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US expels 2 Iranians; videotaping transportation and monuments in NYC
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Arabia
Support for Al Queda under 25% in Saudi Arabia
June 29, 2004: Iraqi terrorists released a video showing them killing a captive American soldier by shooting him in the head. The terrorists have learned that the beheading routine is counterproductive and even offends many of their own supporters. The terrorists are probably also debating their suicide bombing campaign, which has killed over a hundred Iraqis in the past week. Perhaps the al Qaeda leadership is also pondering their long string of failures over the last decade or so. The fact of the matter is that al Qaeda, and their predecessor, the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt, have turned Arab populations against them whenever they practiced their terror tactics "at home." Moreover, when al Qaeda was in control of the government, as they were in Afghanistan, they quickly became hated by the average Afghan. Al Qaeda was most popular in Arab countries when it was not operating in any Arab countries, but instead concentrating on attacks on Western targets. But the war on terror has forced al Qaeda back to its homelands, and concentrated them in Iraq. There, al Qaeda is becoming as hated as it already is in the West. This hatred led to the Moslem Brotherhood’s defeat, and expulsion from Egypt over a decade ago. The same thing is happening again in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Recent surveys have shown support for bin Laden and al Qaeda shrink dramatically in Saudi Arabia (from 96 percent in late 2001, to less than a quarter of that currently.) It’s easy to admire terrorists from a distance, rather more difficult when they are terrorizing you. Iraq is rapidly becoming al Qaeda’s graveyard.

Haven’t seen those surveys and don’t trust a survey taken in Saudi Arabia but then again if the outcome of the survey was under control of the gov’t don’t you think it would have been 0% support? You’ve got to believe that the terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia are turning Saudis agaist AQ though...
Posted by: Damn_Proud_American || 06/29/2004 8:26:57 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I think AQ better start paying more attention to their focus groups.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 20:45 Comments || Top||

#2  Al Q has the beheadings, bullet riddling, and civvie booming down pat. Problem is, they can't BUILD anything. So eventually, they will piss everyone off and all they will be able to do is to pound sand, which gets them nowhere.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 20:51 Comments || Top||


Saudi offers two-month amnesty for weapon handover
Saudi Arabia, battling a wave of militant violence, announced a two-month amnesty on Tuesday during which citizens can surrender unlicensed weapons without penalty.
That's one month more than they gave the unlicensed militants.
"Guns in the green bin, please! Knives in the orange bin. Rocket launchers in the brown bin. Bombs over 100 kg in the red bin..."
An Interior Ministry statement carried by the official Saudi Press Agency called on Saudis to "make use of this opportunity and hand over unlicensed weapons".
"Hand it over? My granddaddy gimme that ballistic missile! I wuz only eight years old..."
Those who did not comply would be punished, it said. The move comes less than a week after Riyadh announced a one-month amnesty for al Qaeda militants -- who have been waging a year-long wave of attacks targeting expatriates, government buildings and officials, and oil-related facilities -- to give themselves up. At least 85 police and civilians, many of them foreigners, have been killed in suicide bombings and shootings over the last 13 months.
That leads me to believe they're not gonna give themselves up...
Authorities have seized huge caches of weapons including rifles, pistols, hand grenades, mortars, rocket-propelled grenade launchers and tonnes of explosives. Many of the weapons are believed to have been smuggled across Saudi Arabia's porous southern mountain border with Yemen.
Those in Yemen are believe to have been smuggled across that country's porous border with Soddy Arabia...
The two countries have agreed to tighten security controls on the frontier to stem the flow.
Right. Sure. Any day now.
Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abdulaziz said earlier this month that foreigners who have been unnerved by the recent wave of violence may be granted licences to carry weapons. But the Saudi Press Agency said no new licences have been issued for more than two years.
Just what I thought.
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 11:46:46 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Atta boy, Price Nayif. Seizing all the weapons belonging to people that are NOT engaged in terrorism will stop all them subversives in your midst.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 12:31 Comments || Top||

#2  Another installment in the SA BS festival, organized by Prince Nayef. Meanwhile the Saudi version of the Chicken Run from Rhodesia is taking place, which will drain all the talent that runs and develops their oil fields, THE source of wealth for the Princes and Jihadis. Stay safe, Anonymous4617 and your family.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 15:01 Comments || Top||

