields and wallpaper Sadr city with them.

Tater is just the sort of man to grab and hide behind a baby or child to protect his unholy skin. I hope whoever goes in brings along video equipment!
Posted by: CrazyFool || 08/19/2004 19:39 Comments || Top||

#4  Blood for Eleanor!
Posted by: Shipman || 08/19/2004 20:13 Comments || Top||

#5  When Spooky and Spectre speak only the dead are left to respond. I think that it will very quickly become much harder for Sadr to find spokespersons.
Posted by: RWV || 08/19/2004 20:42 Comments || Top||

#6  "Is that a white flag or just a well bleached keffiyah?"

"Hard to tell from here, Sarge."

"Well, shoot at it and see if any blood comes out."

"Sir!"
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 21:02 Comments || Top||

#7  Well, the AC130 is very very precise when it wants to be. SOunds to me like they are doing a little Urban Renewal around the perimeter of the Mosque. Clearer fields of fire to keep the bastards heads down behind the mosque walls, whiel the Iraqi SF sets up the breach and entry points (probably out of the sewers).
Posted by: OldSpook || 08/19/2004 22:17 Comments || Top||

#8  Good point, Old Spook. The building sewer itself would be way too small for entry into or exit out of the shrine, but nearby manholes could provide tunnels (gross duty, blech!) for Tater and the Tots, though Tater may be a bit rotund for duty here. I am sure that the military commanders have this area covered.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/19/2004 22:25 Comments || Top||

#9  U.S. AC-130 gunships struck repeatedly at positions held by Sadr's Mehdi Army fighters, who have sheltered in and near the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf, sacred to Shi'ites around the world.

I would definitely not want to be anywhere near the end of a minigun's bullet stream.....
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 22:28 Comments || Top||

#10  The 7.62 (25MM) minigun, or the 40MM Bofors, or the phreaking 105MM phreaking Howitzer... Spectre (H model) or Spooky (U model)... When you absolutely positively have to kill every motherfucker in the room moskkk -- without harming a hair on the head of anyone outside. Demand the best.
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 22:31 Comments || Top||

#11  I've heard that a minigun can put one slug into every square yard of a football field with a single sweep. Any confirmation on this?

Here's hoping the Spectres' next touch and go is Janjaweed Central. Those maggots want deserve need it every bit as bad.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 23:06 Comments || Top||

#12  Link to an amazingly factual Reuters report on the Najaf action.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 23:28 Comments || Top||

#13  re. the Reuters report, last line:

The aircraft was first used during the Vietnam war to destroy concentrations of enemy troops.

They always have to sneak in a Nam reference, don't they?
Posted by: spiffo || 08/20/2004 0:42 Comments || Top||

#14  In some religions burning is a way of purifying. Woudl daisy-cutters damage the graveyard?
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/20/2004 0:47 Comments || Top||


Tater Saves His Neck Tells Militia to Turn Over Shrine
An aide to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr said the militant leader instructed his followers late Thursday to hand control of a revered shrine to top religious authorities in Iraq.
Whatever happened to "victory or death"?
It turned into "Victory or a nice quiet place in the country with good takeout near-by."
A top al-Sadr aide, Aws al-Khafaji, told the pan-Arab Al-Jazeera television station that the cleric asked his militia to give control of the Imam Ali Shrine compound to officials from the office of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Iraq's top Shiite Muslim cleric. The government had called on al-Sadr's followers to disarm, evacuate the shrine and disband their militia or Iraqi forces would storm the holy site and wipe them out.
They saw all those Kurds, who weren't impressed by the size of their turbans...
Al-Arabiya television showed a copy of a letter al-Sadr reportedly sent to his followers late Thursday. The handwritten letter had al-Sadr's office's seal, but not his signature, the station said.
"I didn't sign it, so it's not binding, so I can do anything I want."
"I call on the religious authority again to receive the shrine so that it won't be taken by the hands of the enemy and of treason. I have offered it to you before and you have refused before the (latest) incidents," the letter read. However, al-Sadr refused to disband the militia, according to the letter, saying it belonged to Imam Mahdi, the Shiite messiah. "Let everyone know that this army is the Imam Mahdi's base, and I have no right to ever disband it," the letter said.
"I'm only runnin' it for him, see?"
It also rejected any political role for al-Sadr's followers. "I will never take part in any political work as along as the occupation is there. I will continue, all my life, to build Iraq, its freedom, independence and liberation," the letter said.
What about all those dead guys who believed in you? Wotta putz.
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 4:59:20 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Does this mean we are not getting rid of him?
Posted by: Ol_Dirty_American || 08/19/2004 17:05 Comments || Top||

#2  Al-Arabiya television showed a copy of a letter al-Sadr reportedly sent to his followers late Thursday. The handwritten letter had al-Sadr's office's seal, but not his signature, the station said.

This is the Sadrite version of "hemming and hawing". Why this jerk is being humored repeatedly is beyond me. Send in the Iraqi commandos to kill him already.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 17:11 Comments || Top||

#3  Not if he isn't shutting down the Mahdi Army. Allawi (and the US) wants him out of the way. The trick is doing it so that Sistani & the Shiites don't kick after the fact. This may buy Tater a day, so that kickoff is sometime Saturday through Monday. But he's going to meet his 72 raisins sooner rather than later.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 08/19/2004 17:12 Comments || Top||

#4  What about all those dead guys who believed in you?
- - - - -
Sadr would say, "They got their virgins, so shaddap. They aren't my problem anymore. I gotta worry about hundreds of itchy fingered Kurds when I leave."
- - - - - -
We ought to "Yasin" him when he shows his ugly face. Then let his Maddy Army use the paint scrapers to clean up his mess.
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 17:17 Comments || Top||

#5  From the live pictures of Najaf on BBC (new24), it doesn't seem like any ceasefire is in place. There are explosions occuring fairly regularly (say once every 15 mins), and there are large fires evident on the horizon.
Posted by: Lux || 08/19/2004 17:20 Comments || Top||

#6  Fox just showed a live shot of the fighting ........someone is getting the crap knocked out of them.
Posted by: Anonymous5668 || 08/19/2004 17:29 Comments || Top||

#7  toldja. as soon as he see's that he's in danger, he becomes yer bestest buddy. What a friggin' hypocrite.

And his followers sorta remind ya of the palis -- useful idiots. who die. unpleasantly.
Posted by: PlanetDan || 08/19/2004 17:39 Comments || Top||

#8  Wuss.
Posted by: Seafarious || 08/19/2004 18:03 Comments || Top||

#9  Note to World: Keep your eyes on the prize.

What about Sadr?!? To hell with the shrine. Sadr must be detained upon vacating the premises. Anything less constitutes yet one more incremental victory for this supreme waste of skin. All of Sadr's pronouncements are merely prestidigitation and misdirection. Stop following the magician's visible hand and look at the one that's under the table. Sadr must be apprehended for there to be any solution forthcoming, nothing less is acceptable.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 18:04 Comments || Top||

#10  yup, z, but if he runs for it we keep after him, and this time he doesnt have the shrine to protect him.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 18:06 Comments || Top||

#11  Yet another delaying tactic. Tomorrow he will be all 'To the last drop of my blood' on us again....

I wonder what he is waiting for? Does he think the Iranian army will come rescue him? Perhaps he thinks Allen himself will come lend a hand....
Posted by: CrazyFool || 08/19/2004 18:11 Comments || Top||

#12  am i the only one who gets the feeling that things are happening alot faster now, and that we're gonna get a couple of days of thick fog of war?
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 18:21 Comments || Top||

#13  Looks like Allawi's not buying it. AC130s thumping the vicinity, to include the cemetary. I'll be happy to change today's screamer...
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 18:36 Comments || Top||

#14  yup, z, but if he runs for it we keep after him, and this time he doesnt have the shrine to protect him.

Shrine, schoolhouse, orphanage, hospital ... they're all the same to Sadr. Cordon off the shrine and screen every single person coming out of it. These are the hardcore insurgent elements in Najaf. Time to secure their identities or detain them or both. No one gets out unless they are screened, least of all Sadr himself. If this does not occur, expect another iteration of this to happen all over again. Sadr is not embarrassed by any sort of failure or betrayal upon his own part. He is uncontaminated by such concepts as integrity or honor. All that matters to him is his own political and material success. Both of which must be brought up short, pronto!
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 18:38 Comments || Top||

#15  am i the only one who gets the feeling that things are happening alot faster now, and that we're gonna get a couple of days of thick fog of war?

Nope, I don't think what ever gonna happen is happening, but it's damn close to getting ready to start happening and it's unlikely the press will be informed of the happening.
Posted by: Shipman || 08/19/2004 18:41 Comments || Top||

#16  Ship, are you saying that "there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns?"
Posted by: Seafarious || 08/19/2004 18:45 Comments || Top||

#17  i think it is happening - we jsst underestimate how long it takes to happen - as of noon, per CNN there were still sadrists in the streets outside the shrine, and there was heavy sniper fire going both ways. Once we clear that, and the Iraqis get set to go in, theyre gonna have sniper fire coming down at them from the shrine, and theres gonna have to be suppression fire (by USMC) for the commandos to even get close. Then the raids begin, with the first few probably focused on gathering info. Meanwhile tater sends out contradictory info, tries to cut a vague deal with someone, and maybe even tries to run for it throught the chaos, as zen suggests.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 18:46 Comments || Top||

#18  "I don't think what ever gonna happen is happening, but it's damn close to getting ready to start happening..."

In other words, things are more like they are now than they've ever been before?
Posted by: Dave D. || 08/19/2004 18:47 Comments || Top||

#19  Sistani & the Shiites

Cool name for a band...
Posted by: Raj || 08/19/2004 18:58 Comments || Top||

#20  I have been gone for a few days, but it seems to me that controlling the variables by and large determines the outcome. We need to control:

1. Food
2. Water
3. Ammo
4. Weapons
5. Other supplies
6. The Media
7. Comm with the outside world
8. Propaganda

1 and 2 and 5 we can largely control by cordoning off the shrine.

3 we can do the same. They probably have lots of ammo stored, but it is still a finite amount.

4. They have lots of weapons. They cannot get any more.

5. Kicking the media out was a step in the right direction (finally!)

7. Hopefully any phone lines are cut to the shrine. Cell phones can be neutralized by cutting off the repeaters. Sat phones can be jammed or compromised.

8. Propaganda can be Allawis if he wants. Tater has been cut off from his audience, as long as the Iraqi government puts its foot down on this issue. Tater needs to have the rug pulled on his forum.

