EFL
Taliban attacked a convoy of U.S. and Afghan soldiers on patrol along a highway in southern Afghanistan on Friday, triggering a shootout that killed an Afghan and an insurgent, police said. No U.S. soldiers were hurt, said Ghulam Jilani, a deputy police chief. The Taliban bravely fled the scene. The attack occurred on the Kandahar-Kabul highway near the Spin Aghbarqa area in Zabul province, 70 miles northeast of Kandahar.
Some two dozen Al-Qaeda-trained militants are still hiding in Pakistan's restive port city of Karachi which has been hit by a series of deadly attacks over the past two years, a top police official said. They plot attacks while their subsidiary cells provide logistical support and identify targets, police Criminal Investigation Department (CID) chief Javed Ali Bukhari told AFP. "They do not operate as a single group but they may be heading small cells of 10 to 20 people each," Bukhari said in an interview in the Pakistani commercial capital. Security forces have so far arrested some 200 suspects in an ongoing crackdown since late 2001, Bukhari said. "Our investigations with the arrested people and our own intelligence reports suggest the presence of these 24 Al-Qaeda trained terrorists operating in Karachi."
That must be upper management. The muscle boyz must number in the thousands.
He said the 24 were the top of a three-tier operational hierarchy.
That makes more sense.
"The second tier provides logistic support and pinpoints potential targets while the third tier is made up of extremely motivated executioners." He said the cells operated in small groups and had no central command structure. Security officials are unable to determine the strength of the second and third tiers but Bukhari said they were all believed to be "well trained in using explosives in telephone sets, mobile phones and video cassettes by improvising available remote systems for cars and televisions sets."
Assuming half the high command directly controls a second-level operation, they'd have from three to five groups apiece, which'd be anywhere from 36 to 60 mid-level groups. If each of them control three to five strike cells, that'd be somewhere between 108 and 300 strike cells.
Eight supporters of the radical Yemeni preacher Hussein Badruddin Al-Houthi whom government forces are hunting down in northern parts of the country, and 10 tribesmen backing the army have been killed during the last two days in continued clashes, a military source said yesterday. The military-run 26 September weekly quoted army sources as saying that government sources "launched fierce artillery bombardments on the rebels' hide-outs and demolished fortresses on three sites run by the followers of Al-Houthi," in the northern province of Saada. Forces recovered eight bodies buried under the rubble of three mountainous cave-styled barracks used by armed Al-Houthi followers.
A huge cache of weapons and ammunition was seized from those sites, one army officer told the paper, saying that authorities also discovered that the sites had been built nearly seven years ago, an indication that the Shiite cleric had been preparing for the battle for several years. Ten tribesmen from the powerful tribe of Osaimat, which is loyal to the government, were also killed in the past two days while fighting with military forces against the rebels. Among those killed was Sheikh Muhammad Jabir Janhadam, a prominent chieftain of the tribe. Army brigades equipped with tanks, artillery and helicopters began a massive offensive on Al-Houthi's strongholds on June 21, largely in inaccessible mountainous villages in Marran of Saada, 250 km to the north of Sanaa. Local sources in Saada said the clashes calmed down yesterday. "The situation is calm today, and units of armed forces are making enormous progress in their pursuit of Al-Houthi supporters," a Saada municipal official told Arab News.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/16/2004 5:02:41 PM ||
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#1
Jihadees are being taking out left and right over the last couple of weeks in Yemen. Is this a real meaningful anti-jihadist counter move, or just the normal historical inter-Arab battles for turf control?
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 22:50 Comments ||
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Posted by: Tibor ||
07/16/2004 14:22 Comments ||
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#2
...or Iran.
The article mentions that 3,600 are being redeployed, which does not sound significant. (:ess than 10% of total strength in Korea)
What is that, about one brigade ?
Can some knowledgeable person tell me what the implications of that redeployment are ?
Posted by: Carl in N.H ||
07/16/2004 14:32 Comments ||
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#4
going full speed into syria would be a huge waste of resources..defang iran and syria will fall in line, they will have no choice...but if they do not withdrawl from lebbanon that could change..
Posted by: Dan ||
07/16/2004 15:12 Comments ||
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#5
Information regarding the transfer of the 2nd Infantry Division's 2nd Brigade can be found at:
(Mr. Kalani O'Sullivan, an ex-pat and former USAF maintenace officer who lives in Kunsan, runs this web site. I consider it to be "required reading" by all those seriously interested in the situation in Korea.)
Posted by: Michael Sheehan ||
07/16/2004 17:13 Comments ||
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#6
Iran is the target.
Has a strong internal insurgency potential.
Has had a non-islamic government in the recent past.
Has a large middle class.
Has a large dissident population.
Has a government that is becoming more and more gestapo like.
And look what the US has done geopolitically:
Iraq to the west: gone.
Turkey to the NW: In the US corner now that France has screwed them over.
Azerbaijaan: US trainign forces there.
Pakistan: US Ally
Afghanistan: US Ally and US forces deployed.
Kyrgyzia and Uzbekistan: US basing forces there.
#7
I wonder when the US goes in to take out the Mullahs, if Iran (and maybe Iraq) will be allowed to fragment into constituent ethnic territories (Persian, Azeri, Kurd, whatnot)? Ethnic map
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 20:09 Comments ||
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Police in the west Australian city of Perth have arrested an Iraqi national for allegedly conspiring to commit an attack in Iraq, Federal Police Commissioner Mick Keelty said. Keelty said the 40-year-old man had been living in Australia "for a number of years" and would face court later Friday charged with conspiracy to murder under Western Australian legislation. "The allegations which will be put before the court in Perth later this morning Perth time will relate to activities that the person undertook in Australia to do with an offence that would have occurred -- had it been carried out -- in Iraq," Keelty told Channel Nine television.
The alleged murder plot targeted a person related to the former ruling Baath Party of ousted Iraqi president Saddam Hussein, Keelty said, adding that further details would be revealed at the Perth court hearing. Prime Minister John Howard declined to comment on the case but says it illustrated that terrorism remained a threat in Australia. "It is a reminder that the terrorist threat is alive and well and we have no reason to imagine that things of a serious nature could not occur in Australia," Howard said in a radio interview. "I've said that repeatedly. I hope I'm wrong, I hope it never does happen, we all hope it never happens. We cannot afford to be complacent," he said.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/16/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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#1
The title here is rather msileading. The guy is not actually a member of JI, he's simply an Iraqi refugee who decided to administer some justice on former Baath party members. The bottom of the article which talks about Jack Roche, has nothing to do with this one.
#2
Agree. From the TV news it seems that a number of his family had been killed and it seems he was trying to get back at those who had killed them. If this is true I mostlikely would think doing that myself in a similar situation. Will keep you informed when more news comes to light.
Posted by: Dave ||
07/16/2004 9:51 Comments ||
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A statement purportedly written by an al-Qaida-linked group threatened to launch attacks on Italian soil if Premier Silvio Berlusconi remains in office. The statement, signed by the Brigades of Abu Hafs al-Masri and posted Friday on an Internet site known for carrying extremist Islamic content, follows the expiration of a three-month offer of a terrorism truce purportedly made by Osama bin Laden to European states, including Italy.
"Either you get rid of the inefficient Berlusconi, or we will really burn Italy," the undated statement said, adding, "Berlusconi is dragging you into more blood plus absolute slavery to America."
The Italian government didn't immediately respond to the new threat. Berlusconi, a staunch supporter of President Bush, said recently that the Italian contingent would stay in Iraq until democracy takes hold. The premier, however, has faced strong opposition for his pro-U.S. stance, and many here have called for a troops' withdrawal. The Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigade is a shadowy group that takes its name from a top al-Qaida lieutenant who was killed in a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan in 2001. It has claimed responsibility for a number of attacks on Western targets, including the March 11 train bombings in Madrid. Counterterrorism experts question whether the group has any agents capable of launching attacks and say some of its claims are obviously false or exaggerated. The latest statement attributed to the group urges Italians to get rid of their premier or "the next message will be on your land not on the Internet," threatening to use "unconventional weapons" in a strike similar to the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks in the United States.
"We are in Italy, and not one of you is safe so long as you refuse our sheik's (bin Laden's) offer (for a truce)," said the statement, which appeared in Italian and Arabic. "We will turn his promise into reality. A bloodbath similar to Sept. 11 awaits you," the statement said. "We are able to aim at qualitative targets with unconventional weapons that will cause a grand catastrophe."
Thank the Philippines and Spain for providing such a fine example. I'm sure more of these will follow.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/16/2004 4:27:42 PM ||
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"Either you get rid of the inefficient Berlusconi, or we will really burn Italy," the undated statement said, adding, "Berlusconi is dragging you into more blood plus absolute slavery to America."
Binny, or whoever is in charge, is getting frisky from the Spanish and PI successes. But in Italy, this could also backfire. The Italians are not the wusses like the Spanish were, if we have the executed Italian hostage as an example. The interesting thing here is that they are trying to make regime change by blackmail, rather than to just get Italy out of Iraq. The pieces are moving and being placed. A hit will surely be made if the Italians do not capitualte. WWIII is upon us, and that's a fact, Jack.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/16/2004 16:50 Comments ||
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#2
Can anyone doubt that threats like this will soon be forthcoming against our other allies, and of course, against George Bush?
#3
Get the Philippines and Spanish out of Iraq, get the Jews out of the world completely-it all boils down to the same thing-do whatever we say or you die...then again, we may kill you anyway.
A few nations give in and look at the incentive it has provided jihadis to repeat their crude tactics. It puts more nations in danger.
#4
Jules 187 - Your post made the phrase "slippery slope" come to mind, which led to recalling this classic, though it's not really on-topic...
"If a man once indulges himself in murder,
very soon he comes to think little of robbing;
and from robbing he next comes to drinking
and sabbath-breaking, and from that to
incivility and procrastination."
--Thomas DeQuincy
Sorry (Peshawar!) I just thought you might appreciate DeQuincy's wit. :-)
#6
Wonder if that because Kerry bothered to get a security briefing finally. He must have had to get his head half way out of his anal cavity to do so.
#1
Apparently The Hague's support of the Paleos hasn't helped their standing. What a surprise . . .
Posted by: The Doctor ||
07/16/2004 8:58 Comments ||
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#2
Moronic Europeeons. All of western civilization is a target in this war. Even the cheese eating, murdering 'Slim supporting, anti-American, bastard French whores. They may think that they are not a target, alas, they are indeed. If the 'Slims had their way, it seems that they would kill and/or convert the West, and then move on to kill/convert any non-'Slim left on the planet.
#3
I think the Dutch have been one of the good guys. They are providing a large contingent of troops and help, and are not the ones throwing roadblocks in our way for commerical or political gain. They also have a huge Muslim problem. For instance Rotterdam may become the first Muslim majority city in Europe.
Thanks Holland.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 9:22 Comments ||
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#4
ed> Don't you know that every "Europeeeon" is a moronic enemy of America? Shame on you, ed. Shame on you: Letting facts get in the way of blind prejudice. We don't need no stinkin' facts.
And, Doctor, the Hague's so-called "support of the Paleos" wasn't done to help anyone's "standing". Unlike what the people in this forum think some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful.
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/16/2004 9:41 Comments ||
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#6
"some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful."
I see.
So it's right and lawful to try and make the Holy Land Judenrein by means of terrorist, jihadi murder?
Thanks for enlightening those of us in this forum who thought it was unconscionable.