#3  Alaska Paul,

Thanks! We will out of here July 21st.
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/30/2004 1:16 Comments || Top||


3 Yemeni soldiers killed by Shi’ite cleric
Three more soldiers were killed and 13 wounded in continued clashes with supporters of an extremist preacher holed out in Yemen’s rugged northern border area, local authorities said Tuesday. "Three members of the military police were killed and 13 others wounded Monday evening in and around Saada in armed clashes with supporters of Hussein Badr Eddin al-Huthi who is leading a rebellion," a local official said, requesting anonymity.

Huthi, a Zaidi preacher, and hundreds of his supporters have been besieged in Maran in Saada province, near the border with Saudi Arabia, for the last nine days. The fighting continued Tuesday in several areas around Huthi’s stronghold of Houti and Maran, where "a senior officer was seriously wounded," according to a tribal official. "The officer was hit with eight bullets in the Hidane region," to the east of Maran, added the tribal official, who also spoke on condition of anonymity.
"Yez didn't hear it from me, see?"
The army, backed up by security forces, was deployed on Monday evening with new reinforcements in Saada province where the situation is very tense.
"They got guns, Mahmoud! Send reinforcements!"
"Military operations will continue until we take the last hideout of Hussein al-Huthi and his supporters and put an end to the rebellion," an army officer said. Heavy fighting that broke out on June 18 in the region, some 250 kilometres (150 miles) north of Sanaa, has left 67 dead, including 12 soldiers, while 61 militants, including the preacher’s brother Abdul Aziz, have been captured. Mediation efforts to end the fighting and secure Huthi’s surrender reached a deadlock when the preacher refused to negotiate.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/29/2004 8:48:10 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Three more soldiers were killed and 13 wounded in continued clashes with supporters of an extremist preacher holed out in Yemen’s rugged northern border area, local authorities said Tuesday.

Predator flight, anyone? Hmm? And a missile payload wouldn't hurt.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 10:58 Comments || Top||

#2  "The officer was hit with eight bullets in the Hidane region,"

What part of the body is that? Sounds very painful. :}

Seriously though, with luck these rats will be dug out of their holes and dealt with.
Posted by: Trub || 06/29/2004 11:47 Comments || Top||


Yemeni Forces Close In on Anti-US Cleric
Yemeni security officials said yesterday the country’s military forces were closing in on an anti-US cleric and scores of his armed followers in a remote mountainous area in the north of the country. “Security forces in collaboration with armed forces today cornered cleric Hussein Badruddin Al-Houthi and his followers,” in Saada province, about 250 kilometers north of Sanaa, said a security source quoted by the state-run Saba news agency. According to the source, some Al-Houthi followers were arrested, while others surrendered to authorities voluntarily. Mediation between the cleric and government forces reached a deadlock Sunday after authorities said the besieged religious leader refused to surrender. Authorities blame Al-Houthi for protests against the United States and Israel in mosques of Saada and the capital Sanaa.

The central government deployed hundreds of troops last week in Marran and launched a massive chase for Al-Houthi, a former MP and a leader of the Shiite sect. Security officials said that during fierce clashes that erupted on June 21, some 62 people including seven soldiers were killed. Sixty-eight followers of the cleric have been arrested. Al-Houthi is also accused of “receiving a Samoan foreign financial aid aiming at disturbing the country’s security and stability,” according to an Interior Ministry statement.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Interesting that he is a Shiite, looks like Saudi has nothing to do with this. I think we know what the foreign aid to him must be.
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 06/29/2004 4:46 Comments || Top||

#2  I'll take Tehran for $500, Paul?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 9:56 Comments || Top||

#3  The Iranians have been quite frisky and frothy these days, Frank. I will not challenge your bet, however are you insinuating that for the paltry sum of $500 you will take Tehran as a prize of war, hmmmmmmmmmm? How do propose to do that?
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 16:00 Comments || Top||


Britain
UK Moroccan Linked to Spain Train Bombing and 9/11
From The Sun Newspaper On Line
An alleged terror mastermind has been arrested in Britain over September 11 and the Madrid train bombings. Farid Hilali, 35, is being held in London before being deported to Spain to face charges over the rail attacks which killed 191 in March. The Moroccan was arrested by the Met on Monday and appeared before Bow Street JPs accused of participating in a terrorist organisation.