Since the variables can now be controlled, the heat can now be cranked up on these thirsty chaps and the siege can be done in earnest. It will take time but the Tater issue can now be concluded, if Allawi has the will to do it and take the heat.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/19/2004 19:43 Comments || Top||

#21  More or less precisely Seafarious. On the money or thereabouts.
Posted by: Shipman || 08/19/2004 20:16 Comments || Top||

#22  #15,16,& 21. Now we know who has been writing over Col. Flagg's signature.
Posted by: GK || 08/19/2004 20:54 Comments || Top||

#23  I sure would like to have some very large (30m square) solar mirrors right about now, that I could focus in on the front doors of the Shrine. Aim two outside focus mirrors toward a central focus, crank up the heat to about 3500 degrees, and let the sun do the work for me... Listen to the sizzle as long pig bacon fries. Most Americans are too soft-hearted to fight a really NASTY war. With people like al Sadr, the nastier we fight the better. Let them know that no matter how nasty they think they are, we can be ten times worse, and still not use "banned" weapons - just a little ingenuity.
Posted by: Old Patriot || 08/19/2004 22:08 Comments || Top||

#24  Interesting that Sistani's still in London... = Green light to Allawi. Bring it to a conclusion already.
Posted by: lex || 08/20/2004 0:13 Comments || Top||

#25  Will a daisy cutter hurt the mosque? Could it be dropped with one of the new GPS guided parachutes to make sure that it eliminates the graveyard infestation. I wonder how many Mahdi would be enthusiastic about death by simultaneous immolation and asphyxiation.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/20/2004 0:55 Comments || Top||

#26  Daisy cutters were designed to clear helicopter landing zones in the jungle. The daisies in question were the trees in the area where a landing was planned. If entire trees can be cut down by a daisy cutter, I don't think you need to strain hard to figure out what might happen to an old mosque.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 08/20/2004 1:10 Comments || Top||


US Begins Major Push against Defiant Sadr
Fierce firefights broke out in the Iraqi holy city of Necef (Najaf) as US forces began their assault on radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Al-Sadr and his militia after the group failed to withdraw from the Imam Ali Tomb within the time provided. Qatar-based Al Arabiya television broadcast images of violent clashes near the holy Tomb. No further statement has been issued regarding the clashes so far. Just before the fighting broke out, Sadr Spokesman and Mahdi Army Commander Sheikh Ahmed Shaybani reported that Sadr rejected the Iraqi National Conference's demands to end the revolt. Shaybani told reporters inside the Tomb that they absolutely refuse the demands of Conference. He claims that the demands are not in the line with what they had agreed upon.
What part about "unconditional surrender" aren't you getting?
Interim Iraqi State Minister Kasim Davud set some demands earlier today, which included Sadr disarming his militia, ending the revolt, and withdrawing from the Tomb. Military force would be used against Sadr if these conditions were not fulfilled, said Davud. Sadr was given a few hours to leave the Tomb. Sadr Representative Sheikh Awsal Hafeji indicated that they would show their support to Sadr by remaining in the Tomb. "We won't return the Key to the Tomb," Hafeji declared.
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 12:28:04 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Military force would be used against Sadr if these conditions were not fulfilled, said Davud. Sadr was given a few hours to leave the Tomb. Sadr Representative Sheikh Awsal Hafeji indicated that they would show their support to Sadr by remaining in the Tomb. "We won't return the Key to the Tomb," Hafeji declared.

What's the problem here? Kill them. Simple as that.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 13:00 Comments || Top||

#2 
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 13:13 Comments || Top||

#3  Dude, they're in a tomb! They've been fighting in a graveyard! How much more accomodating do you need them to be? Kill them already!
Posted by: BH || 08/19/2004 13:18 Comments || Top||

#4  Rest assured that the US Marines, Army, and the Iraqi Army and their Battallion of Special Forces Commando Kurds intend that this situation will indeed now be resolved in hours, and that any further delays will be due to MILITARY, not diplomatic necessity.
(I would like to add a personal note to an imbecile I heard today who says "we oughta drop a NEUTRON bomb on 'em." That statement being that you, anonymous sir, not appearing in this forum, are an idiot. I just HAD to say that to somebody.)
Posted by: Anonymoose || 08/19/2004 13:34 Comments || Top||

#5  Thoose Kurds give us a way to not "offend" {yeech-PC} anyone. Let them go in, settle a score or two, and mount the "late" Sadr's head on the nearest lamp post.
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 13:42 Comments || Top||

#6  Final Push!? I'll believe it when I see it. A "Final Push" means 'raising the Red Star over the Reichstag' type action...unconditional surrender by the perps and no face-saving devices extended...
Posted by: borgboy2001 || 08/19/2004 14:54 Comments || Top||

#7  "Sheikh Awsal Hafeji indicated that they would show their support to Sadr by remaining in the Tomb. "We won't return the Key to the Tomb," Hafeji declared."

Ok with me.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 08/19/2004 15:17 Comments || Top||

#8  My money's on the Iraqi military getting smoked as soon as they try it. Then the Americans have to go in and clean up, and it ain't gonna be pretty.

Oh, and I bet the damage doesn't get repaired due to inefficiency.
Posted by: gromky || 08/19/2004 15:23 Comments || Top||

#9  Anonymoose,
Well said. Our earlier correspondant obviously knows nothing about "neutron bombs" and how they work. The short skinny; if you set it off far enough away to keep the blast from destroying the building, the vermin inside will survive behind thick masonry walls while everyone in the open for miles around dies an ugly death from radiation poisoning.
If you set it off close enough to fry the tater-tots, the building will be reduced to rubble, with everyone else still succumbing to mega-rads.

This suggestion is, in fact, a brilliant new benchmark in the world of hyper-ignorance, one that even the brainless shills of the fifth column media will have difficulty matching.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 08/19/2004 15:23 Comments || Top||

#10  gromky, the Kurdish special ops guys have been brought in. Let's see if they get smoked or not.

Posted by: too true || 08/19/2004 15:44 Comments || Top||

#11  Sadr looks at his perimeter and concludes that he has the rest of the world surrounded. Personally, I can't see any reason not to fill those walls with tear gas before opening the shooting gallery. What's the chance that they've got anything more than handkerchiefs and squinting for coping with it?
Posted by: Tom || 08/19/2004 15:58 Comments || Top||

#12  I'd take that bet gromky....the Iraqi forces taking up positions are the ones who stood and fought. They're ready to prove themselves and they've got our airsupport. Tater Tots are mostly a mix of fodder and thugs. Either way....it should make for some fine viewing. I'm gettin' the popcorn ready!
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 08/19/2004 16:00 Comments || Top||

#13  "Revenge of the Kurds" AND the Olympics. I'll order Pizza.
Posted by: Sgt. D.T. || 08/19/2004 16:23 Comments || Top||

#14  With all the last minute acceptances of terms followed by failures to act, I am nostalgic for the pre-War machinations of Sadaam. Where is Hans Blix? Where are the French ambassadors?
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/19/2004 16:57 Comments || Top||

#15  hes fucked! watching this now on BBC at 10'oclock hes doomed,just gettinbg battered by AC-130's overhead, whole area around shrine getting blitzed,excellent. :)
Posted by: Shep UK || 08/19/2004 16:59 Comments || Top||

#16  kofi's crying...
Posted by: Shep UK || 08/19/2004 17:00 Comments || Top||

#17  Sadr's only operational brainfart is to use the media to push his agenda. Without the usual media 'hoes around he cannot push it effectively. So how successfully he as able to manoevure will depend upon Allawi and how he overall runs the strategic show. Fingers are crossed.

Including someone like Tater in the political process after his repeated insurrection actions is like putting poison in your own soup. Tater cannot be rehabilitated. His switchboard is forever wired wrong.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 08/19/2004 18:40 Comments || Top||

#18 
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 18:55 Comments || Top||

#19  If you, um, like miniguns, well, how would you like to own one?

Lol! You can... a BB Minigun. View the video at the bottom you'll see it's a serious toy...
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 20:09 Comments || Top||

#20  MiniGun? He's dead, Reaganite killed him.
Posted by: Col. Fl;agg || 08/19/2004 20:19 Comments || Top||

#21  Gromky:

The Iraqi forces that woudl go in are ones that have been on 7 other opposed raids of Mosqes that were used for stockpiling weapons. Their body count is over 100 dead, 50 prisoners, and not even one of their own wounded.

These guys are veteran Peshmerga, or long time Special Forces in the Iraq Army, and a few repatriated Iraqis from other places in the region. ANd the SAS, SBS, Navy Seals, and US Army Special Forces have been training these guys for months.

(And there is a rumor that the Sayeret Matkal has trained them as well - look them up on the internet if you dont know who they are)
Posted by: OldSpook || 08/19/2004 22:10 Comments || Top||


50 DIE IN US RAID
The US military killed more than 50 militia loyal to Moqtada Al Sadr in a significant advance early this morning into a Baghdad suburb that is one of his powerbases. The radical Iraqi cleric leading a Shi'ite uprising earlier agreed to disarm his militia and leave one of the country's holiest Islamic shrines after the interim government threatened to storm the Imam Ali Mosque to teach his Mehdi Army militia "a lesson they will never forget". Tensions, however, remained high after dark in the holy city where fighting has raged for two weeks and killed hundreds.
"Killed 50 people"... "Tensions remain high"... I'd say those two statements go together.
Sadr, who only a few days ago had vowed to fight to the death, said his forces would disarm and leave only after Marines encircling the city had agreed to a truce. An armed group 'Martyrs Squad', meanwhile, threatened to kill a kidnapped American journalist Micah Garen unless US forces withdraw from Najaf within 48 hours, Al Jazeera TV reported last night. Explosions and gun fire still echoed around the mosque hours after the announcement that Sadr had agreed to end a rebellion that has posed the biggest challenge to Prime Minister Iyad Allawi since he took over from US-led occupiers on June 28.
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 12:19:07 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  A good start. More, plz.
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 12:31 Comments || Top||

#2  72 x 50 = 3600 virgins required.
How many peeled grapes to feed 50 newcomers?
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 12:31 Comments || Top||

#3  It will be very interesting to learn about the way the mosque will be taken. Gas the perps? Or blow shit out of it. But I hope it's not GI's fighting a sensitive door to door fight to protect a piece of fake holy property so muslims can declare how the infidel trembles at the feet of islamic rage.
Posted by: Lucky || 08/19/2004 12:37 Comments || Top||

#4  When this asswipe's own life starts to be threatened, watch him squirm out of it and make "peace."
Posted by: PlanetDan || 08/19/2004 13:14 Comments || Top||

#5  If it were me I would tear/sleep gas the bunch, drag them out into the streets, and then quickly dispatch each with a bullet to the noggin. Cruel but necessary.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 08/19/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||

#6  I wonder, if we kill all the tater tots, and mash the grand tater and then withdraw, all within 48 hours will they let Micah Garen go? What if we withdraw from Najaf and then nuke it, will that meet their demands?
Posted by: AllahHateMe || 08/19/2004 13:48 Comments || Top||

#7  PSA: I hope this isn't considered crass and commercial, but I'd like to offer a service to the fallen Tater Tots...



If there really are a couple thousand in Najaf, a few thou more in Tater City, and mebbe another thou in Kut, Basrah, etc. I could really clean up when I clean up, heh.
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 13:54 Comments || Top||

#8  Wonder if the US Forces have anything like the siege gas used by the Russians a couple of years ago to free a theater full of hostages. I don't think the Moscow ever admitted what the gas was, but some reports were that it was morphine based or Fentanyl. The most effective antidote was Narcan,IIRC .
Posted by: GK || 08/19/2004 15:04 Comments || Top||

#9  Delta could take down the holy arsenal with no trouble, but Dubya and others are afraid that this would allow the fifth column media to incite a global uprising by death cultist hypocrites.

Even the Indian government, which has lost 10 times as many people to Islamofascist terrorism, rolls over for similar reasons.

So, American infidels cannot enter the mosque. But what if the Americans who enter the mosque are not infidels? There has been more than enough time to form a special all-Muslim forced entry team for situations like this. I have no idea whether this has been done, but it could have been.