Posted by: Jen ||
07/16/2004 9:45 Comments ||
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#7
And, Doctor, the Hague's so-called "support of the Paleos" wasn't done to help anyone's "standing". Unlike what the people in this forum think some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful.
Blowing up buses filled with women, children, and old men. Now that's legal. This is about Jew hatred, only now the cowardly bigots hide behind the claims of hatred for Israel and her "oppressive policies". I guess you feel the Jews are too harsh on the people who have vowed to murder and drive them into the sea. Abu hoo hoo. At least they aren't stuffing the 'slims into the ovens, Europeeon style. Word.
#8
actually the netherlands has been one of the stronger supportes of Israel within the EU. Now I admit thats relative, but theyre no France or Belgium. And yes, they have supported the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq, and have troops on the ground there. Theres really no call for bashing them.
#9
Liberalhawk> Theres really no call for bashing them.
Sure there is, Liberalhawk: They are Europeans. Haven't you been paying attention? The Dutch may have more than a thousand troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but that doesn't take away from their fundamental status as Europeeon untermenschen worthy of every contempt and insult.
And Jen and "Victory", it's not the Dutch nor the court at Hague that have been blowing up buses, no matter how much you want to pretend about it so as to confuse the issue.
#10
Aris,
You sure seem to have a stick up your ass against countries who dare to defy your German and French masters. But I can understand, though not sympathize, when the entire news diet of you and your countrymen consist of anti-American propaganda. What has Greece done to spread freedom, economic benefit and pluralism, not to mention democracy?
I would also like to end my post with a "Thanks Greece", but I can't
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 10:28 Comments ||
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#11
Ed> What has Greece done to spread freedom, economic benefit and pluralism, not to mention democracy?
Invented it.
But if you are talking about *recently*, much less than Netherlands has done. Which is why I like Netherlands (to the extent that I know it) much more than I like Greece.
You probably need to seriously brush up on your understanding of sarcasm.
#12
I'm usually not with a lot of what LH and Aris say, but they do make a point. We need to separate the COUNTRY from the ICJ (bunch of UN f#cktards in my book). Aris, I do disagree with your point about the Hague not blowing up busses. While technically correct, they did aid & abet the Paleos, who right around the ruling was issued, blew up some more Joos just to make a point. While I do like to separate those who ACTUALLY commit the crime from those that don't..we all know that ruling only "emboldened" the Paleos to go on another rampage. And for the record, the ICJ is supposed to rule only on cases b/w COUNTRIES (of which the P.A. is NOT one) when BOTH countries come to it for mediation. In other words (similar to the atheist father/Pledge case here in the US), this court had NO jurisdiction on the matter, as one of the parties to the case had NO STANDING on the matter.
Posted by: BA ||
07/16/2004 10:33 Comments ||
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#13
some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful."
the fact that the ICJ didn't reference Israel's need for security at all, the fact that the ICJ says that in this case, because Israel is attacked by terrorists and not by a state, makes their decision so biased as to make it easy, and right, to dismiss. It is a mockery of anything resembling justice. The right to life trumps the right to improved quality of life every time. Well, except where Israeli lives are involved, apparently.
#14
Yes, I was talking about something more recent than 2500 years ago. Something since Greek independence from the Turks would have been nice. So what has Greece done to spread freedom?
Calling the Dutch Europeeon untermenschen is not sarcasm, but an expression of underlying hostility and contempt.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 10:42 Comments ||
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#15
the fact that the ICJ didn't reference Israel's need for security at all
It did. Quite explicitely the ICJ referenced Israel's need for security. You either lie or are yourself misinformed.
Go here and search for "security" or "needs of national security".
BA> Blaming the ICJ for the bombings that Palestinians commited, you are falling yourself in the sin of blaming the people that provided the excuse instead of the actual terrorists.
The ICJ had no choice according to the international law it defended than to make the ruling it did. Whether you feel that said international law means diddly-squat or not is a *different* issue, but the court was obliged to nonetheless follow it.
#16
ed> Yes, it's indeed an expression of EXTREME underlying hostility and contempt towards all the racist fucks in this forum, Jen, Victory, so forth, who actually hold such opinions for real.
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/16/2004 10:49 Comments ||
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#18
So you make a hostile, contemptuous and racist remark directed at the Dutch who don't hold your view, then blame Jen, Victory for your action. Nice.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 10:51 Comments ||
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Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 10:57 Comments ||
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#21
ed, You are the only one who didn't understand that I was being sarcastic when I said that every insult towards the Dutch is justified because they commited the crime of being Europeans. It's only you who didn't understand that I was intentionally copying Victory's attitude in bitter mockery.
So quit it while you still have a shred of dignity left. And read this thread again, from the start, *carefully*.
#22
And just how I am a racist, Aristotle?
Muslims aren't a race.
Posted by: Jen ||
07/16/2004 11:02 Comments ||
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#23
Aris,
It has been a pleasure riding your ass. But I see that my pumping you has made you sore beyond endurance. Let's do it again next time when you recover. And bring Vaseline. So here is $20. You earned it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 11:03 Comments ||
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#24
Aris, while I think that it is possible to argue in particular cases that human rights organizations promote what is right and lawful, IMHO when you look at the big picture, it is not that simple. If you look at the history of the last 30 years, and going back even further, you find that there is a consistent theme of liberal-oriented movements and organizations being unwittingly and wittingly allied with those who wish to destroy democracy and the western way of life. The old Soviet term for this was "useful idiots". After the end of the cold war we found out a lot about how deeply western peace movements and similar organizations were penetrated and funded by the KGB. We find out now that the ISM, which follows the classic pattern of the older peace movements, is a Palestinian Communist Party creation. The UN was for decades a forum for anti-western Soviet propaganda. I believe that the NGOs, including the human rights organizations, seek to undermine the west and its institutions. IMHO the ICJ is another in the long line of this left-wing tradition, insofar as it undermines the sovereignty of the democratic nation-state.
#25
"The ICJ had no choice according to the international law it defended than to make the ruling it did. Whether you feel that said international law means diddly-squat or not is a *different* issue, but the court was obliged to nonetheless follow it." Wrong. in every war the side that started and lost the war loose territory, and it's fair. Just look at Germany or Romenia in WW2.
#26
Oh and Holland is being punished here by AQ because they support the Coalition in Iraq.
Aris, with his EU hatred of nationalism, would condemn them--like Jacques Chirac--for acting "unilaterally."
The fact that the Hague is the seat of the ICJ wins them points with the killers and probably explains why the terrorists are only threatening to attack the "softer" targets...and they got a warning instead of just having one of their people taken hostage.
Posted by: Jen ||
07/16/2004 11:05 Comments ||
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#27
"So what has Greece done to spread freedom?"
Produced me.
This has got to be the laugh of the day!
There's a picture of AK in the dictionary by both the terms "enslavement" and "useful idiot."
As for Greece's legacy to us, we have Plato's Republic and we'll have to make do with that.
Posted by: Jen ||
07/16/2004 11:09 Comments ||
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#28
<< What has Greece done to spread freedom, economic benefit and pluralism, not to mention democracy?
Invented it.>>
Let's follow that for a moment. The Athenian polis was democratic for less than 100 years, between the era of the tyrannoi who replaced kings, earlier, and the Athenian empire which rapidly became thoroughly controlled by a small the oligarchy after the Peloponnesian war.
It's a good example to bring up, because a) Athens was accused of being a unilateralist hegemony after the Athenians saved everybody's necks by defeating the Persians at Thermopylae; b) the Spartans and others then turned on Athens and c) democracy died in Athens rapidly.
Democracy is a great idea. Maintaining it is another matter. Defending it against outside and inside threats is hard -- and is the challenge we face right now. It's a continual balancing act, managing security against openness and requiring those who are comfortable due to previous successes to maintain focus and motivation.
Greece is not failing that test, but it's not exactly leading the way either IMO.
Do I have hatred in my heart for the muslims that are trying to kill us and destroy our way of life? Do I have hatred in my heart for those (Eurpeeons included among others) who aid and abet the wholesale slaughter of non-muslims, jooos, gypsies and cripples, methodically over centuries?
#30
I think the ICJ and associated and non-associated institutions ( think UN, Amnesty International, Red Thingy ) have been corrupted by bureaucratic royalty drunk on Marxian ideals and the idea that rights are absolute and carry with them no mantle of responsibility.
Just trying to join in on a super-thread before it gets too deep.
Sorry, Aris. No trolling for you today. Maybe tomorrow.
#31
ed, I told you to stop before you lost all dignity -- but you chose to go all the way instead. Let alone shame, self-respect or an admission that you misunderstood me, you didn't show even the slightest hint of *aesthetic* considerations: Same as Jen, you not only have an unhealthy fascination with other people's anuses but feel obliged to share that fascination with us.
Thanks but no thanks.
Victory> I could force you to acknowledge that those moronic Dutch "Europeeons" you insulted as somehow trying to destroy you, are the same ones who are helping you out at Iraq, but that would probably be like forcing Hitler to shake the hand of Jesse Owens: It would no doubt shortcircuit your miniscule brain.
Anonymous> Wrong. in every war the side that started and lost the war loose territory, and it's fair.
Israel hasn't annexed the West Bank by its own admission.
In fact, that the West Bank wasn't part of Israel was recently mentioned in this forum by somebody arguing me against me, another Anonymous fellow I believe. So you can't have it both ways. Has Israel annexed the West Bank, or part of it, or hasn't it?
rkb> It's a good example indeed. But though the democracy of Athens was indeed a very worthy thing to defend, and its defeat was a true catastrophe -- the thing you forget is the Sicily preemptive campaign which we studied at length when reading Thucydides at junior high. Had it not been for that mess of strategic, tactical and political follies, had Athens *not* attacked a place where it didn't need to attack and made a mess of it as well -- would it have in the end lost the war?
#32
Aris,
Thanks for being my bitch. I always enjoy yanking your pompous chain. I understand you and your attitude quite well, and I enjoy getting under your skin. If you can't hang on a thread, then fold. Pretending to be aggrieved does not work here here, and only results in you being ridden harder the next time.
PS> I do believe Greeks invented the "unhealthy fascination with other people's anuses", and are mockingly known far and wide for it. Matter of fact I think that was the first thing Greeks invented, even before Democracy.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 13:17 Comments ||
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#33
Question. If you were Al Queda, would you threaten and target European nations with larger Islamic populations or would you target nations with minimal Islamic populations.
My point being, its easier to carry off an attack in areas with larger Islamic populations but its stupid. You will kill more Muslims turning some Muslims against you. You will make life far harder for Muslims and some may resent you for it. But primarily those countries will be won through demographics in a decade or two, an easy victory that could be screwed by threats and premature attacks.
It would be much better to hit Nations with low Islamic populations. If things go bad you can fall back on the easier targets.
In fact it would be much better to convince the Islamic populations of Scandanavia, Germany to move to France and hurry the demographic shift since the nordic nations won't be a threat and France may wake up and face their problems soon.
#34
ed> You actually confess to trolling and you think that this signifies some sort of victory on your part? I didn't drop out of this argument, it's you who dropped even all pretense at one for sheer flamage. You were being intentionally stupid, intentionally oblivious to sarcasm, you intentionally portrayed yourself as an imbecile -- and you think that this makes you better than *actual* imbeciles, (like Victory)? Atleast they have the excuse of truly being morons. You were just an asshole.
And as a sidenote I believe you are wrong -- I hear that ancient Greek homosexuality didn't involve the anus, it mostly involved contact with the thighs and was non-penetrative. But either way, such gibes on your part would much better manage to provoke a homophobe or a nationalist or both. On my part I'm only offended by your bigotry.