Hilali is thought to use the codename Shakur. Spanish cops say Shakur phoned the suspected chief of al-Qaeda’s Madrid terror cell days before the 9/11 attacks killed more than 2,800. Shakur allegedly said in the call from London: “We’ve entered the field of aviation and cut the bird’s throat.”
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 06/29/2004 10:51:28 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  a muslim, ya say? ROPMA
Posted by: Frank G || 06/30/2004 0:00 Comments || Top||


China-Japan-Koreas
Stealth Fighters to Korea
The Defense Ministry announced Tuesday that ten U.S. F-117A stealth fighters would be deployed to a U.S. airbase in the southern part of Korea to take part in military training that will last several months. An official with the Ministry said, “On Wednesday and Thursday, F-117A aircraft will move to Korea from Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico and will engage in military training in Korea for several months.”
Hello Norks. Wanna negotiate?
This would be the fourth time that stealth fighters have been deployed to Korea since 1993, 1996, and 2003, when those planes participated in U.S.-ROK joint military exercises such as the Foal Eagle (FE) exercise or the Team Spirit (TS) exercise. In that sense, it is quite rare for stealth fighters to be deployed to Korea when large training exercises are not in progress. Sources familiar with the situation said the move has symbolic implications that demonstrate that despite USFK force reductions, U.S. fighting power in Korea would be strengthened. The 10 F-117As to be deployed in Korea represent about 20 percent of all stealth fighter-bombers (55 units) possessed by the U.S. and also the largest number the U.S. has ever deployed to Korea.
Cue some Juche-fueled spittle in three, two, one...
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 06/29/2004 8:20:56 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  ..U.S. fighting power in Korea would be strengthened.

A waste of time, money, and resources.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 10:48 Comments || Top||

#2  Unless we're looking to "make it look like an accident" come Nork test time?
Posted by: eLarson || 06/29/2004 11:22 Comments || Top||

#3  Training, training, training. Sometimes things are exactly as they appear. (Then again, sometimes there really are guys in black helicopters.)
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 13:21 Comments || Top||

#4  In case you were wondering, the Customs Service guys do use black helicopters as well as MP-5s.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 14:04 Comments || Top||

#5  If the US expected something nasty,the F-117s wouldn't be in Korea.Japan,now,that's when to worry.This is PR to show SKs we aren't abandoning them as we draw down troop levels.
Posted by: Stephen || 06/29/2004 14:04 Comments || Top||

#6  I hope they're on their way to Korea as part of a plan to attack the North Korean nuclear sites, such as the one at YongByong, or whatever it's called. We should just call in A FLEET of B-52's & just carpet bomb the hell out of their nuclear sites and their medium/long-range missile sites...end of problem. They're successfully blackmailing us. They're making fools out of us. Other rogue states are taking notes...they're watching the manner in which we deal with North Korea. We Must make an example out of them.
Posted by: Kentucky Beef || 06/29/2004 14:26 Comments || Top||

#7  KB: What about retaliation on metro Seoul?
Posted by: Michael || 06/29/2004 14:53 Comments || Top||

#8  KB, we don't really have a fleet of B-52s anymore. There are something less than 100 B-52Hs left in the inventory (94 at last count). All the B-52Ds & Gs were destroyed (wings cut off among other things) as part of the START agreements. As far as bombing the NORKs, We (long, long ago on an island far, far away) used to have target folders for iron bomb sorties against North Korean targets. Rest assured there are much better ways than carpet bombing to destroy these sites and B-52s from Guam could play a part in them.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 15:31 Comments || Top||

#9  The NORKS have most of their important Nuke assets in deep underground rooms, and I am sure that the entrances are blast hardened. They will not be the easiest nuts to crack. OldSpook, any words of wisdom on how easily any and all the entrances could be detected and neutralized? I do not know if we have the capability of directly attacking all of the underground chambers holding the goodies.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 16:08 Comments || Top||