There has not been enough time to train an Iraqi force to the required standard, even ignoring the other difficulties, but it is conceivable that highly trained Muslim special forces could be brought in from a third country for this operation.
Such an operation would require some fancy negotiation, and extreme secrecy, but it is not impossible.
Where they might come from is open to question as well, but it might be better at this point not to speculate in public.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 08/19/2004 15:04 Comments || Top||

#10  The above is just speculation.
I want to emphasize that Reuters, BBC, the LA Times and the rest of the Streicherist hypocrites and terrorist sycophants in the media will claim victory for their clients in any case, so any concession to their propaganda is a waste of time and an abject surrender.
I would lob some of Saddam's "non-existent" or "irrelevant" sarin shells into the place and claim total innocence. (A pinch of mustard will do if the sarin supply is limited)

The holy bunker and sniper's nest remains intact, but the tater tots perish from weapons whose existence is denied by their own propagandists and fellow-travellers.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 08/19/2004 15:12 Comments || Top||

#11  I believe the Commandant of the Corps is allowed to convert and bless whole battalions as necessary to insure efficient combat operations.
Posted by: Shipman || 08/19/2004 16:25 Comments || Top||

#12  I wouldn't use gas. It would rile the international WMD crowd and the Iranians would claim desecration of the holy site. Low Frequency attask them until they beg for mercy.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/19/2004 17:05 Comments || Top||

#13  Good plan, Shipman.
In fact, my spies in the Holy City of Parris Island tell me that the newly appointed Grand Ayatollah, Iman Michael W. "Mustafa" Hagee, is, at this very moment, welcoming a whole brigade of new converts to the Ummah.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 08/19/2004 17:14 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Chief of pro-Pakistan rebel group among four killed in Kashmir
Indian security forces shot dead the head of a pro-Pakistan Muslim rebel group while suspected separatists killed three people as new violence flared in Kashmir, officials said on Thursday. The rebel chief, Manzoor-ul-Islam, also known as Darjee, was one of the "most wanted militants" in the region, India's Border Security Force said. Darjee, who headed the pro-Pakistan Jamiat-ul-Mujahedin rebel group active in Kashmir since 1990, died in a clash late Wednesday with troops and police on the outskirts of Srinagar. An assault rifle and grenades were found in the rebel chief's car, the statement said. A second militant managed to flee, the security force said.

Also overnight Wednesday, police said suspected rebels shot dead three Muslims, including a candidate, Ali Mohammed Dar, who unsucessfully contested Kashmir's 2002 state polls as an independent. Dar was abducted from his house in southern Pulwama district and was killed, a police spokesman said, blaming rebels for his death. The other dead were a former militant killed in Pulwama and a civilian in neighbouring Doda district.
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 11:43:18 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Pakistan Police Capture Another Al- Qaeda Suspect
Pakistani police Thursday arrested an Algerian Al-Qaeda suspect after a shootout with two men on the outskirts of this northwestern provincial capital, intelligence officials said. Two men riding in a car fired at police when they were signalled to stop in Hayatabad, an upscale posh residential neighbourhood on the city outskirts.
"Halt!"
"Take that, copper! BANG!"
"In the ensuing exchange of fire one of the two men was injured and captured while the other managed to run away.
"Curley toed slippers, don't fail me now!"
The arrested man is an Arab and apparently linked to Al-Qaeda," an intelligence official told AFP, speaking on condition of anonymity. A senior security official later identified the captured man as an Algerian named Abu Fouzi.
"Long way from home, ain't ya Abu? That wound sure looks painful, let me put something on it. Say hello to Mister Truncheon."
Police recovered a few hand grenades, some documents and an assault rifle from the car, the official added.
Like pretty much every car in Peshawar.
What, no passports?
Additional: The Algerian, identified as Mohammad Fauzi, was wounded in the neck when police opened fire at him after he threw a hand grenade at them while trying to escape along with another foreign militant in a vehicle, an intelligence official said. The suspected militants took shelter in a religious school where Fauzi was arrested, he said on condition of anonymity. The second suspect, believed to be an Iraqi, fled but was caught later, he added. His identity was not immediately known. The intelligence official said Fauzi's condition was stable.
Pakistani security agencies have been making arrests almost daily since they stepped up their crackdown on Al-Qaeda fugitives, blamed for a wave of terrorist attacks on Pakistani leaders since December.
Posted by: Steve || 08/19/2004 11:10:58 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Feelin' Lucky Are Ya' Tater? --Punk.
He won't be tater much longer. He'll be a flat old chip!!!
...An official in the cleric's office, Haidar al-Tourfi, said he received a text message from al-Sadr saying: "Either martyrdom or victory."
Go for martyrdom. That, and $150 will get you a headstone...
On Wednesday, al-Sadr sent a letter to the Iraqi National Conference saying he agreed to their peace demands and that his fighters would lay down their arms and leave the shrine. Al-Sadr is known for flip-flopping on various peace deals with the fledgling Iraqi government.
... which he immediately did...
By Thursday, Iraqi officials were getting fed up with the firebrand cleric and his antics and vowed that an attack could be imminent within hours. Iraqi Minister of State Qassim Dawoud said that to prevent such an attack, al-Sadr must immediately disarm his Mahdi Army militia and hand over its weapons to the authorities. He also must sign a statement saying he will refrain from future violence and release all civilians and Iraqi security forces his militants have kidnapped. In addition, al-Sadr must hold a news conference to announce he is disbanding the Mahdi Army. "The military action has become imminent," Dawoud told reporters. "If these conditions are not met, then the military solution will prevail."
At which point more cannon fodder will be burned, while Tater hides in the holiest mosque he can find and threatens to destroy it...
After hearing Dawoud's threat, Sheik Abdul Hadi al-Daraji, a spokesman for al-Sadr in Baghdad, called for talks to quickly "stop the bloodbaths in the holy city of Najaf."
Oh, no! Not a bloodbath!
"What we want is for the parties to sit down and cooperate. To ask a side, or the Sadrist movement, to disarm, I think is not logical and not right.
To ask the government to disarm is pretty stoopid...
"They should rather sit around a negotiating table and determine what's right and wrong," he told Al-Arabiya television. The statement was made before al-Sheibani said al-Sadr rejected the Iraqi conditions...
Posted by: Ol_Dirty_American || 08/19/2004 9:11:43 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Something significant seems to be happening now...
Posted by: Lux || 08/19/2004 9:25 Comments || Top||

#2  Yes it does. I have see 3 different figures of 1000, 2000, and now 3000 fighters at the Imam Ali Mosque. I am wondering if it's much less than the 1000 figure. Most of the camera angles I have seen have been ones than are trying to make the crowd bigger than it is.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 08/19/2004 9:33 Comments || Top||

#3  Meanwhile in Najaf, a mortar barrage slammed into a police station Thursday, killing at least seven policemen and wounding 31 others.

Pretty stupid. I guess that's where the term "getting fire up" came from.
Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 9:39 Comments || Top||

#4  Again, Im not sure those details will be worked out - I think theres a very high chance it will all fall apart and Iraqi govt forces will enter the shrine, if not Saturday than early next week.


That was me, yesterday. Looks like I got the date wrong.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 9:42 Comments || Top||

#5  Must be crowded in that mosque. With all those "well" trained troops, somebody's gonna have a work accident.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 08/19/2004 9:44 Comments || Top||

#6  Today, not likely. As I said yesterday, look for the Iraqis to start their offensive Sunday or Monday to take full advantage of the news cycle. The propaganda victory for all coalition parties is to great to let this golden wrapped opportunity pass. Look for one last trick from Mahdi Army similar to what the Chechens wanted to do with the Moscow Theatre.
Posted by: TomAnon || 08/19/2004 9:52 Comments || Top||

#7  AFP, talking with the Oregon National Guard in old city, Najaf

Are the locals friendly? "It seems," says SFC Compton, who has joined his colleagues in an abandoned house where they are resting up and where they stock provisions. "They seem nice but really I don't know," he adds cautiously.


But he is wrong. The few residents who have stayed apparently want just one thing: to see the Americans finish off Sadr's militia as quickly as possible.


"The Americans are good with us," says 27-year-old Hassan Mohammad Ibrahim, who has been left alone in his home. "The militia, when they occupied the street, made us suffer. I want them out of here alive or dead."

"They ruined us," said Karim Hussein, a 38-year-old mason, who has dropped by his home to pick up a few possessions before leaving again. "It's time they were done with. Let the Americans attack and have done with them once and for all."
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 10:38 Comments || Top||

#8  Most of the camera angles I have seen have been ones than are trying to make the crowd bigger than it is.

FlameBait-Is there any sign of an Iraqi or American Tank taking a shot "accidental-on-purpose" take out the Al-Jazzera camera position. Can't have an "Advantageous to Sadr" camera angle if by getting there you open your self up to a visit to the 72 dark-eyed virgins.
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 11:13 Comments || Top||

#9  It's a Lie! Tater never touched me. He's a creepy dude for sure with funky teeth but as soon as he started coming on to me I split man.

You should see his pad, shit piled everywhere!
Posted by: Lucky || 08/19/2004 11:27 Comments || Top||

#10  Time for Tater to set up his spud cannon!! pH3Ar1!!1!
Posted by: Atropanthe || 08/19/2004 12:15 Comments || Top||

#11  Let's get on with it, already! Too much talkin' up the place like it was the "Red October" Tractor Factory circa October '42...
_____________________________exasperated borg
Posted by: borgboy2001 || 08/19/2004 14:59 Comments || Top||

#12  Tater had to call time out 'cause he was late for his appointment at the orthodontist, about 25 years late
Posted by: cheaderhead || 08/19/2004 18:35 Comments || Top||

#13  Mr. Tater has not worn his bands properly and will face the ultimate in Zionist Orthodonture punishment.... I will call upon his mother.
Posted by: Dr Irving Fleet speaking from the hereafter || 08/19/2004 20:23 Comments || Top||


Iraq warns al-Sadr to surrender, or else
Can we go for "Surrender or Die"?
EFL:
An Iraqi Cabinet minister issued an ultimatum to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr Thursday, warning that Iraqi forces were poised to launch an offensive if he did not immediately disarm his militia and hand over its weapons. The threat by Minister of State Qassim Dawoud came a day after the firebrand cleric agreed to a peace deal to end two weeks of fighting between U.S. and Iraqi troops and al-Sadr's al-Mahdi militia forces, who are holed up in the revered Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf. The cleric also must sign a statement saying he will refrain from future violence and release all civilians and Iraqi security forces his militants have kidnapped. In addition, al-Sadr must hold a news conference to announce he is disbanding the Mahdi Army, Dawoud said. "The military action has become imminent," Dawoud told reporters. "If these conditions are not met, then the military solution will prevail."

After hearing Dawoud's threat, Sheik Abdul Hadi al-Daraji, a spokesman for al-Sadr in Baghdad, called for talks to quickly "stop the bloodbaths in the holy city of Najaf." "What we want is for the parties to sit down and cooperate. To ask a side, or the Sadrist movement, to disarm, I think is not logical and not right. They should rather sit around a negotiating table and determine what's right and wrong," he told Al-Arabiya television.
Too late.

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Steve || 08/19/2004 9:02:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  ..To ask a side, or the Sadrist movement, to disarm, I think is not logical and not right. They should rather sit around a negotiating table and determine what's right and wrong," he told Al-Arabiya television.