#35
Aris,
You began the flame war of fellow posters with your snarky post #4. So let me quote you again "Shame on you, Aris[edit]. Shame on you". Aris, like much of the rest Europe, the American free ride and turning the other cheek is over. If you wish to attack, then prepare to defend yourself. What you may think think of me or other Americans no longer matters. We have had 60 years of your whining crap and are now immune to it.
I must confess, I don't know as much about homosexuality. Aris, I must bow to your intimate knowledge if it.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 13:54 Comments ||
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#36
Had it not been for that mess of strategic, tactical and political follies, had Athens *not* attacked a place where it didn't need to attack and made a mess of it as well -- would it have in the end lost the war?
The oligarchy that arose during the war with Sparta made a number of mistakes, Sicily being one of them. On the other hand, the fear and envy of the other city-states that erupted in the Peloponnese set the stage for a war that exhausted Sparta and her allies far more than Athens. Athens lost its transient experiment with democracy -- which had shallow roots there in any case -- but Sparta and its allies lost their economies and eventually their autonomy.
If you want to read Athens then as the US now, substitute many European countries for Sparta then -- and note, too, that the rigid centralized society of Sparta with its heavily enforced social rules turned out to be deeply brittle, whereas the oligarchy in Athens contributed heavily to the eventual Roman culture that followed it.
#37
Aris, moron, did I once say a word about the Dutch specifically? No. I commented on Europeeon that supports the muslim murderbots. If you have a problem with me hating nazis/fascists/enablers, you can suck my Jew balls. My whole point was that ALL of Europe is a target. All of the West is a target. Followed by every other non-'Slim entity that the 'slims can destroy. Prove me wrong or, again, suck my jew balls.
#38
I'm going to side with Aris a bit with regard to the ICJ.
Aris says, if I may paraphrase him, that the ICJ had to rule the way it did because that is what a) international law and b) good principles and justice demand.
There are a couple of issues here that need untangling, I think. The first is a judgement about the situation and actions of Israel. The second is a judgement about the situation and actions of the Palestinians. And the third is the state of international law, what its scope is and should be and whether it is adequate to deal with current threats and events.
On the first, I've commented a bit on my limited experience doing business in the Middle East, with Israel and with a major Arab country. It's hard to get a fix on the situation of the Israelis if you haven't been there: a small, beseiged democratic and 1st world country surrounded by massively larger populations, under continual attacks deliberately perpetrated by people dedicate to erasing Israel as a country and Jews as a people (in many cases). In that situation, Israel uses what she has, ie. technology and military power devised by a hard-working smart populace, to defend herself.
The palestinian issue is complex: a poor, poorly educated group of people with a deeply, deeply corrupt leadership which has spurned peace agreements multiple times and whose party constitution still calls for the destruction of Israel despite words from Arafat. OTOH, I've been on the west bank, seen the poverty and how it contrasts with Israeli cities 10 miles away, and understand the despair.
In the face of this asymmetric conflict, Europe has chosen by and large to side with the Palestinians. So too have many country leaders whose people are more like the Palestinians than like the Israelis. The EU has long turned a blind eye to the misuse of their funding, both to promote terror attacks and also to enrich Arafat himself.
In this environment, it is understandable that many here reject the ICJ's moral authority out of hand.
However, a larger problem is at work here. Namely, that the structures of international law and cooperation inherently deal with nation states and not well with non-state entities that serve as proxies for states with aggressive intent. So while I'm sympathetic to Aris' comment about law and principle, I find the ICJ's recent ruling to be lacking in two ways: first, insofar as it persists in refusing to acknowledge the organized non-state-owned (but PLA-supported and encouraged) violence against Israel. And second, in not noting the inherent difficult in ruling on this sort of issue, precisely because of the deliberate confusion regarding responsibility that the PLO, Hamas and other groups have thrown up.
#39
You began the flame war of fellow posters with your snarky post #4.
So the phrase "moronic europeeeons" (and all that followed) isn't starting a flame war, but snarkily attacking people that said it *is* starting a flame war?
What if someone had attacked "the moronic Jews" and other people "snarkily" attacked said someone for using that phrase?? I suppose you'd again see the "flame war" as being initiated by the latter party, right? Typical.
Victory> Aris, moron, did I once say a word about the Dutch specifically?
No, you bashed Europeans in their stereotypical entirety. I doubt you are intelligent enough to know that Hague (which the article refers to) is located in Netherlands.
If you want to read Athens then as the US now, substitute many European countries for Sparta then
I'd rather substitute the *actual* enemies of democracy for Sparta: countries like Russia, China, the Islamofascist axis, Castro. And I'd rather substitute Europe Australia and Japan for the *allies*, less or more reluctant in occasion, of Athens. The Sides of the Global War
The culture of Athens survived more or less, because Sparta had no culture worth surviving, same as the Islamofascist axis has no culture worth surviving. But nonetheless Athens lost the Pelopponesean war, and its golden age passed, and what it represented fell to dormancy. I don't want Western civilisation to suffer the same fate, even if eventually our values will resurface to inspire others, same as Athenean values did.
#40
RKB-Lots to agree with in what you said. I would dispute two items, though:
Two peoples or more being alike in terms of economic power does not neatly equate with their viewing the world the same way; otherwise, there wouldn't be a person in the US who sympathizes with Palestinians, and that is obviously false.
ICJ may have intended to rule that way based on good principles and justice, but justice demands "...fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law..." (Am. Her. Dic.). There may have been adherence to law, but certainly not to honor or standards. The only standards in this case are double standards (impunity for Palestinian law breaking), and honor? It's pretty hard to apply that word to ANYTHING in that region in the last few years (other than "honor" killings, and that about says it all).
What if someone had attacked "the moronic Jews" and other people "snarkily" attacked said someone for using that phrase??
Aris, Moron, as soon as the jews strap on bomb belts and blow up babies on buses, or hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings, or kidnap Olympic athletes, murdering them all, or fire up the ovens and scoop several million corpses in, and on and on and on.....then your equivocation might carry more weight. In the mean time, I still offer up my warm balls for you to suck on while you apologies for those that support murder.
#42
Ah, so your anti-European bigotry is justified because all Europeans deserve it, because of what some Germans did in WW2. Got it. Pesky details such as that most people alive back then are dead now, or even the fact that other Europeans opposed it and often sacrificed their lives to stop it -- they don't matter.
One question however: Would an antisemite be justified in his anti-jewish bigotry because of what happened to the Midianites? I'm expecting an answer in this.
Ah, so your anti-European bigotry is justified because all Europeans deserve it, because of what some Germans did in WW2.
Aris, moron, that is not what I'm saying. I hate Americans that support murderers too. That doesn't mean I hate all Americans. Are you beginning to see the difference? I do not hate all Europeeons. Just the ones that support murderers.
#46
If you want to read Athens then as the US now, substitute many European countries for Sparta then I'd rather substitute the *actual* enemies of democracy for Sparta: countries like Russia, China, the Islamofascist axis, Castro. And I'd rather substitute Europe Australia and Japan for the *allies*, less or more reluctant in occasion, of Athens.
Yes, I basically agree with you on this Aris, but there are two problems we need to address, and quickly.
First, and deepest, is that many Americans have lost confidence in countries like France, Germany and Greece as allies. Rantburg doesn't represent all of America, but posting here are many who have lived and worked beside Europeans for decades. And as you see, these people have become deeply angry. Europe as a whole (with notable exceptions) has been inexcusably self-indulgent in its attitudes towards the US. The stereotypical European is inordinately smug in his or her sense of moral and cultural superiority to the US - a smugness Americans increasingly find both unwarranted and offensive.
This has multiple consequences. It plays out in over 30 years of unbalanced anti-American propaganda in media, schools and art. That inevitably has produced two generations of Europeans with shallow, bigoted and uninformed opinions about Americans, American culture and our role in the world. I have personally met far too many from the continent who are sure that Americans are fat stupid slobs who barely speak English, much less some other language. The fact that I speak several and have been to the Continent -- and that they have not been to the US, or have only been to places like LA and NY -- doesn't seem to instill any self-doubt whatsoever in these people and their condescending opinions.
Second, as a result of those attitudes, many Europeans *are in fact not* allies at all, but are at best neutrals and at worst, as with France in many ways, are working to sabotage, restrict and hurt the US and its perceived interests.
Put those together, and I am afraid that it is increasingly hard for many Americans to view European countries as reliable allies at all. That is an unfair stereotype, but it is one that has been caused in great part by Europeans themselves.
Those in Europe who delight in the thought of wounding or destroying American culture and power (economic, political, military, cultural) are indeed endangering the West as a whole -- I agree that that is the true scope of the danger. If we are to reverse these two trends and work together, a good place to start is some humility on Europe's part and a focus on the key priorities on the part of Americans.
Otherwise, America will indeed suffer the fate of Athens in the 5th century BC. But Europe will suffer Sparta's.
#47
Put those together, and I am afraid that it is increasingly hard for many Americans to view European countries as reliable allies at all.
Do you think it's easy for e.g. Greeks to view USA as a reliable ally?
And what about all the people in this forum that'd love to smash EU to bits? Can I ever see these particular people as reliable "allies" either?
But that we don't have an alliance of *trust* doesn't mean that we don't have the IMO more important alliance of common goals. Namely that we want to preserve democracy and freedom in each of our continents.
That inevitably has produced two generations of Europeans with shallow, bigoted and uninformed opinions about Americans, American culture and our role in the world.
Perhaps. But tell me do you think that America isn't creating that stereotype for its own self?There's a big segment of *American* media that glorifies itself in portraying Americans as shallow and uninformed. "Married with Children". "The Simpsons". "Beavis and Butthead". Or I remember when I was a kid, I was seeing an ep of "Saved by the Bell" and was appalled at how savagely chess-players were mocked as opposed to e.g. football athletes.
You need more shows like "West Wing" instead, showing intelligent people behaving intelligently.
#50
And if Greek/European TV wasn't showing "Married With Children" etc. it'd be showing high-brow home-made TV instead? Who're you trying to fool, Aris?!
Let's face it: when the US isn't producing better popular TV than the local outputs - that's when you'll see less of it on your TV.
What was the las Greek "West Wing"? Anyone remember?!
How many Europeans do you know, Aris, who are familiar with the depth and breadth of political and international relations theory and analysis that has come out of US think tanks for the last 40 years? Most of it has been published in journals that are easily subscribed to and these days, some is available for free on the web.
My own experience is that I've never - not once - personally talked with a Western European who describes himself as current in international issues who has done so.
I'm not suggesting you should agree with those analysts, btw. For one thing, there is more than one school of international policy analysis in the States so they don't agree with each other.
But I am suggesting that any educated European who chooses to judge the US only based on TV and idiotic movies has been ... lazy.
#52
Bulldog, yet again, utterly misses the point which wasn't a pissing off contest about the quality of American shows versus the quality of Greek ones, but rather about the way said shows represented American life and American intelligence -- namely in a quite quite non-flattering way.
#53
PS: on the other hand, I've had several conversations with Bulgarians and Czechs who not only had read many of the seminal articles from those American think tanks, but had also thought deeply about the issues they raised.
#54
But I am suggesting that any educated European who chooses to judge the US only based on TV and idiotic movies has been ... lazy.
No shit. That's exactly what I've been saying also.