#10  Lobby your congress-critter for tactical nuke development / authorization .....
Posted by: too true || 06/29/2004 16:44 Comments || Top||

#11  Don't think you need to bomb all the buried assets. The only real target in NK is Kim Jong-il. If he and all his progeny were to suddenly disappear, it would be difficult to maintain the cult of personality that is North Korea.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 17:37 Comments || Top||

#12  I'm still not sure why they call these things fighters when all they've ever been used for is strike (i.e. bombing) missions, even in conflicts where the airspace had to be cleared of the enemy.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/29/2004 18:16 Comments || Top||

#13  ZF, they're fighters when compared to the stealth bomber, the B-2. It's a matter of size and maneuverability. These guys could carry missiles and engage in air-to-air combat, but it would be a waste. Their principal attribute is stealth. We have lots of fighters that can do air to air, but nothing else can go downtown like these guys. The unfortunate thing about them is there just aren't enough of them.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 21:34 Comments || Top||

#14  First off size doesnt matter - radar and IR cross section and signatures do.

Secondly, look for "penetrating munitions" announcements on the internet from the US.

The hard part used to be guiding them in, exactly, and repeatedly. Now we do not have that problem thanks to the improved guidance, and the development of technology that specifically was designed to overcome this sort of fortification.

Now fill in the lines between whats public and what is real (and with military technology there is usually a pretty good gap).

Also add to that the US surveillance capabilities - to activate these sites they have to eventually produce heat signatures, and those can be detected with the side looking version of FLIR from Recon flights in the area. And my old Dragon Lady pals are probably staying very busy.
Posted by: OldSpook || 06/29/2004 23:15 Comments || Top||


Europe
Karadzic arrest ’imminent’
Chief U.N. war crimes prosecutor for the former Yugoslavia, Carla Del Ponte, says she is optimistic that former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic will be in custody by the end of the day Wednesday. Asked why she thought they would be in custody soon, Del Ponte said Tuesday, "I cannot tell it now publicly -- let’s obtain the arrest of Karadzic and afterward we will talk about what we have done, what we have learned."
"The Saudis have him surrounded!"
"I can say no more!"
Posted by: Angie Schultz || 06/29/2004 10:12:15 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  That "World" snuck in there from CNN's page. Drat them!
Posted by: Angie Schultz || 06/29/2004 22:13 Comments || Top||

#2  She needs to heed her own advice...Why on Earth would she broadcast his imminent arrest? That's why they haven't caught him in ten years of trying. What a bunch of fuck-ups.
Posted by: Kentucky Beef || 06/29/2004 22:50 Comments || Top||

#3  Arrest is one thing. It will take her another decade to prepare her case - which she will botch.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 22:59 Comments || Top||

#4  I would laugh my head off if they arrested him in Paris. In one of Chiraq's apartments.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/29/2004 23:06 Comments || Top||

#5  his hair will be arrested separately
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 23:41 Comments || Top||


Hijacking Foiled on Plane from Munich to Istanbul
BERLIN (Reuters) - Three men have tried to hijack a plane from Munich to Istanbul carrying 150 passengers but the pilot was able to return to Munich airport where special forces stormed the plane, German television has reported.
Posted by: Karma || 06/29/2004 7:05:06 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  And it sez the men's names are:

Hans Ficklegruber
Nigel Smith
Niccolo Ravittamente

Oh, waitasec, that's an alternate universe, nevermind...
Posted by: Carl in N.H. || 06/29/2004 22:45 Comments || Top||

#2  That's what I love about our tightened port security. It doesn't have to be air-tight, only marginally tighter than the security of a softer target. Canada has us covered on that front.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 22:49 Comments || Top||

#3  I heard on N.P.R. that it was only one guy and that he wasn't a terrorist.
Posted by: Kentucky Beef || 06/29/2004 22:52 Comments || Top||


European Court Backs Ban on Muslim Scarves
Banning Muslim headscarves in state schools does not violate the freedom of religion and is a valid way to counter Islamic fundamentalism, the European Court of Human Rights said Tuesday. In what could be a precedent-setting decision, the Strasbourg-based court rejected appeals by a Turkish student who was barred from attending Istanbul University medical school because her headscarf violated the official dress code. The court decision, which takes precedence over national court rulings, could help the French government face court cases it expects to be filed in September against a headscarf ban it plans to impose in state high schools.
Fatwa in 5..4..3...
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 10:14:57 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The point isn't finally the headscarf, is it?