Same old shit. Time for the military solution, as a reasonable solution is simply not going to be achievable.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 11:39 Comments || Top||

#2  When you show mercy to the cruel you only end up inflicting cruelty upon the merciful.
Posted by: mhw || 08/19/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||


Tater to burn down the house
From Debka:
Heavy fighting in Najef Thursday around Imam Ali Mosque. Awalli government accuses besieged Shiite cleric Sadr of cheating when he offered to accept ceasefire terms and leave mosque with his militia. Instead, all 2,000 militiamen are barricaded inside and shooting from there at US-Iraqi siege force. DEBKAfile notes Sadr never put his name to the offer reaching the National Council in Baghdad Wednesday.
TomAnon:
Stay tuned boys and girls. When Tater is routed out of the mosque I bet he brings it down with him. Any takers?
Posted by: TomAnon || 08/19/2004 8:27:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Fierce fighting was reported around Najaf’s holy shrine today after a rebel cleric’s aide rejected a government ultimatum for Muqtada al-Sadr’s militia to disarm or risk a massive offensive.
Sheik Aws al-Khafaji, the head of al-Sadr’s office in the southern city of Nasiriyah, said the ultimatum proved the government “wants only war.” Al-Khafaji appeared to be speaking on his own behalf and not in al-Sadr’s name. Other aides holed up with the cleric in the holy city of Najaf appealed to the government to negotiate and end to the violence there.
Al-Khafaji also said that al-Sadr did not have the authority to disband his Mahdi Army militia or to force his followers to give up their arms.


"That word has to come from Mahdi Army HQ, in Tehran."
Posted by: Steve || 08/19/2004 9:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Ready to join Saddam, Sadr?
Posted by: Steve from Relto || 08/19/2004 10:12 Comments || Top||

#3  Al-Khafaji also said that al-Sadr did not have the authority to disband his Mahdi Army militia or to force his followers to give up their arms.

Not a problem. If a bullet to the head of each and every member is required to put an end to this group's reign of terror, then by all means, get a move on. There's work to be done, and the sooner it's started, the sooner it'll be finished.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 11:44 Comments || Top||

#4  Relto Steve - Probably to join Saddam's demon seeds in "VIRGIN COUNTRY" is more likely. . .
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 12:03 Comments || Top||

#5  Tear Gas?
Posted by: 3dc || 08/19/2004 12:18 Comments || Top||

#6  We need to borrow some of that Russian sleepy gas they used on the theater. I'm surprised we haven't used something similar yet...
Posted by: Fred || 08/19/2004 12:25 Comments || Top||

#7  AFAICR, our forces couldn't use tear gas -- or any other gas -- because it could be taken as a war crime.

Iraqi forces could, however, since those agents are perfectly OK for law-enforcement use.

(No, it doesn't make sense to me, either. I just remember reading that the rules are different.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 12:27 Comments || Top||

#8  Just like hollow point bullets are legal for police but banned under the Geneva Convention for military. However, CS gas has been used regularly by militaries for tunnel clearing : urban zone clearing if a "riot situation" is formally declared by the civilan authorites should provide sufficient legal cover for military forces to use CS. I would personally prefer the use of phosgene in this case.
Posted by: Anonymous6115 || 08/19/2004 12:36 Comments || Top||

#9  We need to borrow some of that Russian sleepy gas they used on the theater. I'm surprised we haven't used something similar yet...

I'm with you 100%, Fred. Screw the negative publicity and get the job done. We have damaged ourselves much more with all this dithering.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 18:47 Comments || Top||

#10  Sleepy gas? Let's just drop 12 professors of Flemish economic history on 'em.
Posted by: Dr Irving Fleet speaking from the hereafter || 08/19/2004 20:26 Comments || Top||


US Troops Storm Tater City
US forces have begun storming the al Sadr suburb of Baghdad, reports say. The area has been tense between American forces and supporters of the Shi'ite radical cleric Moqtada al Sadr. America used dozens of tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles to over run the cleric's stronghold. Members of the Mehdi army seemed to melt away, Reuters news agency said. The US troops called on the militiamen to hand over their arms.

The move follows a similar threat to attack the Mehdi army in the southern city of Najaf where al Sadr has been holed up in a two week stand-off. He is reported to have struck a deal with the interim government to end the uprising, just hours after the defence minister threatened a "decisive battle" to remove the cleric from the holy city.

Confusion surrounded exactly what al Sadr had agreed to. The government was demanding he and his army lay down their arms and withdraw from the holy shrine where they are holed up. The government was also calling for him to enter the political process. But it later appeared al Sadr was calling for the American troops to withdraw from Najaf before he complied - something that is unlikely to happen.
Posted by: Howard UK || 08/19/2004 4:31:50 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Members of the Mehdi army seemed to melt away,

"run awayyyyy"
Posted by: Frank G || 08/19/2004 8:04 Comments || Top||

#2  "The streets of Sadr City were strewn with chicken feathers today as memebrs of the Mahidi Army retreated. Our correspondent on the scene, Gabriel Pullet, has more . . ."
Posted by: Mike || 08/19/2004 8:26 Comments || Top||

#3  Fox sez the US is getting it on in Najaf. Bout time
Posted by: Frank G || 08/19/2004 8:44 Comments || Top||

#4  Classic.

Hey look here - look at Najaf. Yes we are all over Najaf. Yes we are stoppgin to talk at Najaf. Najaf Najaf Najaf.

then: Baghdad BAM!

They turn their attenion there, then it will be Najaf - BAM!

Classic misdirection. Bravo to the commanding General there!
Posted by: OldSpook || 08/19/2004 9:43 Comments || Top||

#5  Question for Murat or other Muslims. Isn't Sadr claiming to be the Mahdi (thus the Mehdi army)? Isn't that presumptious and offensive to Muslims who don't believe he is the Mahdi? Is the silence on this issue from Muslims an endorsement of his Mahdi-hood, or is it simply Muslims refusing to say bad things about other Muslims?
Posted by: yank || 08/19/2004 10:01 Comments || Top||

#6  I'll repost the Maps link here, too.
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 10:08 Comments || Top||

#7  Yank, it means they either dont care about what is going on in Iraq, or dont want to be seens as meddling in Iraq, or dont want to attack someone who is attacking the Americans.

Look, Jews dont believe that Jesus was the Messiah. On most days im silent on the issue. This says nothing about theology, but mainly about my sense that publicly attacking the beliefs of my fellow Americans is not good or wise (or neighborly) thing to do.

And yes, I know, Jesus isnt holed up with 1000 armed thugs somewhere. So its not comparable. But that just emphasizes that Sadr is, and is seen, as a political figure more than as a messiah, except among his own followers.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 10:10 Comments || Top||

#8  Yank - you're getting Sadr confused with bin Laden, who recently seems to make some pretense of being a Sunni-style Mahdi. Not quite sure how that works, theologically. Muqtada al Sadr is a Sayeed - that is, he's a descendant of the Prophet. As far as I can tell, there's no debate about that - the Sadrs used to be heap-big Shia clerics - as senior as you can get. Of course, there's more than a few sayeed running around the world, as I understand the situation.

But Sadr has an actual Ayatollah back home in Qom who's his source of actual legitimacy. Sadr isn't trained enough to be trusted to tie his own shoes, theologically speaking.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 08/19/2004 11:20 Comments || Top||

#9  The government was also calling for him to enter the political process.

Terribly terribly stupid. This Sadr jerk has already shown that he's more than willing to resort to armed force to get what he wants, which is not compatible with the political process. Barring some miraculous last minute change of heart, this is not worth expending excess amounts of effort on, and the course of action that will cause the least amount of pain for Iraq would be to dispatch Sadr and his followers quickly. Anything less will simply allow the pain of the current situation to just needlessly continue.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 11:25 Comments || Top||

#10  And yes, I know, Jesus isnt holed up with 1000 armed thugs somewhere

Shit. And I'd been waiting for the phone call for a while.

The Jesus would kick some ass with an HK G36C.
Posted by: Anonymous4021 || 08/19/2004 11:58 Comments || Top||

#11  No Mitch H, the Mehdi army is called the Mahdi army because Sadr wants association with the Mahdi. I'm not sure if he claimed he was himself but the army is Sadrs and the connection is pretty blatant.

LIberalhawk, I get your point but the Jews at the time of Jesus made the point pretty clear that they didn't agree he was the Christ and didn't want him screwing around. If you don't believe its sort of heresy to go around proclaiming your god-hood or whatever. Sadr's coming pretty close to that and nobody is saying anything about it.
Posted by: yank || 08/19/2004 12:27 Comments || Top||

#12  It's just that mosque thats got everybody all in a bind. Tater and his thugs matter nothing. They know that as long as they hold tight to the property they have a chance to succeed.

Iran is prolly frothing at the thought of having such a holy place.

Islamic holy places, for god sake. Ol muhammed was a tricky guy to set that whole fake BS in motion. Something has got to happen regarding such.
Posted by: Lucky || 08/19/2004 12:28 Comments || Top||

#13  The Jesus would kick some ass with an HK G36C.

Wouldn't last long against Gandhi with a .50 cal.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 12:29 Comments || Top||

#14  Sorry to rain on your parade guys, but Jesus would soooooo not need a gun to settle things over there. He could just go totally Ten Commandments on their *bleep* That would be worth the popcorn.

The muslims believe that the messiah would be a fighter with a weapon. What a pussy.


Posted by: peggy || 08/19/2004 12:50 Comments || Top||

#15  #13
You're assuming that Gandhi has the strength and muscles to load, prime and fire the M2.

:D
Posted by: Anonymous4021 || 08/19/2004 12:50 Comments || Top||

#16  Sorry to rain on your parade guys, but Jesus would soooooo not need a gun to settle things over there.

Santa nearly whipped his ass.

You're assuming that Gandhi has the strength and muscles to load, prime and fire the M2. :D

I've seen it. And, really, if you can't believe Weird Al, who can you believe?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 12:59 Comments || Top||

#17  Robert Crawford (and Weird Al) is an agent for the Bush Attack Machine!!

:(
Posted by: Anonymous4021 || 08/19/2004 13:40 Comments || Top||


Terrorists Threaten to Kill American Journalist
Posted by: Destro || 08/19/2004 06:40 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Talk about conflicted emotions!
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 9:07 Comments || Top||

#2  He is a French-American if it will conflict you even more :D
Posted by: Trolling for Allan || 08/19/2004 9:09 Comments || Top||

#3  Depends on how French vs how American.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 9:23 Comments || Top||

#4  The guy was out there filming a documentary about Iraq's archaeological sites. In a war zone. What are the odds that he figured he'd be safe, since he was on the terrorists' side? In the old days, I'd have said - no matter what happens, this guy is an American; he deserves our help. In these post-Michael Moore days, my feeling is that the guy stepped into it all by his lonesome despite warnings from the State Department that only essential personnel should be in Iraq - it's not the military's job to get his butt out of the fire.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 08/19/2004 9:40 Comments || Top||

#5  RC,

Definition of mixed emotions:

Watching your mother-in-law drive off in a cliff in your brand-new Mercedes.

This definitely falls into that category.
Posted by: Dreadnought || 08/19/2004 10:38 Comments || Top||

#6  Generally speaking, this means that the only place you'll be able to find a journalist will be either their hotel room or the hotel bar. Definitely Green Zone, if in Baghdad.