As for your questions, I don't know many non-Greek Europeans. And my Greek friends would be an unrepresentative sample, and most of them are largely uninterested in international politics one way or another.
#55
I guess it's a cultural thing then, Aris. Do Greeks have what an Italian described to me as an 'autoironic' sense of humour? Shows like the Simpsons demonstrate that Americans are more than happy to laugh at themselves. If they were culturally "flattering", they wouldn't be ... funny. Perhaps you just don't get it.
#56
Bulldog -- your argument doesn't work because what you call "autoironic" must still be applied on *self-perceived* flaws. If Americans see their self-perceived flaw to be stupidity and/or ignorance, that's still an issue of self-slander.
Compare in contrast "My big fat Greek wedding". The bits that worked and produced laughter (atleast in the Greek cinema I attended) where the ones that contained reality or atleast the perception of reality. The linguistic chauvinism of the father for example -- one of the self-perceived flaws is nationalism. Or when in the end the family buys their daughter and her husband a home next to them. That produced tons of laughter -- self perceived flaws once again.
#57
Before we go too far from it, I want to repeat something Aris said, because I think it's critically important to us all.
But that we don't have an alliance of *trust* doesn't mean that we don't have the IMO more important alliance of common goals. Namely that we want to preserve democracy and freedom in each of our continents.
This is what I had in mind when I wrote:
If we are to reverse these two trends and work together, a good place to start is some humility on Europe's part and a focus on the key priorities on the part of Americans. Otherwise, America will indeed suffer the fate of Athens in the 5th century BC. But Europe will suffer Sparta's.
I've been challenging Aris on the first part, but let me also challenge my own fellow Americans (gawd, that sounds like a campaign speech) as well:
You are pissed about European duplicity, self-indulgence and smug condescending moralizing. Me too. You wouldn't want to live in the EU, and neither do I.
I'm not suggesting you pretend none of that is true. But: get over it for now and concentrate on the central priority, which is working together as best we can to protect Western culture, democracy and economy from a determined enemy.
It truly will take us a generation - decades - to dismantle the terror networks and the ideologies that feed them. WE COULD LOSE. In the face of that threat, we all need to put aside smaller issues, no matter how strongly we feel about them, and work together.
Debate, disagree - sure.
But go back and read this thread and others that sometimes pop up at Rantburg, and ask if the personally nasty tone (from several directions) is getting us any closer to securing our way of life ... or if it is subtly helping to unravel it.
#58
The stereotypical European is inordinately smug in his or her sense of moral and cultural superiority to the US - a smugness Americans increasingly find both unwarranted and offensive.
I agree. I found it true over there as well as here. And I have felt that way about some of your responses, Aris. You always seem humorless and smug-why are you so bitter towards us? If there is something you want to say to America about why Greeks feel we are not a reliable ally, then say it.
American TV, Aris, is much like the Spanish language TV. Have you seen Univision? There are a number of shows on it that are shallow and embarrassing, to say the least, but one in particular comes to mind-a very popular Spanish talk show that deliberately places people with disfigured faces in the camera shots. Does the fact that a segment of their population loves the show mean that Hispanics are mean-spirited people with a sick sense of humor? Of course not. Every nation has its low-lifes, doesn't it?
One more thing-that some of us doubt the first steps of the EU doesn't mean we wish it ill.
#59
Bulldog -- your argument doesn't work because what you call "autoironic" must still be applied on *self-perceived* flaws. If Americans see their self-perceived flaw to be stupidity and/or ignorance, that's still an issue of self-slander.
That's your interpretation of American humour, and it seems to me both ignorant and arrogant. I think you must miss by a mile anything less than blindingly obvious humour. Is that really your opinion of a show like The Simpsons, which is amusing and entertaining on so many different levels? I'd call it comic genius. I'd say the same for South Park, too. Neither portray the US in what could be called a "flattering" light, yet probably do more to enhance America's image abroad than just about anything...
get over it for now and concentrate on the central priority, which is working together as best we can to protect Western culture, democracy and economy from a determined enemy.
I agree, which is why it feels like such a painful stab in the back that in a post 9-11 world, so much of Europe sided against the US regarding a strategic action in the War Against Islamistsâ¢. Iraq had everything to do with terrorism. So does Iran. So does Fraudi Arabia. So does Syria. So do others. The task of defeating these evil blood-cultists seems insurmountable at times. Especially when your "allies" not only disagree, but actively work against your best interests. How would you suggest we turn back the clock so that France, Germany, and their friends can have another opportunity to do the right thing? While were at it, should we turn back the clock far enough so that Europe can have a chance to stop a few other genocides? Some less than 15 years ago?
I don't disagree that we should do what we can to work with Europe,(I think Bush has), but as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water....
#61
jules> You always seem humorless and smug-why are you so bitter towards us?
I'm smug, because I'm arrogant. And my bitterness derives from the fact that I rarely care enough to comment on issues that don't annoy me enough to make me bitter.
But I can assure you I'm bitter when debating Greeks on Greek forums also, so it's not a thing I have against Americans specifically.
If there is something you want to say to America about why Greeks feel we are not a reliable ally, then say it.
Jules, that's been too often discussed for even me to want to reenter the discussion but it could probably be synopsized in the words "Junta of the Colonels". Though I suppose there's a large portion of the Greek population that would instead synopsize it as "Turkey". I guess it depends on whether their distrust is based on left-wing or right-wing attitudes.
RKB, your posts say what I would have liked, only without the anger and bitterness to those Europeans who wish the US harm. Kudos. Having lived outside the US for more than a few years and visiting many countries, I know what an extraordinary place America is. Though Rantburg does not reflect the values of all Americans, but it does reflect the values of those who will fight for it. At this juncture in time, that is the most important segment. My only point of disagreement is I think we need to fight as total war. I just am not as touchy-feely as Bush about reforming a religion and population who basic premise is to destroy all other civilizations. So in that respect he may know more or be smarter than I. I say plan with calculating coldness, but fight with white-hot anger, and no mercy, just as the Arabs have shown us.
"Married with Children". "The Simpsons". "Beavis and Butthead".
And Americans are naive? It's a well known fact all Greeks are named Zorba, sing and dance, or are prostitutes named Ilya who never do it on Sunday. Or should Americans base our Euro perceptions on Italian TV? "West Wing". With a prez played by the biggest nut job in Hollywood. Hokay. Suggest a dose of skepticism and alternate forms of entertainment. Same for your news sources.
We are in a tribal war. The Arab tribes (with other Muslim tribes as natural allies) are against the western tribes (with Americans and Jews in the forefront) and other tribes on the Muslim boundaries). Many of those tribes who lost to the Arabs conquests no longer exist. So it comes as bitter disappointment that much of Europe, who have been sheltered by American blood, sweat, and treasure, would rather see the Arabs win, or at least the American lose.
I remember how a few days after the 9/11 attacks that tried to kill 100,000 people, the Eurotrash began spouting off how it's tragic and all, but the American deserved it (or that Americans or Jews were behind it), and how the Eurotrash couldn't possibly even entertain the thought the Americans would counter attack and took steps to sabotage it. Then even larger efforts and vitriol to prevent the removal of the bloodiest dicator in the Middle East and sworn enemy of America. Well, a big FU and my undying enmity to anyone who thinks/supported that. I had tickets to go to Europe a few days after 9/11 and have been there about 10 times. But I will never travel again to Europe outside of the UK or Eastern Europe.
Feel the hate Aris. Let it nourish you. Maybe it will help you Euros grow a spine and stand on your own. Americans have been putting up with the stench emanating from Europe for much too long (and I consider Greek enmity second only to the French). Let the US leave Western Europe and cut contacts and trade to the bare minimum. It was the first two World Wars that brought the US into Europe. Let the Third be the one to finally get us out. Take away our self imposed restraints and the shackles of false friendship, and fight this war to conclusion. Make them an example for others.
I hope Western Europe (except UK) never needs the US to spill blood for them again, though I expect that in 20 years they will plead for just that. If so, I will be at the front of the picket lines shouting at the top of my lungs "No war for backstabbers. No war for self indulgent and delusional Eurotrash". Live or die on your own dime. No blood for olive oil. No blood for wine and cheese.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 19:16 Comments ||
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#63
it feels like such a painful stab in the back that in a post 9-11 world, so much of Europe sided against the US regarding a strategic action in the War Against Islamistsâ¢. Iraq had everything to do with terrorism. So does Iran. So does Fraudi Arabia. So does Syria. So do others. The task of defeating these evil blood-cultists seems insurmountable at times. Especially when your "allies" not only disagree, but actively work against your best interests. How would you suggest we turn back the clock so that France, Germany, and their friends can have another opportunity to do the right thing? While were at it, should we turn back the clock far enough so that Europe can have a chance to stop a few other genocides? Some less than 15 years ago? I don't disagree that we should do what we can to work with Europe,(I think Bush has), but as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water....
I understand. I really really understand. For those who don't know me via earlier comments of mine here, or through my occasional articles at Winds of Change, please know that I take the WOT very seriously and personally. My daughter was not far from the twin towers on 9/11. Friends of ours were in the Pentagon that day. And I personally teach young men and women who leave me to become commissioned Army officers and end up in places like Iraq a few months later.
If we all are at war, then perhaps we can learn some of the skills our Army leaders develop. One of them is this: when there's a lot at stake, do not let yourself be distracted by emotions. Just don't. The more that is at stake, the more important it is to become grimly focused on the solution.
Most of us on this list are not literally being fired at - right now, anyway - but we can resolve to bring a similar focus and intent discipline to our part, which is the debate over policy and the rallying of our own friends, family and net acquaintances.
So, as a former President suggested, "Trust but verify". Aris is right that there are many in Europe who have, or believe they have, reasons to resent the US and distrust us. I won't pass judgement on all those issues here. I'll just say that we all have more at stake right now than that.
Even the French do. With them, I trust less and verify more. But we need to work with them as well. And with the Greeks and the Spaniards and the south Koreans and even with the Phillipines and Indonesia and .... whomever.
We don't need to pretend our interests totally coincide, that we trust one another deeply in many ways or that we like one another.
We do need to find ways to work together as much as is possible -- consonant with our own security and our best judgement about how to defeat the terror networks and the ideologies and conditions that bolster them. It's in our own interest to do so and it is part of being a world leader.
I'm not saying give them a veto on our actions - nor do we have one on theirs. Nor would I trust all our allies to cover my back ... some I would, some I would work near to and some I would prefer to have a more arm's length relationship with. But any help we can get in dealing with this threat is worth taking, if we don't give up basic security in so doing.
I know of too many countries and civilizations that have been destroyed by barbarians to be complacent ... and know that many of them eroded from within when faced with threats they could otherwise have outfaced. Let's not have it happen to us.
It's a well known fact all Greeks are named Zorba, sing and dance, or are prostitutes named Ilya who never do it on Sunday.
Use all the mockery you like, but it's rather ironic when in this very thread you've used the cliched insult about Greeks that I've seen a dozen times in Rantburg, namely homosexuality. Not to mention how many times my Greekness has been doubted in this forum because I should have stereotypically virulantly hated Turkey. Now you say that people that spout stereotypes are idiots? I quite quite agree. You are idiots, o ye who spout stereotypes.
Btw, such belief in cliches hasn't been the best advertisement of intelligence either, though *unlike* some of you I've not been stupid enough to generalize from your personal intelligence to American intelligence as a whole.
and I consider Greek enmity second only to the French
Really? I've admittedly only been to France once and briefly and never discussed Politics while in it, but I'd have considered Greek anti-Americanism unsurpassed in Europe.