Oh, sorry, that was where you had to go to find them before the threat. How, um, uh...
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 13:05 Comments || Top||


US pushes into Baghdad Shia area (Sadr city)
Posted by: Lux || 08/19/2004 05:17 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  One of Mr Sadr's spokesmen, Sheikh Hassan al-Zerkani, told the BBC that the cleric's offer was genuine, but guarantees needed to come from the occupiers, not the occupied

I'm getting the impression that the Iraqi's don't have as much patience for these types of free-pass, buzz-words as we do. If I was the Tater, I'd be reeeally concerned that I was about to experience some Iraqi one-on-one.
Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 5:43 Comments || Top||

#2  Wa happen guys? I thought you brave Americanos argued once you saved the Shia population from those bad Baathist Sunni's, why are you fighting those repressed poor souls, finishing Saddams work?
Posted by: Murat || 08/19/2004 7:43 Comments || Top||

#3  Fuck off and die, Murat.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 08/19/2004 7:55 Comments || Top||

#4  No, pigf*cker, because of that buck-toothed fat pudding in Najaf, hiding behind women and kids - peace doesn't stem from the kalashnikkov but the ballot box. Something the Wahabbis of Fallujah are due to find out.
Posted by: Howard UK || 08/19/2004 7:56 Comments || Top||

#5  Hey Howard DUcK go wash your mouth. So now they are Wahabbis, are you sure its not the Taliban? I understand your confusion all bearded tulband wearing Islamo terrorists right? Question: whom are you going to liberate anyway (except the oil that is)?
Posted by: Murat || 08/19/2004 8:07 Comments || Top||

#6  Iranian tools is all they are, RAT. Blow a kurd for autonomy today? Tulband? We RB'ers used to have intelligent trolls, wha' happened? We're beset by unintelligible anti-US garbage and moon-eyed islamo-apologists....
Posted by: Frank G || 08/19/2004 8:14 Comments || Top||

#7  Pigf*cker - Judging by the large ex-pat Iraqi community in London, there are quite a few people who can now return to rebuild their lives - and the ones I have encountered - academics - are very thankful. Wahabbis in Fallujah? That's what the reports have been saying - no music/alcohol/fun etc. Not surprised if there are Saudis in there - one imagines they'd be quite nervous about having a functioning democracy on their border.
Posted by: Howard UK || 08/19/2004 8:17 Comments || Top||

#8  Confusion? You mean like when a smelly, stupid second-rater blames the Kurds for what was al-Qaeda's doing in Turkey?
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 8:35 Comments || Top||

#9  BMN -- don't forget that when he was called on it, he started claiming that people who pointed out his idiocy were, themselves, Kurds.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 9:11 Comments || Top||

#10  Sadr could use some quality U.K. dentistry.
Posted by: Trolling for Allan || 08/19/2004 9:18 Comments || Top||

#11  Murat: I thought you brave Americanos argued once you saved the Shia population from those bad Baathist Sunni's, why are you fighting those repressed poor souls, finishing Saddams work?

Murat is confused, since these are the Shiites quislings who helped Saddam do his dirty work, slaughtering other Shiites for money from Saddam. Besides, who cares - as long as Muslim jihadis are being sent to paradise - we don't really discriminate between Sunnis or Shiites - or Arabs and Turks.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 08/19/2004 9:43 Comments || Top||

#12  Or Persians even.
Posted by: FlameBait93268 || 08/19/2004 9:46 Comments || Top||

#13  MuRAT you simpleton...

This is a desperate attempt by Iranian backed forces to disrupt the Iraqis from setting up a unified democratic government.

They goaded Sadr into betraying the main line SHia's and occupying the Shrine his father used to run. For Sadr, its all about control of the money generated by the shrine of Imam Ali.

So the central government needs to show that it will not tolerate private militias - and they (with our help) take down the Sadr gang. Serves as an object lesson to others.

Sort of like how the Turkish government deals with Kurdish seperatists. You ought to know that one by now you disingenuous little bastard son of a sow.
Posted by: OldSpook || 08/19/2004 9:47 Comments || Top||

#14  Murat, If memory serves you were civil on this board for the past few weeks. Why the sudden anger and baiting?
Posted by: yank || 08/19/2004 9:58 Comments || Top||

#15  Here are the Maps you need to get your bearings. From GlobalSecurity, of course...
Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 10:05 Comments || Top||

#16  I thought you brave Americanos argued once you saved the Shia population from those bad Baathist Sunni's...

We did save the Shia population, as we saved all the populations in Iraq. If your religion taught you the value of gratitude owed when someone else sacrifices blood and sweat for your benefit ("your" in this case meaning the region of the Middle East), you would understand that.

Why are you fighting those repressed poor souls, finishing Saddams work?

Your error is in your question. Which are repressed souls-the ones continuing a reign of terror against neighbors, brothers, and friends, or the ones we are helping to build schools, hospitals, etc for? You are confused.
Posted by: jules 187 || 08/19/2004 10:15 Comments || Top||

#17  I am still civil compared to most of the forumers here Yank, just be neutral for a momemt read the messages of the people directing it to me and tell me who is civil, be honnest.
Posted by: Murat || 08/19/2004 10:16 Comments || Top||

#18  pigfunker.
Posted by: Howard UK || 08/19/2004 10:18 Comments || Top||

#19  Jules
We did save the Shia population, as we saved all the populations in Iraq. If your religion taught you the value of gratitude owed when someone else sacrifices blood and sweat for your benefit ("your" in this case meaning the region of the Middle East), you would understand that.

Well saving people by bombarding them, occupying them, apointing rulers for them and stealing their oil is not really "saving", my understanding of it is different.
Posted by: Murat || 08/19/2004 10:20 Comments || Top||

#20  Murat, you catch shit because shit is all you put out. Your last message is a prime example.

Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 10:22 Comments || Top||

#21  If you would be so kind, Murat, substantiate your argument that we're stealing their oil.
Posted by: jules 187 || 08/19/2004 10:25 Comments || Top||

#22  Rather than us “stealing your oil”, what you should really be worried about, Murat, is that pencil sized fuel cell technology that was talked about yesterday. After that we won’t need to “steal” your oil anymore.
Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 10:25 Comments || Top||

#23  Murat: Well saving people by bombarding them, occupying them, apointing rulers for them and stealing their oil is not really "saving", my understanding of it is different.

Isn't that kind of simplistic? We're bombarding the bad guys, killing the bad guys for the Iraqi people, shepherding them through the democratic process and buying their oil. Now, compare that to what Mesopotamians endured under Turkish rule - centuries of stagnation punctuated by Turkish massacres of Arabs opposed to Turkish imperialism. Turks are just jealous that Iraq will become a much more advanced country than Turkey, and all it will have taken was an American invasion. Maybe that's the solution to Turkey's woes.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 08/19/2004 10:28 Comments || Top||

#24  Jesus, no, ZF!

Let the Turks give their native Islamists free reign for a while, first.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 10:30 Comments || Top||

#25  I thought you brave Americanos argued once you saved the Shia population from those bad Baathist Sunni's, why are you fighting those repressed poor souls, finishing Saddams work?

This might come as a surprise to you, but Sadr and his armed followers != "the Shia population". They may be part of it, but they don't speak for all the Iraqi Shiites any more than bin Laden speaks for all the Sunnis.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 11:50 Comments || Top||

#26  You mean to say that you can give it out but you can't take it, Murat? You come in here with your bullshit about the Kurds, claim Americans are stealing oil, kiss Michael Moore's ass, etc...and strangely enough when you're called on it, whine that people aren't civil here?

Tough shit. I can't help it that you're insignificant.
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 11:56 Comments || Top||

#27  'Wa happen guys? I thought you brave Americanos argued once you saved the Shia population from those bad Baathist Sunni's, why are you fighting those repressed poor souls, finishing Saddams work?"
Yes the reactions are over the top but your comments seem designed to provoke that sort of reaction.
Posted by: yank || 08/19/2004 14:25 Comments || Top||

#28  Knew 27 comments meant a troll.
Posted by: michael || 08/19/2004 15:04 Comments || Top||

#29  LOL Michael. I think there were two or three exceptions..... a Christmas thread? Lucky going berserk after the BCS game?
Posted by: Shipman || 08/19/2004 16:28 Comments || Top||

#30  A travesty I tell ya. A BCS travesty!
Posted by: Lucky || 08/20/2004 0:03 Comments || Top||


Greenside: account of asassination Lt Col Ftikan (8-17)
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/19/2004 02:47 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Thank you, Marines. Semper Fi!
Posted by: trailing wife || 08/19/2004 8:15 Comments || Top||

#2  While I love to poke fun daily at the absurdities of this war, Dave reminds me of a more sober reason that I and others visit this site: to keep the honor of American ideals alive and to lend a stream of support to those who are fighting this war. What courage our troops show, what steely willpower in the face of unimaginable barbarity. Lt. Col. Ftikan: rest in peace. Coalition: you ARE saving this world. THANK YOU.
Posted by: jules 187 || 08/19/2004 15:46 Comments || Top||


Flypaper revisited
It must be rather galling to the U.S. Marines, to be sent into the winding streets of Najaf, Iraq, at the risk of their lives, among bystanders of strange language and unknown sentiments, against the lethally-armed streetfighters of Moqtada al-Sadr's "Imam Mahdi Army", to do the Iraqi government's own dirty work. And then the same government sends a delegation to the al-Sadrites -- to the people you are trying to kill, and avoid being killed by -- to negotiate an end of the fighting, and their retreat to safety, as if the Iraqi government were a neutral party. Such missions are very hard to sell, politically, back home in the United States; and it is a grace that the Western media are not following the plot, or the unhappiness Stateside would be greater.

They couldn't follow it if they tried, for they are locked in their own cultural prison, unable to imagine the complexity of the situation on the ground in Iraq.

It was the same when members of the U.S. Senate expressed outrage on learning that Ahmad Chalabi, the erstwhile American ally, now abandoned to his fate, had had dealings with the ayatollahs in Tehran. So does everyone have; just as everyone except Mr. Chalabi had dealings with Saddam Hussein. Mr. Chalabi had an office in Tehran long before the Iraqi invasion.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: tipper || 08/19/2004 1:04:07 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Interesting admission, even if he added the usual, “But I still think Bush is stupid, therefore I am smart” disclaimer.
Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 10:29 Comments || Top||

#2  Interesting admission
a) Call me clueless, but what was Warren's "admission?"
b) Btw, I think Warren, inspite of beng a Canadian journalist, has generally been supportive of GWB since 9/11.
Posted by: rex || 08/19/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#3  It must be rather galling to the U.S. Marines, to be sent into the winding streets of Najaf, Iraq, at the risk of their lives, among bystanders of strange language and unknown sentiments, against the lethally-armed streetfighters of Moqtada al-Sadr’s "Imam Mahdi Army", to do the Iraqi government’s own dirty work

I dunno... why don't you ask a Marine?
Posted by: Anonymous4021 || 08/19/2004 11:32 Comments || Top||

#4  And what's with the "quagmire"???
Posted by: Anonymous4021 || 08/19/2004 11:35 Comments || Top||

#5  It's working, after a fashion. Iraq continues to soak the enemy up. But whereas I formerly thought the Bush administration had adopted this policy consciously, I now realize it was a happy accident. They have consciously "taken the battle to the enemy", but the quagmire -- the "flypaper" -- was hung by mistake.“

“President Bush's stated resolution is to alter conditions throughout the Middle East, to herald constitutional democracy. With the passage of months and years, this ambition becomes ever more ludicrous, not because the mission is absolutely impossible, but because the cost of achieving it would be vastly greater than the U.S. and allies could be willing to pay.”

“Mr. Bush is rhetorically trapped in his "vision", and yet it often happens that the right thing is done for the wrong reasons. “

Laura Bush, looks beautiful. She usually looks dumpy. Isn’t it lucky she stumbled upon a dress that makes her look prettier than she really is.
Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 11:35 Comments || Top||

#6  Sorry, #5, but I still don't see how Warren's observations about the unintended consequences about the Iraq War represent an "interesting admission" on Warren's part. If you mean to say that Warren is giving the WH a "back-handed compliment," I'd say you are right.

He says on the one hand that a democratic government in Iraq is unlikely because of the complexity of politics, culture, religion in the ME, and that the WH was naive to think otherwise. I'd agree with Warren on that count.

Then he says that one good thing that's come out of the Iraq War is that the US military is deflecting terrorist attacks from the US mainland and that this "fly paper" effect was not a pre-planned goal. I'd say he might be right. I think the WH thought that the Iraqis would embrace the military as liberators from the cruel Saddam Hussein and that Iraqis would pull together to get the country up and running even faster than what happened in Germany and Japan, because Germans and Japanese were not "liberated" per se, but rather were conquered.

As for the US military applying this unintended "fly paper" consequence in Iraq to other ME countries, I think Warren is talking like a wishful thinking journalist rather than a down to earth boots on the ground military strategists. The US does not have the military manpower to take on other ME countries, especially when culturally "sensitive" wars are the order of the day.

As for quagmire...who cares what word is used to describe the current unstable situation in Iraq? Whatever the word is, what's happening in Iraq now is not going to plan. Tommy Franks said we should not stay in Iraq longer than 5 years. I agree with him. And I don't think at the end of 5 years Iraq will look like what the neo-cons envisioned. I don't think it's our responsibility to make Iraq "perfect." I think we need to set our sights on some realistic goals and leave it at that. To have this airy fairy exit plan of leaving our GI's in Iraq "for as long as it takes" just to avoid the "Vietnam quagmire" label is being rather selfish to our brave GI's.
Posted by: rex || 08/19/2004 13:49 Comments || Top||

#7  I don’t disagree with much of what you say, but I think my original point stands, and I’m not really sure why you are taking issue with it.

Then he says that one good thing that's come out of the Iraq War is that the US military is deflecting terrorist attacks from the US mainland and that this "fly paper" effect was not a pre-planned goal

The goal was to make America safer by fighting the war in a pre-emptive (maybe you missed the shrill screeches from the left how this was only going to inflame and embolden the terrorists). The stated goal was to fight the battle overseas and to de-throne terrorist supporters in order to make us safer here at home. Author can’t bare to praise Bush for this, so he’s reduced to saying that it was all just dumb luck. As if the current results we all just an accident. As if any war goes exactly as planned.

The bottom line is that he’s admitting that the overall idea of taking them on over there, in a pre-emptive fashion has had positive results. We avoided terror attacks for the last 2 years here at home and the left seems to just be hoping we’ll have another attack before the election, so that they can say, “see…we told you so..it’s all Bush’s fault we were attacked”.

Bush Admin has been successful with the overall war aims they started with. No war goes exactly as planned. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have achieved their primary goals of defeating the terrorists’ havens abroad. The author is admitting this but is unable to give Bush any credit for it, applying the tired Bush is stupid meme. I’m not sure what it is you disagree with.

Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 14:19 Comments || Top||

#8  I’m not really sure why you are taking issue with it
Maybe you and I have a different understanding of the phrase "interesting admission." If Warren makes any "admission" it's that his orginal fly paper theory was more flattering to the WH than it is now. What he thought was done consciously, he now views as being a result of happenstance. Here's the link to Warren's original fly paper article that he wrote in 2003:
http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/Comment/Jul03/index150.shtml

Raphael is a Canadian poster and he'd know more about Warren's writing than I do, but what little I have read of Warren on other conservative and /or libertarian blogs leads me to view him as a GWB/pre-emptive action advocate, by and large.

So, in other words, Warren is showing that he is somewhat dis-illusioned with what he sees as a lurching back and forth of policy in Iraq and the naive "vision" of a democratic ME that is a limiting force in GWB's foreign policy in the ME.

In other words, Warren is telling GWB to pursue US "quagmire/occupation" in other ME countries and to forget about democracizing them, because Arabs don't care about democracy, but they will be attracted to/will fight US military presence in their region, and as long as they are doing that, they will have less interest or energy to attack the US mainland or Israel.

Warren knows the difference between pre-emptive action versus fly paper occupation. He's saying that maybe quagmire is not so bad if it acts as a fly paper for terrorists, but he says the US needs to move on to other countries because the US military has reached the end of the line for what the stateside politicians will allow it to do in Iraq.

The fly paper theory may work in the short term to deflect AQ attention from attacks on the US mainland, but there are embedded cells here so I don't think long term having our military fight battles far afield will have much protective effect for our country.

I've read that terrorist cells take about 5 years of planning to strike a target, so the 3 years attack-free existence we have enjoyed here is just about timed out. Also, the terrorist combatants[to steal a label from the NYT] fighting our GI's in Afghanistan and in Iraq are different from the terrorist cells who aim to cause financial/political havoc by hitting domestic civilian soft targets in the West.

I might be wrong but I don't think Warren thinks GWB is stupid or dumb. I think Warren views GWB as being naive about the ME culture and the religion of Islam. I think Warren fears that this naivity will cause GWB to make the wrong choices in Iraq. In fact Warren says he thinks it's the democracy vision that limits [imprisons] GWB and prevents him from seeing the situation realistically in Iraq and in the ME.
Posted by: rex || 08/19/2004 15:19 Comments || Top||

#9  It must be rather galling to the U.S. Marines, to be sent into the winding streets of Najaf, Iraq, at the risk of their lives, among bystanders of strange language and unknown sentiments, against the lethally-armed streetfighters of Moqtada al-Sadr’s "Imam Mahdi Army", to do the Iraqi government’s own dirty work.

There are plenty of Iraqi forces fighting as well, and steadily improving. AS for the fighting qualitis of the Sadrites, I leave that to others here to comment on.

And then the same government sends a delegation to the al-Sadrites -- to the people you are trying to kill, and avoid being killed by -- to negotiate an end of the fighting, and their retreat to safety, as if the Iraqi government were a neutral party.
No, not as a neutral party, but as an adversary in a complex game.

Such missions are very hard to sell, politically, back home in the United States; and it is a grace that the Western media are not following the plot, or the unhappiness Stateside would be greater.

I have more faith in the nuance of the American people than that.


You can merely get used to ideas of loyalty and moral consistency, that are truly non-Western, yet which pertain in Iraq and among its neighbours. Ideas have consequences, and the animating ideas of Islamdom and Christendom began moving apart 14 centuries ago.

evidently someone who doesnt know much about the European political life in the middle ages, the Italian renaissance, and the 18th century era of balance of power politics and alliance flipping. The notions of political loyalty he refers to are products of the age of nationalism, and dont predate the French and American revolutions.


President Bush’s stated resolution is to alter conditions throughout the Middle East, to herald constitutional democracy. With the passage of months and years, this ambition becomes ever more ludicrous, not because the mission is absolutely impossible, but because the cost of achieving it would be vastly greater than the U.S. and allies could be willing to pay. They would have to occupy the entire region the way Germany and Japan were once occupied, and dictate norms and forms.

While Warren may not agree, the neocon strategy (or one version of it) is to occupy and dictate in Iraq alone, and then let the virus of democracy propogate on its own. Iran looks particularly vulnerable, and even if thats ALL we get, the strat will be a success. Meanwhile we see more or less free national elections in Algeria, a plan for municipal elections in KSA, liberalization in Bahrain, the releasing of a few political prisoners in Egypt and Uzbekistan, and ferment among Kurds in Syria. All that before things have settled down in Iraq.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 15:35 Comments || Top||

#10  If you read Zeyad today, he noted this about the National Conference:

...Another interesting incident was the objection of several fundamental delegates to one of the posters in the hall. It had half the face of a pretty (unveiled) Iraqi women on it representing the role of Iraqi women. They demanded the poster to be removed because 'it was improper'. Some commotion followed and one woman stood up and harshly addressed the objectors, she said that if they removed the poster now they might as well remove the women from the conference. She was met with a standing ovation from the audience and the poster remained....

---

I read a long time ago that we're going to have to accept that the rest of the world doesn't want our version of democracy.

Europe certainly doesn't, and I have had numerous conversations w/Europeans why I don't think their version/vision works.--They would have to occupy the entire region the way Germany and Japan were once occupied, and dictate norms and forms.-- Of course, maybe we didn't dictate enough.

They'll break new ground interpreting their own definition of democracy. If it gets them to move forward and all they do is turn into the Europeans, I can handle it.

After all, we're still working on it. But the young can smell it, and while it might take another 50 years, there will be a tipping point.


Posted by: Anonymous2u || 08/19/2004 15:47 Comments || Top||

#11  I think you are as naive as GWB, #9. Democracy will not "propogate" in the ME as a result of US military action in Iraq. The ME has lived next door to democracies in Europe and Israel for hundreds of years and then some. The ME has successfully avoided succumbing to the democracy "virus" inspite of this proximity because Arabs have been innoculated against the "virus." Their inflexible religion protects them from democracy.

If you think that Saddam Hussein was the only obstacle to Shiite and Sunni Iraqis embracing democracy, you are nuts. We may yet need to install another less nutty Saddam type dictator in Iraq to keep Iraqis under control when all is said and done there.

Furthermore, citing Algeria, Egypt, and Uzbekistan as stellar examples of "progress" in Muslim lands is pathetically optimistic. Re: Kurds in Syria-I don't understand what your point is there. Kurds are being tortured and killed by Syrians and that's hopeful from your POV?
Posted by: rex || 08/19/2004 15:55 Comments || Top||

#12  In other words, Warren is telling GWB to pursue US "quagmire/occupation" in other ME countries and to forget about democracizing them, because Arabs don't care about democracy,

Their inflexible religion protects them from democracy.


Oh, I see. The little brown people are incapable of democracy and thus the best we can do is pity.

I was recently reading the book, How to Deal with Difficult People. You qualify as a whiner: Constantly preening yourself by highlighting why the ideas of others won’t work, Every one in charge is stupid.
Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 16:17 Comments || Top||

#13  The little brown people are incapable of democracy and thus the best we can do is pity.
The failure of democracy to take hold in the ME has nothing to do with color. It has to do with religion. Maybe you judge people and behavior in terms of color but don't try to transpose your racist approach to interpreting history on me.

You qualify as a whiner
And you qualify as a moron, since you cannot even understand the content of a simple opinion piece. Instead you sulk, race bait, and name call when you have things explained to you.

Constantly preening yourself
Say what? Get a grip and quit being so hormonal.
Posted by: rex || 08/19/2004 16:30 Comments || Top||

#14  You're just mean and stupid B and your ideas won't work anywhere because they're hard to do and we shouldn't try. The money would better be spent buying new extra strong mobile homes for Lee County's elder population. We could use big! Big stainless steel tie downs and a new aerodynamic shape which would rotate into the wind and maybe buy auto-gyros with the leftover cash.
Posted by: Another Whiner || 08/19/2004 16:34 Comments || Top||

#15  Rex, if its the religion how do you explain the imperfect but occasional democracy in Pakistan, Malysia, and Turkey. To say its all Islam is missing something.
Posted by: yank || 08/19/2004 17:50 Comments || Top||

#16  I think you are as naive as GWB, #9. Democracy will not "propogate" in the ME as a result of US military action in Iraq. The ME has lived next door to democracies in Europe and Israel for hundreds of years and then some. The ME has successfully avoided succumbing to the democracy "virus" inspite of this proximity because Arabs have been innoculated against the "virus." Their inflexible religion protects them from democracy.

If you dont understand the cultural barriers between Israel and the arab world, or the physical barriers imposed by the arab siege of Israel, and how this differs from the position of Iraq, youre truely a moron.

If you think that Saddam Hussein was the only obstacle to Shiite and Sunni Iraqis embracing democracy, you are nuts. We may yet need to install another less nutty Saddam type dictator in Iraq to keep Iraqis under control when all is said and done there.