#65
>>And Americans are naive? *You* said that, I never did. Poor punctuationally confused boy.
Use all the mockery you like, ...
I will, trust me. BTW I never doubted your 'Greekness'. When I think of a stereotypical Greek, I think of you.
Btw, such belief in cliches hasn't been the best advertisement of intelligence either, ...
Most of your posts are you spouting your prejudices and cliches. The bit about your television viewing habits and the transference of that to your traumatized psyche is a classic.
I'd have considered Greek anti-Americanism unsurpassed in Europe.
That because you have a delusional, inflated self image. You are in no way as good as the French, but I give you credit for the effort.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 19:57 Comments ||
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#66
Even more trollery, ed? You are *proud* of being a troll?
"BTW I never doubted your 'Greekness'. When I think of a stereotypical Greek, I think of you."
No doubt you do. Which tells more things about you than about either me or Greeks as a whole.
And you don't know one bit about my TV-viewing habits, btw.
#67
c'mon people! Back in comment #17 I predicted another 84 comment-thread...you're slacking!
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/16/2004 20:12 Comments ||
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#68
Well, if the terrorists are going to hit the Hague, they should look into the ICC. Just kidding....bad taste......
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/16/2004 20:18 Comments ||
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#69
"Married with Children". "The Simpsons". "Beavis and Butthead". -- Classy shows all. But I can how the cartoon atmosphere would appeal to you.
"West Wing" -- BTW, this the real comedy show.
The quality of your comments has gone considerably downhill. I expect better from you. I would rather have a sparring partner than a punching bag. Please try to do better next time.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 20:26 Comments ||
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#70
Give us time Frank. Sadly though, I have to take off soon. Can you take over?
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 20:28 Comments ||
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#71
Frank,
Nix that. I see Sal is back, and you are needed elsewhere.
Posted by: ed ||
07/16/2004 20:30 Comments ||
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#72
That's why I'm telling you, you don't have a clue about my viewing habits -- not a single one of the shows mentioned are in them, some because I never liked them (Married with Children), some I liked but they are not on TV anymore (West Wing or Simpsons) -- and some were never broadcasted in Greece and I've caught only 3 minutes of them on MTV once (Beavis and Butthead) and what I saw was enough to turn me away.
Get my point? I refer to an American show and you assume it's in my "watching habits". But that's typical of you -- you also assumed I'm gay because I mentioned homosexuality.
Trolled enough, yet? But keep on punching if you like, because I'm *not* interested in being your "sparring partner".
#73
For someone who's not interested in being someone's "sparring partner," you've argued quite a bit, Acropolis Boy,once again, hijacking the thread and talking about your personal habits and anti-Semitic, Socialist EU political bent at length.
Holland is being punished by both AQ and Aris for being "nationalistic" and sending troops to the Coalition for OIF.
If the Dutch had behaved themselves by following the party line of the Weasel powers France and Germany, Aris and his pals who love EUrabia could relax.
RBers, AK is the personification of EU obsession with the USA--their jealousy and envy of everything that makes us great as a nation, but most of all they hate our nationalism, our military and economic strength and our success in everything from TV sitcoms to smart bombs.
His posts are interesting only to the extent that they reveal how the EU is not only the "sick man of Europe" but the sick man of the planet.
Even the Africans in their ignorance and poverty have a better grasp of reality.
Posted by: Jen ||
07/16/2004 20:54 Comments ||
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#74
You are obsessed with me, Jen.
As for my personal habits, once again you confuse victim and victimizer -- it was ed, NOT me, who started discussing them, first by the homosexuality "accusations", second by reference on my TV watching habits.
I'm not interested in sparring with ed. I'm interested in clearing up the facts.
The cute thing is that I somehow "punished" Holland, according to Jen. I wonder if Jen can find a single post, in any thread, on any date, where I've attacked even one aspect of Netherlands, one tiny bit.
Unless, just like ed, she can't tell the difference between sarcasm and seriousness. Because the whole thing started with me *defending* Netherlands from Victory's moronic attack. While ofcourse Jen lifted nary a finger.
#75
Having one friend who actually is Dutch I can say that going by what he says the "muslims" are not popular. He personally would like to see them all sent back to their place of origin. Apperently they occupy much of the limited housing people his age would normaly be moving into. They don't assimilate. ( we keep hearing this) They congergate in gangs (of young punks) and start fights. He thinks Saddam being gone is a good thing and has no use for terrorists like the PLO. By the way the Hauge is just a location. Being located there doesn't mean much.
BTW there are many muslims where he works in the Prison system. They are a majority of the inmates at his location.
[Katsaris, I ceased to be interested in your personal problems months ago. The world is at war and your contributions to the conversation are simply "not helpful" except to illustrate European appeasement and contrarianism.]
Posted by: Jen ||
07/16/2004 21:13 Comments ||
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#77
I doubt I can be both an appeaser and a contrarian, Jen. When have you ever seen me try to "appease" anyone in this forum or anywhere else? :-)
And it's only you who stands to lose if you choose to see my opinions as the "illustration" of whatever hypothetical group I somehow illustrate -- which in this forum tends to be a fictional chimaeric construction that couldn't exist anywhere -- alternately pro-Turkish and anti-Turkish, pro-Dutch and anti-Dutch, left-wing internationalist and nationalistically Greek, who urges Israel to be more aggressive and who supposedly urges it to surrender.
#79
It's the one where people admit of spending post after post in trolling and baiting, but nonetheless it's the *other* party in the debate that gets accused for increasing its length?
A team of lawyers sued the U.S. government Thursday on behalf of 15 detainees from Yemen held on suspicion of terrorism at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, a spokesman said. The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court in Washington, bringing to about 50 the number of detainees for whom suits are pending, said Clive Stafford-Smith, a human rights lawyer who leads the New Orleans-based group Justice in Exile. The actions all demand court hearings and argue the men should be freed. The U.S. Supreme Court opened the door to such suits in a June 28 ruling that said detainees may appeal to civilian courts. All of the 15 Yemenis were detained in Pakistan, said Pamela Chepiga, a lawyer with New York-based Allen & Overy, the leading law firm on the case. Stafford-Smith, who also helped prepare the case, said he visited families of many of the Yemenis in their homeland and most told similar stories: the men left to work in Pakistan and didn't return. Relatives authorized the lawyers to prepare cases. "All we're asking for is a fair hearing," Stafford-Smith said by phone from New Orleans. "These are not terrorists."
"Dat's right! We wuz just standin' around, mindin' our own bidnid, see? So dese guyz comes up wid a paddy wagon, an' it ain't full yet, so dey tells us to get in! An' we wudn't doin' nuttin'!"
The U.S. military says the nearly 600 men at Guantanamo are "enemy combatants" from the war in Afghanistan, held on suspicion of links to the fallen Taliban regime or al-Qaida. Four of the detainees have been formally charged and are to be tried by military tribunals.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 3:15:33 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
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#1
publish all the lawyers names, firms, and home addresses. The American People would like to discuss a few things...
wait til teh next attack on the US, these asshats should be lamppost hangers
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/16/2004 8:37 Comments ||
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#2
Frank, you assume that these idiots have something called shame. Clearly they do not and believe they act on a higher plane. Let them file but delay their day in court until the last possible moment. If they complain about the delay remind them of all the judges awaiting a vote in the Senate.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 17:04 Comments ||
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#5
This is Rule of Law Stuff -- Public Access to Governmental Action
We have no star chambers. And for good reason -- the Brits soured us on that, terribly.
For those with the inclination, I suggest listening to the oral arguments in the U.S. Supreme Court regarding:
Hamdi v. Rumsfeld: Link to Oral Argument, which considers whether the U.S. military may withhold basic constitutional guarantees from an American citizen who was taken into custody in Afghanistan during military combat and declared "an enemy combatant."
Rasul v. Bush: Link to Oral Argument, which considers whether the United States courts have jurisdiction to decide legal claims by foreign citizens held by the United States military at Guantanamo Naval Base, Cuba.
and Rumsfeld v. Padilla: Link to Oral Argument, which considers whether the U.S. military may withhold basic constitutional guarantees from an American citizen who was taken into custody in the United States and declared "an enemy combatant."
This is all pretty standard fare, centuries old in U.S. jurisprudence, regarding how we protect the civil rights of citizens and noncitizens -- both in times of peace, and while at war. The Justices ask good questions. They are trying to balance getting the job of the military done, without trampling on civil rights, wholesale.
I couldnât find the cases cited in the story, above, but found a similar Petition for Writ of Habeas Corpus, related to Guantánamo Bay. Nothing is secret, not even the names, phone numbers, etc. of the attorneys. Consider the attorneys a necessary evil, if you must, but realize if it was you (wrongly charged, of course) you'd want a good lawyer. Giving legal process to these a@@hats is just a legal drill for when someone innocent gets locked up. The document cites jurisdiction pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §§ 2241 and 2242, as well as pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §§ 1331, 1651, 2201, and 2202; 5 U.S.C. § 702; and the Fifth, Sixth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the American Declaration on the Rights and Duties of Man, and customary international law. The petition goes on to describe VENUE, THE PARTIES, gives a STATEMENT OF FACTS (including the petitionersâ detention, the detention order, the Guantánamo Bay Naval Base), and CAUSES OF ACTION. The PRAYER FOR RELIEF is as follows:
WHEREFORE, Petitioners pray for relief as follows:
1. Grant Petitioner . . . Next Friend status, as Next Friend of . . .; 2. Grant Petitioner . . . Next Friend status, as Next Friend of . . .; 3. Order the Detained Petitioners released from Respondentsâ unlawful custody; 4. Order Respondents to allow counsel to meet and confer with the Detained Petitioners, in private and unmonitored attorney-client conversations; 5. Order Respondents to cease all interrogations of the Detained Petitioners, direct or indirect, while this litigation is pending; 6. Order and declare the Executive Order of November 13, 2001, unlawful as a violation of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution; 7. Order and declare the Executive Order of November 13, 2001, unlawful as a violation of the Administrative Procedures Act, 5 U.S.C. § 702; 8. Order and declare that the Detained Petitioners are being held in violation of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution; 9. Order and declare the Executive Order of November 13, 2001, unlawful as a violation of customary international law, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the American Declaration on the Rights and Duties of Man; 10. Order and declare that the Detained Petitioners are being held in violation of customary international law, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the American Declaration on the Rights and Duties of Man; 11. Order and declare that the Detained Petitioners are being held in violation of the regulations of the United States Military, the Geneva Conventions, and international humanitarian law; 12. Order and declare that the Executive Order of November 13, 2001, violates the War Powers Clause; 13. Order and declare that the provision of the Executive Order that bars the Detained Petitioners from seeking relief in this Court is an unlawful Suspension of the Writ, in violation of Article I of the United States Constitution; 14. To the extent Respondents contest any material factual allegations in this Petition, schedule an evidentiary hearing, at which Petitioners may adduce proof in support of their allegations; and 15. Grant such other relief as the Court may deem necessary and appropriate to protect Petitionersâ rights under the United States Constitution and international law.
Like I said, this is standard stuff. The overreaching to international law will get struck down by the trial judge, or overturned on appeal, or in the end Congress will pass laws making the point moot. But, the most likely thing is the trial judge will kill it. We really should do it like this: This is Rule of Law Stuff -- Try them fair, hang them fair
#6
The overreaching to international law will get struck down by the trial judge, or overturned on appeal, or in the end Congress will pass laws making the point moot. But, the most likely thing is the trial judge will kill it.