Maybe not the only obstacle, but it hardly follows that we need a Saddam type dictator.


Furthermore, citing Algeria, Egypt, and Uzbekistan as stellar examples of "progress" in Muslim lands is pathetically optimistic.

I never said "stellar". They are examples of progress thats all. And even before democracy is established in Iraq - the real propagation effect is supposed to happen AFTER Iraq succeeds.

Re: Kurds in Syria-I don't understand what your point is there. Kurds are being tortured and killed by Syrians and that's hopeful from your POV? No, that Kurds rebelled in Syria.


Posted by: Liberalhawk || 08/19/2004 18:01 Comments || Top||

#17  B; have a look at a few of Warren's other essays before you assume he's all wet. He's a friendly sort. Check Boston or Girlie men or The 9/11 report.
Posted by: James || 08/19/2004 19:09 Comments || Top||

#18  if its the religion how do you explain the imperfect but occasional democracy in Pakistan, Malysia, and Turkey.
Of course it's about religion being the main obstacle to democracy in Muslim dominated countries. I'm not sure what you mean when you claim Pakistan, Malaysia, and Turkey are imperfect but occasional democracies. A country is or it isn't. Pakistan is ruled by a military strong man. It's not a democracy. In Turkey Kurds are routinely suppressed. Women are treated like chattel-does honor killings ring any bells for you? Malayasia is an anti-semetic pot boiler. Not too long ago the esteemed Malaysian PM spoke about Jews using the US military to fight its proxy war in Iraq. Read the PM's speech and get back to me if you see any hope for cdemocracy to flourish in Muslim countries:
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/malaysian.asp
Speech by Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad
October 23, 2003
...We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them...They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power...Of late because of their power and their apparent success they have become arrogant. And arrogant people, like angry people will make mistakes, will forget to think...But to do so we must get our acts right. Rhetoric is good. It helps us to expose the wrongs perpetrated against us, perhaps win us some sympathy and support. It may strengthen our spirit, our will and resolve, to face the enemy...There are many things that we can do. There are many resources that we have at our disposal. What is needed is merely-the will to do it, As Muslims, we must be grateful for the guidance of our religion, we must do what needs to be done, willingly and with determination. Allah has not raised us, the leaders, above the others so we may enjoy power for ourselves only. The power we wield is for our people, for the ummah, for Islam. We must have the will to make use of this power judiciously, prudently, concertedly. Insyaallah we will triumph in the end...

As for your comments, LH, read PM Mahathir Mohamad's whole speech and then consider whether Iraq or any Muslim country will ever allow democrcay where all men and women regardless of faith are considered free and equal.





Posted by: rex || 08/19/2004 20:57 Comments || Top||

#19  rex, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's not one I share and it's not President Bush's vision for the Middle East who argued against the Middle East "not deserving democracy."
Because democracy is so antithetical to shari'a, a democratic government will help break the stranglehold the clerics, mullahs and princes have on Muslim peoples because Islam is a political system as well as a religion.
One of the problems with Islam is the Sunni vs. Shia war, too and most of the Islamic countries have one or the other in the minority who are oppressed.
Surely even Muslims must embrace the idea that Allan created them all equally.
What you propose is the same old-same old policy of accomadation that we've had for decades towards the Arab world and look how that turned out...
The Soddy Royals, who are the Waahabs and who control the government by oligarchy, are determined to spread radical Waahab Islam no matter what we do.
To just give up on Arabs and decide that they can't "do" democracy, is defeatist, wrong and doesn't work for us in the long run and it's not working for these Arab countries.
As Liberalhawk correctly points out, we've regime changed 2 countries--both of which are going to have elections for the first time in their histories EVER.
A third Islamic country has disarmed and there are varying degrees of reform moving apace in the other Arab countries.
The Bush Doctrine is working.
And even if it doesn't, America will have done the right thing which is to try and bring the blessings of Democracy to our fellow human beings who are suffering under oppression.
Posted by: GreatestJeneration || 08/19/2004 21:12 Comments || Top||

#20  Oh, and I think David Warren mis-underestimates President Bush on his strategery.
Warren is the gloomiest Gus, sitting up there as a Conservative in Liberal Canada.
We don't know how much of the Bush Doctrine is purposeful, but I'll bet a lot of it is.
Team Bush doesn't "announce" it to our enemies--both the terrorists and the Leftist media-because WE ARE AT WAR, remember?
Posted by: GreatestJeneration || 08/19/2004 21:18 Comments || Top||

#21  I think that Warren has less knowledge of the war than most 13 year-olds who have played more than one game of Risk. Campaigns are fluid by nature. Because humans beings are very creative and intelligent, laying out the progress of a campaign is an inexact science. Next time maybe we can arrange a few scrimmages with the OPFOR so that we can do a better job of predicting what our enemies will do.

For an historical parallel, Grant never intended to lay seige to Lee in Petersburg, but he seized the opportunity. Although second-guessers in Washington thought that Grant's seige was a quagmire, Grant's actions were highly effective and eventually resulted in check-mate.

I don't understand how bringing the troops home from the Middleast will provide us with a victory in the WOT. How do we expect the battle to progress while we have retreated to home?
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/19/2004 21:21 Comments || Top||

#22  "The Bush Doctrine is working. And even if it doesn't, America will have done the right thing which is to try and bring the blessings of Democracy to our fellow human beings who are suffering under oppression."

To me, the important thing is not whether democracy can be made to take hold in Arab/Muslim society and thus render it non-toxic, or whether it cannot; the important thing is that we urgently need to TRY to detoxify it, and really put our backs into the effort.

Because if we can't detoxify it, we're probably going to have to destroy it.

I can imagine two possible challenges from my future grandchildren. The first goes something like this:

"Grandpa, why in the world didn't you just kill all the bloody bastards back in 2005, instead of waiting til 2017? What was all this 'democracy' bullshit about, anyway? Anyone with a brain could have known that the Islamic world was incapable of reform! Why didn't you just kill them all in the beginning and get it the fuck over with????"

And the second is:

"Grandpa, did you really have to go and kill half a billion people back in 2005? I mean, couldn't you have at least TRIED something less drastic???? That was GENOCIDE, and you did it for no reason at all!!!"

Given a choice, I'd rather have to answer to the first charge. Hence the importance of seeing the present task through.
Posted by: Dave D. || 08/19/2004 21:32 Comments || Top||

#23  Because if we can't detoxify it, we're probably going to have to destroy it
Read the PM of Malaysia's speech. Muslims do not want to have their religion de-toxified. Muslims do not see a problem with their religion. It's us Westerners who see a problem. Muslims want to conquer and rule the world. And they will pretend to retreat. They will pretend to relent. Because Allah counsels patience. Consider that these sentiments are from a so-called "progressive" world leader.

Holding elections in Afghanistan-whoopdeedo! And women need an armed guard to vote-no worries-at least it's an election. Iraq will hold elections-and that's news? Saddam Hussein held elections and he claimed a 100% voter turnout. Big deal. Elections are all pomp and ceremony. It means nothing. Jews and Christians will never be able to walk freely on the streets of Baghdad, never. Wake up and smell the coffee. Arab nations have been hellholes for hundreds of years and GWB will not change what is unchangeable.

As for trying this great experiment instead of installing a benign strongman dictator in Iraq, do your "tinkering" with your kid's life, not mine or my neighbor's kid's life. I know the end result no matter how many bridges and mosques GIs build for Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites, they will still despiese and loathe the "infidel." At least my idea may buy some time for the West to change its reliance on fossil fuels. We should use our money and ingenuity for invention instead of nation building. Innovation will save our butts not foolish and doomed attempts at democracicizing the ME.

I don't understand how bringing the troops home from the Middleast will provide us with a victory in the WOT
Well, duh, how long do you think we should keep troops in Iraq? They have to come home some day, don't you think? How does keeping GI's in Iraq have anything to do with whether or not we win the WOT? You actually believe that democracy in Iraq, if it ever happens [dream along with me], will miraculously cause terrorism to die on the vine? Get a grip, SH.
Posted by: rex || 08/19/2004 21:55 Comments || Top||

#24  "As for trying this great experiment instead of installing a benign strongman dictator in Iraq, do your "tinkering" with your kid's life, not mine or my neighbor's kid's life."

Take your lecture and shove it, rex: my kid IS over there.
Posted by: Dave D. || 08/19/2004 22:16 Comments || Top||

#25  We appreciate his service very much, rex!
He's not only helping to bring democracy to the Iraqis but he's taking on the terrorists there so that they don't come here.
That is why Warren calls it the "flypaper" theory; Iraq is the flypaper for the jihadis.
And I think you're being very pessimistic and cynical about the whole thing, which is neither logical nor reasonable, but then you're worried about your son, I guess.
Because you refuse to believe that democracy will work, we're supposed to believe you?
I heartily suggest you read the Iraqi blogs like Iraq the model and Hammorabi and see what they are saying--and it's not at all like what you're saying--they're hungry for freedom, secularism and capitalistic progress and prosperity.
We may have to have troops in the region for decades, as we did in Japan and Germany.
So what?!
It's a volunteer military and no-one made your son volunteer, did they?
Posted by: GreatestJeneration || 08/19/2004 22:24 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Palestinians say terrorist spawn 3 buildings targeted by helicopter
Israeli air strikes continue in Gaza City
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 Posted: 5:47 PM EDT (2147 GMT)
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- An Israeli helicopter fired missiles into three buildings Wednesday night in the Zeitoun neighborhood of Gaza City, including a battery shop belonging to a suicide bomber's family, Palestinian security sources and witnesses said. The building was owned by the family of a woman who blew herself up in January outside an Israeli military post near Erez, Israel, killing three Israeli soldiers and a civilian, the Israel Defense Forces said. The plant also made explosives for the Palestinian militant group Hamas, the military statement said. Hospital sources reported no injuries from the airstrikes, which the IDF said also targeted two Palestinian metal workshops. They were hit after two soldiers and four settlers were wounded by Palestinian rocket attacks on two Jewish settlements Wednesday afternoon, Israeli military sources said.
It sounds like Israel has well developed intelligence sources within the Palestinian community.
In leaflets distributed in Gaza City, Hamas and another militant group, the Jenin Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attacks on the Gush Katif and Ashderot settlements. One of the shops hit Wednesday night contained welding machines used for producing the unguided Qassam rockets that Palestinian militants often fire on settlements, an Israeli military statement said. Wednesday night's raids followed an early morning Israeli operation that targeted a home in the Shajaiyeh neighborhood of Gaza City. At least five people were killed and 16 were wounded in a strike on a house owned by Ahmed Jabari, a Hamas military commander, Palestinian security sources and hospital sources said.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 12:44:01 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 12:15 Comments || Top||

#2  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 12:17 Comments || Top||

#3  Why?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 12:25 Comments || Top||

#4  rafah toady? LOL
Posted by: Frank G || 08/19/2004 12:26 Comments || Top||

#5  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 12:33 Comments || Top||

#6  hmmm. mohamed family is need house clean lessens.
Posted by: muck4doo || 08/19/2004 12:35 Comments || Top||

#7  Just have a look please.

Why?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 12:38 Comments || Top||

#8  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all looked, antiwar. Run along now.
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 12:41 Comments || Top||

#9  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 12:42 Comments || Top||

#10  taking out the trash
Posted by: Frank G || 08/19/2004 12:42 Comments || Top||

#11  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 12:42 Comments || Top||

#12  The child on this photo is 8 years old, and her name is Islam Mahmoud Al Khateeb. Her family found her body buried in the sand near the Jewish settlement. Her body was burned and they found evidence of violence on her body.
The parents do not know who committed this crime, but since the body of her child was found near Tal Al Sultan, Rafah, where the Israeli soldiers live, they suspect the child was killed by soldiers or settlers and then buried in the sand.


im agree with em antiwar. ima see pichure poor ded hamas guy. freedom fiters are shuld be free to fite without being shot at! and that in purdy sad that litle girl who was kill be em soldiers! itn musta be soldiers who are do that!

right antiwar? palasneans are not have a bone of violence in them!
Posted by: muck4doo || 08/19/2004 12:49 Comments || Top||

#13  What do I think? Posed picture of the sort of little boy who, if Israeli, Palestinian terrorists would murder given half a chance. Didn't do anything for me I'm afraid, anti. I think you're wasting your time.
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 12:49 Comments || Top||

#14  Why should we care?
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 12:49 Comments || Top||

#15  oooops. ima use rong tag.
Posted by: muck4doo || 08/19/2004 12:50 Comments || Top||

#16  Antiwar- What about the photos of the decapited, and maimed Israleis on buses murdered by homicide bombers. IDF is just making a cogent point.
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 12:51 Comments || Top||

#17  Antisemite doesn't care about dead Jews. She LOVES them! That's why she made no mention of the Qassam rocket factory the IDF destroyed.

Yes, the parents "suspect" that the IDF killed the child. That's always good enough for Jewhaters like Antisemite. No other evidence is necessary.
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 12:54 Comments || Top||

#18  Or what about the children who got to watch, strapped into their car seats, while brave Palestinian "freedom fighters" murdered their mother? I guess they didn't have to live with that horror too long, since those brave men then turned their guns on the kids.

And let's not forget that what "antiwar" is pointing to is an accusation without evidence. There's a body, possibly the victim of violence, but there's no evidence of who's responsible. The accusation is based on proximity and bigotry, and it's MUCH more likely the poor kid was killed by a family member. Or possibly by someone who planned to use the corpse in propaganda photos like this.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 08/19/2004 12:56 Comments || Top||

#19  ok ima went and looked. now itn your turn. zenster is post this another thread:

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/arabnazi.html
Posted by: muck4doo || 08/19/2004 12:57 Comments || Top||

#20  here. itn at this thread:

http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&D=2004-08-19&ID=40984
Posted by: muck4doo || 08/19/2004 12:58 Comments || Top||

#21  Paleo children, huh... I've got a picture of one.

Posted by: .com || 08/19/2004 12:59 Comments || Top||

#22  "Just a hunka hunka wounded flesh..."
Posted by: Elvis Presley || 08/19/2004 13:03 Comments || Top||

#23  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||

#24  Antiwar - You are typical of the equivocation left. Yes it's bad, but. . .

We've all heard it before (YAWN)

Mucky & .com! - Don't confuse Antiwar with the truth.
Posted by: BigEd || 08/19/2004 13:25 Comments || Top||

#25  What about the Ozi-ist State that you live in, antiwar? You know, the one that dispossessed the aboriginies and stole their land. Shouldn't Ozi-ists be thrown into the sea?

Australia for the aboriginies! Settlers out!!!
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 13:27 Comments || Top||

#26  Certainly Zionism is lifeblood to you Antisemite--you can pretend you hate it, rather than Jews. But that doesn't explain why you believe every antisemitic conspiracy put out by Islamist websites, does it? If the Zionist State is the problem, how come Muslims have been attacking Jews (and other non-Muslims) for centuries?

Because you hate Jews, Antisemite, we call you on it. If you don't like it, stop posting, as you promised to do ages ago, and go back to bossing around the poor developmentally disabled who are unfortunate to have you as their caretaker.
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 13:27 Comments || Top||

#27  And Bulldog is quite right Antisemite. You just won't give up your house on stolen land. Why is that?
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 13:29 Comments || Top||

#28  You know, I'd feel sad if antiwar was blown up on a bus in downtown Perth by militant aborigines, but it would have been the Ozi-ist State that would have made it happen.
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 13:33 Comments || Top||

#29  Bulldog--

Why won't the EU fund such a group?
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 13:37 Comments || Top||

#30  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 13:42 Comments || Top||

#31  Oh you mean once Australia killed most of them and shipped them off to distant reservations and waited about 100 years, they now constitute a tiny percentage of the citizens of a multicultural state on an enormous continent. I see. Surely you will extend the same forebearance to Israel. If not, why not?
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 13:46 Comments || Top||

#32  And of course you didn't steal the land Antisemite. You have profited from the OTHERS who did it for you. The land is stolen nevertheless.
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 13:50 Comments || Top||

#33  All so true, BMN! If you weren't such a transparent hypocrite, antiwar, you'd be on the first Quantas flight back to Dublin.
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 13:54 Comments || Top||

#34  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL || 08/19/2004 14:23 Comments || Top||

#35  ...Ozi-ist.
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 14:24 Comments || Top||

#36  Get your pasty-white ass off aboriginal land, settler!
Posted by: Bulldog || 08/19/2004 14:26 Comments || Top||

#37  As you can see, Antisemite specializes in convincing comebacks.

Maybe they can convince the developmentally disabled she shepherds around for the state, but not others.
Posted by: BMN || 08/19/2004 14:28 Comments || Top||

#38  And let's not forget that what "antiwar" is pointing to is an accusation without evidence. There's a body, possibly the victim of violence, but there's no evidence of who's responsible. The accusation is based on proximity and bigotry...

The norm in a culture that equates suspiciousness with guilt, and confuses the grapevine with a fair public trial.
Posted by: jules 187 || 08/19/2004 14:32 Comments || Top||

#39  Bulldog - that's brilliant :). Antiwar is an Ozi-ist!

Hear Ye! Hear Ye!
Let all Rantburgers be told, that from this day forth, the entity known as 'Antiwar' (who isn't really) shall hencefore have the appelation 'Ozi-ist'. To be used thusy;

'Antiwar (the Ozi-ist)' or 'the Ozi-ist entity know as Antiwar'.
Posted by: Tony (UK) || 08/19/2004 16:28 Comments || Top||

#40  Hi everyone please look at this website.
htt://rafahtoday.org
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 12:15 Comments || Top||

#41  Sorry my bad meant http://rafahtoday.org
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 12:17 Comments || Top||

#42  Just have a look please.
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 12:33 Comments || Top||

#43  To see what Israel is doing please take a look
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 12:42 Comments || Top||

#44  Bulldog since you looked what do you think?
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 12:42 Comments || Top||

#45  Big Ed I feel sad for those Israelis who die in attacks on buses. The Zionist State is why it happens. Reject Zionism,which is lifeblood to the Antisemites, they thrive on it and unfortunately many antizionist Jews are attacked(not necessarily in Israel) because the Zionazis lie and say Jews always support Israel.
.com. That poor child I cry when I see pictures like this.
Bmn you are just a waste so no more comments to you today
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||

#46  To answer your "concern" re Aboriginal Australians yes they were treated badly in the past. However they are now a part of Australian Society which is a multicultural society with in law the same rights for all races and religions. BMN, I saved up and am paying a mortgage on my house so I didn't steal anything.That's all from me. Bulldog What millitant Aborigines??? Have never met any. Bye for now ;-)
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 13:42 Comments || Top||

#47  One last thing (for today)
http://www.ifamericansknew.org.
Posted by: Antiwar || 08/19/2004 14:23 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Tater expected to disarm militia
Moqtada al-Sadr will disarm his militia and leave a holy shrine following a ceasefire, an aide to the radical Shi'ite Muslim cleric said, hours after Iraq's defence minister threatened to crush his rebellion.
I'm still voting for "Crush with extreme prejudice."
But US national security adviser Condoleezza Rice warned that Sadr could not be trusted to keep his word and that he would have to be "dealt with". And an armed group in Iraq meanwhile threatened to kill a kidnapped American journalist unless US forces withdraw from Najaf within 48 hours. "An armed group calling itself 'Martyrs Squad' has announced that it is holding American journalist Micah Garen... and threatened to kill the hostage after 48 hours if US forces do not withdraw from the city of Najaf," Al-Jazeera television in Doha reported. The news channel aired a video in which the presumed hostage is shown with five hooded gunmen in the background, one of whom is reading a statement which is not audible.

The announcement in Najaf that Sadr would pretend to disarm his militia came after the cleric had refused to meet delegates from Iraq's national conference who had braved fierce fighting to journey to the shrine of Imam Ali. Sadr's camp had cited unexplained security reasons for not meeting with them. "Sayyed Moqtada Sadr has sent a message to the national conference in which he accepted all the conditions extended to him, but there must be a ceasefire for the steps to be implemented," said one of his aides, Ahmed al-Shaibani.
A road map! How original!

Continued on Page 49
Posted by: tipper || 08/19/2004 12:31:09 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Who in Iraq can verify beyond a reasonable doubt that all of Sadr's thugs have given up ALL their armament, and guarantee that none are being hidden someplace for future use?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 08/19/2004 0:55 Comments || Top||

#2  When they walk out of Najaf, we will inspect them and interrogate them. Here is a sample question: " Is that a mortar in your pocket, Haji? or are you just happy to see me?"

I imagine that the Khurdi specialists should be able to find any hidden crew-served weapons for us.
Posted by: Super Hose || 08/19/2004 1:39 Comments || Top||

#3  The only sure way of disarming Sadr is ripping his f&%king arms off.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 4:17 Comments || Top||

#4  Zenster lol! That give me this image of Mr. Potato Man.
Posted by: B || 08/19/2004 4:58 Comments || Top||

#5  Yah, and the lion will lay down with the lamb while the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus play a round of golf
Posted by: cheaderhead || 08/19/2004 6:13 Comments || Top||

#6  ...According to FNC, he tried to pull a fast one by saying that the Iraqi government minister who brought him the terms wasn't really part of the Government, so it didn't count. That seems to have finally pissed off the Iraqis bad enough to make the final push on the mosque. Reporters in Najaf are saying that its all Iraqis going the last 500 yards or so and the Marines are just standing back watching the fun.
So sorry, Mister Tater - but thanks for playing...

Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski || 08/19/2004 9:02 Comments || Top||

#7  Yah, and the lion will lay down with the lamb

This may well happen one day ... but the lamb sure isn't going to get much rest.
Posted by: Zenster || 08/19/2004 22:27 Comments || Top||



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Two weeks of WOT
Thu 2004-08-19
  US Begins Major Push against Defiant Sadr
Wed 2004-08-18
  Bombs found near Berlusconi's villa after Blair visit
Tue 2004-08-17
  Tater wants Pope to mediate
Mon 2004-08-16
  Terror group threatens Dutch with "Islamic earthquake"
Sun 2004-08-15
  Terrorist summit was held in Waziristan in March
Sat 2004-08-14
  Tater wants UN peas-keepers
Fri 2004-08-13
  30 Iranians, 2 trucks loaded with weapons captured en route to Sadr
Thu 2004-08-12
  Tater hollers for help
Wed 2004-08-11
  Sadr boyz attack on two fronts
Tue 2004-08-10
  Sudan launches fresh helicopter attacks in Darfur
Mon 2004-08-09
  Tater vows to fight to last drop of blood
Sun 2004-08-08
  Qari Saifullah nabbed in Dubai
Sat 2004-08-07
  Islamist Spy in the Navy?
Fri 2004-08-06
  Pakistan hunting for more al-Qaeda
Thu 2004-08-05
  Federal Agents Raid Mosque In Albany, N.Y.

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