Kind of a costly [TO THE US TAXPAYER!]and lengthy legal circus, wouldn't you say, so that 15 Yemeni nationals can have their "civil rights" protected.
a. Why isn't the government of Yemen picking up the tab for the legal defense of their beloved scuzball citizens?
b. If "a" is not forthcoming, why aren't American lawyers DONATING PRO BONO legal defense services to the Yemeni scuzball nationals, if American lawyers, as we are told, believe so PASSIONATELY about RULE OF LAW?
Posted by: rex ||
07/16/2004 23:56 Comments ||
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Because Yemen doesnât give a @*#t about the following, but we Americans do:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
U.S. Const. amend. V.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
U.S. Const. amend. VI.
Sorry to burst your bubble Rex, but the Founders of this nation thought lawyers were so important that they mentioned them in the U.S. Bill of Rights. Also, please note, the drafters used the word person (not citizen) meaning that these rights go beyond just citizens. Compare, e.g., U.S. Const. amend. XIV. If you hate lawyers so much, why donât you work to pass an amendment banning the profession?
And, actually every state bar (the Court kind, not the ETOH kind), as far as I know, requires the lawyers of the bar to perform pro bono services on a yearly basis. So, maybe some of this is being done for free. If not, I donât care, because the lawful and orderly application of justice is worth all the blood shed over the years by citizens of this country to preserve all our rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness!
#8
Because Yemen doesnât give a @*#t about the following, but we Americans do
You've got that wrong, bucko. The vast majority of Americans, except for American lawyers of course, would love to put these Yemeni terrorist wannabees in a cage on a remote island and throw the keys away. Who are you trying to fool with this pap about Americans wanting justice for Yemeni slimeballs? Give me a break.
maybe some of this is being done for free
Heh, heh...oh, sure, no doubt...heh, heh...dream along with me...
If not, I donât care, because the lawful and orderly application of justice is worth all the blood shed over the years by citizens of this country to preserve all our rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness!
I'll bet you don't care. And why am I not surprised? Especially since lawyers are not on the front lines shedding blood to preserve our freedoms...there are no billable hours for shedding blood. Spare me the sanctimonious rah rah about what lawyers do for this country. We've got 2 perfect specimens in the spotlight trying to slime their way into the WH.
Posted by: rex ||
07/17/2004 20:33 Comments ||
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Rex,
You are an idiot. You are confounding concepts, and confusing transient populism with bedrock principles (e.g., everybody likes to bitch about lawyers, but you should see how quickly they call one when they get a speeding ticket, an insurer claims noncoverage, the builder wonât fix the newly built, leaking roof . . .)
The Founders of this nation realized that the treatment of the accused (whether citizens or not, and no matter how heinous the act alleged) was the treatment that could wait for one and all. I say, again, âtry them fair, and hang them fair.â You may not do much reading, but I like the following passage:
âit is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.â (Blackstone (1753-1765) in 2 Bl. Com. c. 27, margin page 358, ad finem)
Of course, you may not think much of Blackstone . . . In my mind the filing of Writs of Habeas Corpus (bogus as they probably are in cases like this) is comparable to the thousands of times planes have been scrambled to keep the nation safe post 9/11, only to find out there was no problem. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and some bogus lawsuits . . .
Especially since lawyers are not on the front lines shedding blood to preserve our freedoms . . . Ah, again, you are an idiot. There are many lawyers active in the reserves, and many of them are overseas right now protecting your sorry a@@ and right to spout off your ignorant, inflammatory bull@*#t.
Spare me the sanctimonious rah rah about what lawyers do for this country. Idiot. It isnât sanctimony, itâs pragmatism and reality. My profession is not better or worse than any other in this country, and has just as many bad apples and good apples as any other. The sKerry Johns are just that, bad apples. However, this country needs the free and unfettered practice of the legal profession just as much as that of medicine, engineering, media, sanitation, retail sales, security, construction, marketing, fast food, entertainment, sports, manufacturing, education, geology . . .
Found at Little Green Footballs; see here for their thread on the incident.
A passenger apparently vomited onboard a plane just before it landed at Baltimore-Washington International Airport late Thursday night. A Southwest Airlines flight from Houston that was supposed to dock at BWI's Gate C11 was initially reported to have as many as 12 people onboard who were not conscious when the plane landed, WBAL-TV 11 News reporter John Sherman reported. But airline officials told 11 News that one person was passed out on the plane after vomiting. That set off an apparent chain reaction as five others also became ill. The first person refused treatment at the scene after the plane landed, but at least one person was reported to have been transported to a local hospital, 11 News reported. Airline officials believe the illness may be food-related.
Fire-rescue crews from Baltimore and Anne Arundel counties responded to the airport, where as many as 20 ambulances were observed, Sherman reported. As many as four Anne Arundel County medic units and at least one Baltimore County medic unit remain on standby status as of 11:30 p.m. Sherman reported seeing two planes possibly on the airport's runway, surrounded by police vehicles. Since the incident, air traffic at BWI has been slow. In fact, Sherman reported at 11 p.m. that he had not seen a plane land or take off from the airport since arriving at the scene. I have no idea whether this is significant or not. I guess we'll find out in the next couple of days.
Seems at this point to have been insignificant. The lady apparently had a tummy virus, blew her cookies, and that grossed out a couple others, who responded likewise.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
07/16/2004 1:21:38 AM ||
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#1
Passenger vomitted -- IED?
Posted by: Capt America ||
07/16/2004 2:25 Comments ||
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#6
It could also have been a sympathetic reaction. If you've ever smelled puke in a confined space, and listened to someone bringing up their insides, well, it can cause a spontaneous gag reflex.
#7
Gromky, the original 'food poisoning on airplane' movie was "Zero Hour". The comic version was "Airplane". "Airport" was the nut with bomb, pilot with lover movie.
#10
see vomit and pontaneously erupt in vomiting..
Posted by: Dan ||
07/16/2004 11:10 Comments ||
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#11
oops..left off the 's' doooh
see vomit and spontaneously erupt in vomiting..
Posted by: Dan ||
07/16/2004 11:11 Comments ||
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#12
I have a disasterously low gross-out threshhold--- just hearing someone toss their cookies, and the smell of vomit in a confined space--- sorry, I'd be losing it, too.
Actually, I am getting a little queasy just now, just from imagining it....
#15
Try it in an APC - ah. . . the smell of diesel fumes, temperature about 110F, stale sweat, assorted body funk and the guy next to you yakking it up. Boy that's livin'!
Oil and gas pipelines are the new soft-target of terrorists wanting to inflict quick economic damage, the easy & the cowards method, as in Iraq.
Firefighters in India's northeastern state of Assam have put out a gas pipeline blaze caused by an explosion claimed by rebels late on Thursday. It was one of a series of blasts which rocked Assam on Thursday. A fire also erupted on an oil pipeline in the neighbouring state of West Bengal. An outlawed separatist rebel group, the United Liberation Front of Assam (Ulfa), says it was behind all the incidents.
I guess they've recovered somewhat from the thumping Bhutan gave them...
The head of Ulfa's military wing, Paresh Barua, told the BBC that his group was responsible for three blasts in Assam as well as the oil pipeline blast in West Bengal. The fire in the gas pipeline in northern Assam's Baiganbari area was brought under control more than 10 hours after it broke out. It was caused by an explosion that blew parts of the 40-centimetre (16-inch) pipeline to pieces. The pipeline is operated by the state-owned Oil India Limited (OIL). The company's officials told the BBC that a huge fire erupted at Baiganbari after the explosion ripped open the pipeline which feeds a liquefied petroleum gas plant at Duliajan town, where the OIL headquarters is located.
A fire broke out in an oil pipeline near the Mahananda rail bridge in West Bengal at around the same time as the Assam blast. The army was called out to douse the flames in the oil pipeline and the fire that threatened to engulf a passenger train near a bridge that connects the state to Assam. Two more explosions took place on Thursday - one in the Assam capital Guwahati and the other in the western Assam town of Bongaigaon. Six people including three policemen were injured in the blast. Earlier this month, the Ulfa threw grenades at several cinema halls in Assam where Bollywood films were being screened. A security adviser to the Assam government, Jaideep Saikia, told the BBC that Ulfa had regrouped after recent setbacks. The attacks in Assam come as the state government, police and army are all busy coping with monsoon floods that have displaced nearly five million people. Millions in need and these vermin cause even more headaches Ulfa is targeting oil and gas installations to prevent what a rebel spokesman describes as the exploitation of Assam's oil and gas resources by the federal government.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 3:25:14 AM ||
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Some observers say the chaos is stemming from a plan by Israel to withdraw troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip by the end of 2005. Various militant and other groups are jockeying for power.
Some others say that everyone of all persuasions and opinions in Paleostine have had enough of the Arafish swimming around in their aquarium, using up all the oxygen, and contributing nothing but tidbits for the bottom feeders.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/16/2004 21:47 Comments ||
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#4
Bets on this being the beginning of the end, anyone?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
07/16/2004 22:03 Comments ||
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#5
Gaza is merely attaining its lowest energy state. The Palestinians' congenital inability to install the least sort of infrastructure is now manifesting in the form of entropy. Total randomness will be obtained when individuals begin to seek solutions only for themselves. They've been edging towards this sort of complete anarchy for-fricking-evah.
It's time to sit back and watch Yasser Arafat's "vision" for Palestine come to full fruition. Hamas, al Aqsa, Hizbollah and all the rest of these thugs will begin to carve up the Palestinian people like a trussed holiday turkey.
They deserve nothing less for their endless hatred and bloodthirsty mass murder attacks. It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 22:36 Comments ||
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Palestinians declare state of emergency in Gaza
Well, at least they've finally got the state they keep whining about.
What do you mean, that's not it? It's their natural state, isn't it?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/16/2004 23:11 Comments ||
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#8
Well, at least they've finally got the state they keep whining about. What do you mean, that's not it? It's their natural state, isn't it?
no , Barb, since this one is self-funding. The Paleo leeches would've reached this point a lot sooner had the UN, NGO's, EU not fed the Arafish's corruption machine. Time's UP! Paleo-Kids!
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/16/2004 23:15 Comments ||
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Since the Arab terrorists can not easily harm Israelis they have recently resorted to their old ways, bumping off each other, and or, hold other gang members for $$$$
A senior Palestinian security official was kidnapped by armed men late Friday in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian security sources said, the second such incident in less than six hours. Security officials said Col. Khaled Abu Aloula, Director of Military Coordination in the southern part of the territory was taken from his car as he returned to Gaza City from the town of Khan Yunis. Palestinian security officials said the kidnappers were Palestinian policemen who had recently been fired from their jobs. The officials said that earlier in the day Aloula had refused their request to help reinstate them. Earlier Friday Palestinian militants freed Palestinian Chief of Police Ghazi Jabali after kidnapping him in a highway ambush that deepened the sense of chaos ahead of an announced withdrawal from Gaza by Israel.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 8:21:16 PM ||
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Palestinian gunmen agreed to release five French citizens late Friday in the Gaza Strip, after kidnapping them while they drank coffee in the southern town of Khan Younis, a Palestinian official said. Witnesses saw two French women leaving the offices of the Red Crescent Society in Khan Younis, where they had been held for three hours, escorted by Palestinian security officials. The three men held hostage were not immediately sighted, they said. It was the third kidnapping in Gaza in less than 10 hours, and two Palestinian security officials faxed their resignations to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in response to the deteriorating security situation. Arafat refused to accept the resignations, however, the officials said.
Israel radio said the five were humanitarian workers, but their identities were not known. In Paris, the French Foreign Ministry said it was unable to immediately confirm that the hostage-taking took place, or provide any other information. In Jerusalem, a Palestinian official said the Palestinian government would meet early Saturday to discuss the spate of kidnappings. Two senior Palestinian security who offered their resignations were Maj.-Gen. Amin al Hindi, the head of the Palestinian intelligence service, and Rashid Abu Shbak, head of Preventive Security in the Gaza Strip.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 8:07:06 PM ||
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A senior Sunni cleric called on his followers to launch a holy war against the US forces in Iraq and threatened to turn the hotspot city of Ramadi into a "graveyard" for American troops. "I ask US President (George W.) Bush to withdraw from Iraq or else Ramadi will become a graveyard for US soldiers," declared Sheikh Akram Ubayed Furaih at weekly prayers in the city, 100 kilometres (60 miles) west of Baghdad. "I call upon my brothers the Shiites and on all other religious groups to embark on a Jihad (holy war) against the US military to force them out of Iraq," said the cleric, who spent three months in a prison after being arrested by the US military and whose home was also raided last week. "I urge all the Iraqi people to fight a holy war against the Americans," said the cleric, among the most respected figures in this Sunni rebel bastion.
#1
Better call Allawi and have him dispense some justice, Iraqi style to this asshat.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/16/2004 18:06 Comments ||
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"I call upon my brothers the Shiites and on all other religious groups to embark on a Jihad (holy war)
I can't wait to hear Alaa (aka http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/) says about this tomorrow. He is an observent Moslem who frequently starts his entries with "the compassionate, the merciful" but has started complaining about violence/hatred from clerics.
Israel has seen at least three separate terrorism alerts since yesterday, causing varying degrees of inconvenience to up to many tens of thousands of people. Israel has seen at least three separate terrorism alerts since yesterday, causing varying degrees of inconvenience to up to many tens of thousands of people. (If New Yorkers, Bostonians, Chicagoans or any major urban areaâs population within the United States had to live under the gun of mental disturbed jihadic madmen 24 hours a day, I can guarantee the citizens would be assisting city police in tracking down whomever was involved.
When Israelis finally get totally fed up with attending funerals of innocent relatives & friends who happened to utilize city buses to their places of employment, schools or shopping, resulting from the excessively high cost of owning a decent automobile, then these commuters get blown to bits by some brainwashed Arab youth filled with false images of scores of awaiting virgins, only if he butchers people he does not even know.
How do world leaders react? The vast majority condemn Israel, the victim, in relation to offering assistance to Israel to combat the organized gangs of death cultists responsible for slaughtering innocent Jewish inter-city bus passengers.)
The area surrounding the greenhouses in Morag, in southern Gush Katif, was closed off this morning by the military due to a suspected terrorist infiltration. Forces were brought in, and the area was re-opened after the terrorists were believed to have fled. The army has forbidden all hitchhiking throughout Judea and Samaria, and has sent written letters to the local Jewish towns to this effect. Intelligence information has been received regarding terrorist intentions to try and abduct soldiers or residents. The warnings concern specifically the Ramallah area, north of Jerusalem, but the army has instituted the ban all over Yesha. Civilian leaders in Yesha say that such orders are unrealistic and cannot be enforced for long. The army has established checkpoints in the Ramallah area, seeking to apprehend the would-be kidnappers.
Yesterday at 4 PM, following the receipt of intelligence information, police set up checkpoints all over the Sharon region, especially near Rosh HaAyin and Petach Tikvah, seeking to stop a terrorist bound for a suicide attack. The entrances to Netanya and Kfar Saba, as well as other roads, were closed, leading to huge traffic jams throughout the area. Four hours later, the checkpoints were removed and the alert was canceled. In Jerusalem, too, a high terror alert was in force yesterday afternoon and last night. A Kassam rocket was fired this morning towards Netzarim, in Gaza; no damage was caused.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 5:48:32 PM ||
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(This is a switch in terms of the national origin of kidnapping victims. A test for Chirac. What type of response will Mr. Chirac issue, now that the shoe is on his foot?...for a change.)
Five French citizens were kidnapped by Palestinian gunmen late Friday in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian security officials said, the third abduction in the territory in less than 10 hours. The officials said the two women and three men were abducted by gunmen as they drank coffee in the southern town of Khan Younis. Witnesses said the five were taken to the headquarters of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in the center of the town and the building was surrounded by about 25 armed men.
Earlier Friday, Col. Khaled Abu Aloula, director of military coordination in the southern part of the territory was taken from his car as he returned to Gaza City from Khan Younis. Palestinian security officials said the kidnappers were Palestinian policemen who had recently been fired from their jobs. The officials said that earlier in the day Aloula had refused their request to help reinstate them.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 4:58:01 PM ||
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#1
Instant Karma.
Posted by: Scott R ||
07/16/2004 19:05 Comments ||
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We have no choice but to bomb the entire area and send a message to the kidnappers.
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Five French citizens were kidnapped by Palestinian gunmen late Friday in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian security officials said, the third abduction in the territory in less than 10 hours. The officials said two women and three men were abducted by gunmen as they drank coffee in the southern town of Khan Yunis. The officials said they were doing everything in their power to find the kidnap victims and release them.
Now, who would these be? NGO workers, tourists, human shields? I kind of doubt any French jews would be in the Gaza Strip, but people do stupid shit.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/16/2004 3:15:21 PM ||
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#1
Oh, gee.... from a nation of Pali supporters too. Oh the shock ... the horror ...
#2
The officials said two women and three men were abducted by gunmen as they drank coffee in the southern town of Khan Yunis
Settlers wouldnt be caught dead (er, wait there must be a better way to phrase that) in Khan Yunis, and i dont think any other Jews would venture into the strip, except for the odd protestor/human shield type - not too many French Jews fit the category, AFAIK.
Tourists? Are you mad?
NGO types would be my guess. Sipping coffee, on a Friday afternoon/night, getting ready for the weekend would fit, wouldnt it?
#5
dot com - see my comment on the other thread - IF im right about whos carrying out todays ops, and why, then they just want to get the Frenchies out of the way, not hold them. Expect their imminent release before M. Chirac can even formulate a position.
#3
VERY interesting. If true, then Allawi may have initiated the "liberation myth" that JAB commented upon in this RB story... and it's an interesting angle worthy of discussion - kudos, JAB!
The ABC/AU weenie is, awards from other press hacks and editorial fools notwithstanding, an agenda agent. His story angle and veracity does not impress me, in the least. The press now occupies a slot beneath Used Car Salesmen and Real Estate Agents on my integrity scale. He'd need to name a lot of names and they'd have to publicly corroborate before I'd accept his version of the story.
That said, we all know how bizarre people can be when describing their ideas on 'justice' - "My shit is stuff. Your stuff is shit." BUT, assuming a small majority can agree these people deserved execution, I guess this eliminates most of the EU folks, I hope Allawi has the stones it takes to pull the trigger. It bodes well, IMHO, for Iraq if he's that tough and sure of himself, not to mention determined. Being attacked by people wielding axes and seeing your wife killed in that way, while you survive it, puts a man through many changes. He might be the guy, the Iraqi Marlboro Man, the hardcore hardass needed to defeat Zarqawi, Baby Assad, the Mad Mullahs, and the Wahhabists - all working their asses off simultaneously to undermine Iraq's future. In Iraqi terms, everything's on the table - all the marbles. One shot to get it right - and multiple generations to correct every misstep taken at this point.
Later, when these real threats have been dealt with, Iraq will be able to afford a touch-feely 'quibble about the color of the wheel' crowd in charge. 'B' Ark wankers and Telephone Sanitizers. For now and the forseeable future, they need a stone cold motherfucker in charge.
I've sure as hell got my fingers crossed Allawi's the man.
#4
Well, he told them he was going to exterminate them. Guess he's a man of his word.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/16/2004 13:47 Comments ||
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#5
apply same liberally to Fallujah and the Mahdi Army
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/16/2004 13:55 Comments ||
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We dont need another Mubarak, or another regime like Algeria's in the '90s, that managed to crush their domestic Islamist loonies, at the cost of said loonies taking aim at the US. I hope everyone in DC, including the folks at Langley, realize that. Kerry and Chirac may think they can get stability without democracy in the middle east, but recent history would suggest thats a problematic strategy, at best.
A short term no holds barred to pave the way for a different future, as dot com implies in his inimitable way?? Maybe. But you gotta watch the cost benefit on that. Even if we can get the SOBs in Iraq by the balls, there are plenty of others less accessible, whose hearts and minds still matter.
Possibility - with the intent of unleashing Allawi as some think is happening above, Bush is counterbalancing by his change of tack on Uzbekistan, and by pressing Sharon on Gaza? Give with one hand, take away with the other. Might be a good strategy - dont know, just speculating.
#9
Bottom dollar bet: this story is phony. There is another one circulating around Baghdad that he personally beheaded a Lebanese prisoner at Abu Ghraib. You know the reaction of the average Iraqi? Good show!
This kind of "tough guy" image is a win-win for Allawi. The people think he's a no-crap kinda guy, and the terrorists have to be scared shitless about being caught. Meanwhile, since he's not doing these things, he can just sit back and mildly deny.
#12
dot com - look suppose, just suppose for the sake of analysis, that I actually thought that Allawi shooting some jihadis in a prison, without trial, was a major blunder, playing into the hands of our enemies, in Iraq and around the world - and lets say, again for the sake of analysis that I posted such a comment. What would be the result? Yet another long batch of comments on whether it is better to be hated or feared, on the particular aspects of muslim and arab culture, on weak kneed namby pamby liberals pursuing war by the law book, versus red meat eating conservatives, probably with detours to Gaza, Viet Nam, ancient Rome, etc? We would learn NOTHING valuable, except that we all continue to hold to our particular inclinations.
I come here to actually learn something - starting another boring flamewar with people who are ultimately on the same side im on doesnt accomplish that. That means im sometimes forced to post in a perhaps excessively "nuanced" way. So be it.
To summarize
1. IF this is a good idea (assuming its even true, which I doubt) its only good as a short term measure, leading to long term an Iraq which DOES follow the rule of law, and in which prisoners are only killed after TRIAL.
2. In the short term it has both costs and benefits. The costs and benefits of a get tough policy that goes beyond democratic norms have been discussed so often here they do no bear repeating. I will leave it that are points on both sides. And whoever is making these decisions needs to be aware of both sides.
3. IF its true, and its with the awareness and consent of those who guide US grand strategy, it MIGHT be that they are choosing to pursue fear over love in Iraq, on the idea that what Iraq needs internally now is fear, while realizing that to win the hearts and minds war in other parts of the arab world something has to be thrown their way (im assuming theyre smart enough to realize that something like this would leak) and that Gaza maybe it. Don: Allawi's ready to crush these guys like we cant (wink-wink) and thats the only way we'll get security there soon, which we need to get elections there, to keep this from becoming an AQ win, and to deal with overstretch. Colin:Ok, fine, but if this gets out, it will create problems for us from Morocco to Egypt to Jordan to Pakistan - not to mention Europe - we've got enough shit after Abu Ghraib - one more big stink and we're really gonna lose help we need, on intel, on financing, etc. Don: But we HAVE to do this, or we've got more American soldiers coming home in boxs, and maybe the whole thing going down the tubes. Condi: Lets say we get a BIG news out of Israel, wouldnt that push this out of the headlines - wouldnt the arab world care more about Israeli withdawaeli from Gaza thann about some executed jihadis in Iraq? Dubya - Good idea, Condi.
#13
Valium. De-caff. I was not trying to start a flame war. Geez, what a Joycian response.
I refer to my post, again, as my observations on this story. Particularly that JAB made a prescient point on another story thread, that I think the story's uncorroborated BS at this point, and that Iraq needs a tough-as-nails leader for the time being.
Excuse me, Mr LH, for asking WTF your post meant. No sweat - forget it. HHGG is Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - it explains the 'B' Ark reference. I guess the answer is "No"... no big deal. Carry on. As you were. At ease.
#15
DF - Awright you - *mumble grumble* - troublemaker! Cease and desist! I said exactly what I meant and meant exactly what I said. No problem here! Carry on, please! Lol! Nothing to see here - move along!
#16
I don't see what the problem is. So what if Allawi shot seven dogs. Big Fucking Deal!! muslims are filthy fucking animals anyway, who's going to miss 6 or 7 of 'em? God sure won't!
Rave on Allawi!!! Fuck 'em up.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
07/16/2004 16:02 Comments ||
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#17
I was not trying to start a flame war.
I didnt necessarily think you were. Just thought that you might not understand a certain studied evasiveness I maintain on certain issues.
Yeah for Joyce ( I enjoyed Portrait of the Artist, but never finished the first chapter of Ulysses)
#19
I have stated before that this transfer of power was pushed forward to allow exactly this to happen. The fact that we could not do this once the country was defeated (due to int' laws passed after WWII) has lead to much of our problems. What was the real punishment for attacking U.S. or even Iraqi forces???? A naked picture with a dog collar? I bet most of the beheaded victims would have choosen that punishment instead.
I have read that during the occupation of Germany (and I bet the same rule was in affect in Japan) that local commanders were able to try and execute violators. These violations where things like attacking troops and even possession of firearms. This type of rule is required to bring the level of violence down before you can move forward with our more traditional law and order.
Posted by: Patrick ||
07/16/2004 17:34 Comments ||
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#20
We dont need another Mubarak, or another regime like Algeria's in the '90s, that managed to crush their domestic Islamist loonies, at the cost of said loonies taking aim at the US.
When Allawi or whoever succeeds him goes after their domestic Islamozoids but tolerates those same fanatics if they badmouth the U.S., then you have a Mubarak. In the meatime, if Allawi (who, I might add, has been threatened with death by Zarq' himself) wants to personally drop a few insurgents, well, more power to him.
#21
If you watch videos of Allawi and just examine the posture, the placement of the arms and hands and the way he holds his chin down and looks at the camera you have...Tony Soprano. Really. Just like shooting "Pussy."
A few hours after militants abducted him, the police chief of Gaza and the West Bank was freed Friday, Palestinian Authority officials said. Officials said Ghazi Jabali was released after negotiations with the kidnappers. Witnesses said Jabali was seen leaving the Bureij refugee camp in an ambulance that headed toward a Gaza hospital for a medical examination. Officials declined to say what the conditions of his release were.
In phone calls to Palestinian news organizations, a group called the Jenin Brigades, with links to Fatah and the Popular Resistance Committee, had claimed responsibility for the kidnapping. A spokesman for the Jenin Brigades told CNN the group was assured that Jabali would be removed from his post within 72 hours and that he would be investigated for suspected embezzlement and corruption. Palestinian Authority officials did not comment on the statement.
The Popular Resistance Committee is a coalition of militant groups, including Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah and others. Fatah acts as the political organization of Palestinian President Yasser Arafat and was formed by him in 1965. Palestinian security officials said Jabali was traveling in a convoy from Nusseirat refugee camp to Gaza City when gunmen stopped him. In ensuing clashes, one of his bodyguards was wounded, officials said. Witnesses said Mahmoud Nashabat, the head of the Jenin Brigades, had paraded Jabali through the Bureij camp on foot, while the entrance to the camp was blocked to police and journalists.
A Jenin Brigades spokesman, Abu Iyad, told Arabic news network al-Jazeera that the group would go after others in the Palestinian Authority suspected of corruption and told Arafat and other officials of their concerns and demands. He said the move was not a challenge to Arafat's authority. "We are a part of the Fatah movement," Iyad said. "Fatah is for reform and that's our objective. Fighting corruption is an important part of our revolutionary activity. We gave the Palestinian Authority the chance to eradicate corruption, but it failed in this respect." It is not known if Palestinian infighting was linked to the abduction.
What the hell were you just describing? Who the hell writes this stuff?
The official said Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat had agreed to the demands of the kidnappers, from the Jenin Martyrs Brigades, part of Arafat's Fatah faction, to dismiss Jabali and put him on trial for suspected corruption.
Palestinian militants seized Jabali earlier Friday after ambushing his convoy and taking him to an unknown location, Palestinian security sources said.
Two of Jabali's bodyguards were wounded and the rear window and tires of a jeep blown out during what a Palestinian security man at the scene said had been a volley of bullets from more than 10 gunmen on Gaza's coastal road.
"We gave three years to the Palestinian Authority to carry out reforms. We waited a long time. But they didn't do anything. We are doing this in our way," Abu Iyad, a spokesman for the brigades, said on Al-Jazeera satellite television. "Ghazi Jabali was kidnapped to hold him accountable for his mistakes against our people."
From the above it sounds like Jabali was corrupt, and was an Arafat loyalist (redundant?) and no overt Dahlan involvement. Not so much civil war, with all factions battling it out, as a struggle WITHIN Fatah.
#5
AP: The officials said the abduction was related to an internal feud between Jabali and the Palestinian Popular Resistance Committee, which was pressing for more jobs in the police force for its members. As head of the police forces, Jabali has been identified as Arafat's "enforcer," known for cracking down on dissenters. Jabali has made many enemies among Palestinians who see him as corrupt, but he's earned a reputation for tough leadership.
The resistance committee is a grouping of independent fighters who left established militant groups or security forces. It has no clear political agenda or ideology.
So it's just a "Jobs For Thugs" dispute.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/16/2004 11:44 Comments ||
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#6
...put him on trial for suspected corruption.
Is it me or is this a 'pot calling the kettle black' moment?
Earlier, men loyal to Mohammed Dahlan, the former Palestinian security chief, burst into Jabali's office and assaulted him.
In February, a gunfight between Jabali's officers and Dahlan loyalists erupted in Jabali's headquarters in Gaza City. One policeman was killed and 10 other people were wounded.
That clarifies the Jabali-Dahlan relationship - not particularly close, Id say.
#10
Are we sure this isn't an episode of "Palestinian Punk'd",hosted by Ashwar Al-Kutchnar?
Posted by: Stephen ||
07/16/2004 13:25 Comments ||
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#11
Yet ANOTHER kidnapping, or am i just confused?
Col. Khaled Abu Aloula, director of military coordination in the southern part of Gaza was abducted less than six hours later.
Palestinian security officials said the kidnappers were Palestinian policemen who had recently been fired from their jobs. The officials said that earlier in the day Aloula had refused a request to help reinstate them.
#15
Yet ANOTHER kidnapping, or am i just confused?
Nope, you're fine. There were two different Paleo-on-Paleo kidnappings today.
LH - Nah na na nah nah!
Posted by: Steve ||
07/16/2004 16:10 Comments ||
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#16
Palestinian security officials said the kidnappers were Palestinian policemen who had recently been fired from their jobs. The officials said that earlier in the day Aloula had refused a request to help reinstate them.
Lets THINK about this. First lets take it as given that all these kidnappings are coordinated. Means somebody with organization is doing it, not just some ex-security thugs.
They press Yasser to promise to try Jabali for corruption. Yassers main man in Gaza, whos clashed with Dahlan before.
Then they press to be reinstated in security force. Now why were they fired to begin with - cost cutting? Corruption and incompetence? Come on NOW, this is Arafats PA we're talking about. Or were they fired in an attempt to purge the Gaza security services of Dahlan loyalists, before the Israelis leave and the excrement hits the fan??
Connecting the dots, I say this IS a preemptive Gaza-wide coup by Dahlan against Arafat, and IF Arafat resists, or calls in Hamas, then yes it IS civil war time.
OTOH, I cant make head or tail out of grabbing the Frogs. Thats a very dangerous thing, if its connected to Dahlan - perhaps they just got in the way of another operation? Haaretz reports theyve been brought to the Pal Red Crescent, which is surrounded by armed men.
#17
Wow - Byzantine is almost inadequate! I do not know enough about the factional linkages, power-plays, and other aspects of the players (Dahlan, Qurei, Jabali, Arafat, et al), LH, to make any sense of this. It matters less to me which cockroach wins, in other words. Wow, again, regards the French NGOs - or whatever - they certainly thought they were immune to the shit as they sat there sipping their coffee, eh? I'll have to wait and see on all of the above. I sincerely hope they kill each other off in large numbers and weaken the sum. Gaza and the portion of the West Bank controlled by the Paleos could implode for all I care, in fact - just as long as they are marginalized and toothless to kill more innocents. Your expertise / knowledge in these machinations is way the hell beyond mine!
A local commander of the Palestinian militant group Hamas has been killed by Israeli troops in the West Bank city of Hebron Palestinian security sources said. Malek Nasser Eddin, 35, was killed in the house where he was hiding, the sources said. The Israeli Army confirmed that its troops had killed a wanted Hamas militant in Hebron. He had engaged troops in a gun battle lasting more than two hours, before being killed as he attempted to flee, the military said. Goooooood.
Double-PLUS-gooooooood.
Posted by: .com ||
07/16/2004 12:38:43 AM ||
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via Al Guardian - EFL
Jonathan Steele - Friday July 16, 2004
The families of Iraqi policemen killed by insurgents are to receive a lifetime wage, on top of a one-off compensation payment. Iraq's prime minister, Ayad Allawi, announced the scheme yesterday following an opinion poll showing that Iraqi men are increasingly reluctant to join the security services. More than 500 police have died in the last year. [snip]
A recent poll showed 43% would oppose a family member joining the national guard, and 41% are against a family member joining the police, up from 25% and 28% respectively. The families of victims will receive a lump sum of $630 (£340), the equivalent of three months' wages in Iraq. Mr Allawi also announced yesterday that some of Iraq's intelligence agents would be redeployed into a general security directorate to infiltrate militant groups. ...more...
More: AlG spins around the amnesty angle, the Filipino pullout, and the lastest bit of pipeline sabotage to end on the lowest notes they can dredge up. As for the point of the story: Good policy.
Posted by: .com ||
07/16/2004 12:34:46 AM ||
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#1
This offer balances out the way that jihadi suicide bombers' families are being compensated by other sources.
#2
Article: The families of Iraqi policemen killed by insurgents are to receive a lifetime wage, on top of a one-off compensation payment.
It's about time this happened. I can't believe Bremer did not institute this death benefits policy when he was in charge. This is something that the terrorists can't match.
#3
Zhang, had exactly the same thought probably last fall -- why didn't CPA set up a full benefits arrangement? Water under the bridge, but it seemed odd at the time. Might be an explanation -- but providing it would violate the Prime Directive on silence by the USG in the face of all questions and slanderous attacks.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/16/2004 12:31:14 AM ||
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#1
Once again the economic soft target is attacked which only harms the public, not the imported terrorists with Syrian, Iranian and other Islamic state approved 'assistance'.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/16/2004 3:29 Comments ||
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