The real issue is that those who wear it are following an order of society at complete odds with the modern world to which they have emigrated. Their world is about shame of the human body, women as a subclass of humanity, and all people having to submit to Muslim values.

Europe is slowly strangling itself with its PC approach to this problem.
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 10:50 Comments || Top||

#2  I'm surprised they managed this delay in dhimmitude...
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 11:22 Comments || Top||

#3  I'd stay off the trains in France for awhile.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 11:30 Comments || Top||

#4  jules> The real issue is that those who wear it are following an order of society at complete odds with the modern world to which they have emigrated.

Wrong, and you too tu3031. This decision was about Turkey, not about immigrants.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 11:41 Comments || Top||

#5  Then I'd stay off the trains in Turkey.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 11:45 Comments || Top||

#6  Bzzzzzt! Wrong, Aris. Does it, or does it not apply to all EU states, all immigrants? Jeez, read the words! Applies to France and "takes precedence over national court rulings"??

WTF?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 11:46 Comments || Top||

#7  Jules said that the issue was about immigrants and failure to assimilate to the society the emigrated to.

That was wrong. Unless I misunderstood his comment, in which case let *him* say I misunderstood it.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 11:49 Comments || Top||

#8  As a sidenote I fail to understand what the article means *in this case* about superceding national courts. If the decision had been the opposite, I'd understand the point -- nations wouldn't have the right to restrict the headscarves to their citizens, national rulings would be overruled in this respect.

But now the European court said that the nations *do* have this right, so I don't understand what is meant by the "superceding" thingy.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 11:53 Comments || Top||

#9  Aris:

Whatever the "technical" answer might be as to what this ruling is about, deep down those who are thinking clearly know quite well that its ALL about "immigrants and failure to assimilate to the society the emigrated to".

Wishful thinking on your part doesn't change Islam's *fundamental* inability to blend into secular society.
Posted by: Crusader || 06/29/2004 11:55 Comments || Top||

#10  Crusader> If it's ALL about the issue you are talking about, do you think that Turkey isn't interested at all about the decision?

As a sidenote, people, read the court's reasoning. The secular state of Turkey's constitution seems to have taken into account. This will also help likewise-secular France in its own case against the headscarves, but less fully-secular countries may have much more trouble making the case.

I imagine that Greece wouldn't have a leg to stand on against the headscarf, when daily prayer and religious class-as-catechism is the norm in schools.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 12:01 Comments || Top||

#11  Aris, Your correction about emigrants is due, but my main point is still valid--this insistence on wearing scarfs flows from the Muslim insistence on forcing of religious values onto a secular society (France or Turkey).

Aris, truly, your comments sometimes come across as mannerless and smug, and this alienates the many people who ARE interested in learning from others on this site. I certainly don't know everything--that's why I am here-to weigh the ideas of others and contribute my own. You have to be open to the possibility that others have a good point.
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 12:03 Comments || Top||

#12  How very brave and French: Let's pick on the little girls. What good could this move possibly do? The EU won't deal with real problems; instead it takes on the children. I would not be worried that my children are attending school next to someone wearing a headscarf.
Freedom of religion and the freedom of parents to raise their children are good things.
There are very serious problems with the Muslims in Europe. Headware is not the problem.
Posted by: Anonymous5442 || 06/29/2004 12:15 Comments || Top||

#13  Agreed, 5442, but the whole reason behind headscarves is supposed to be modesty (i.e. to hide their feminity and sexuality) and "piety."
Why impute sexuality to pre-pubescent girls way before their time?
Of course, in the Muslim suburbs of France, they say the gang rape stuff so charactestic of Muslim males starts pretty early.
Posted by: Jen || 06/29/2004 12:19 Comments || Top||

#14  Anonymous5442> The headscarf is the way that good Muslim boys use in order to distinguish the good and virtuous Muslim girls from the dirty apostate-whores whose lives need to be threatened.

It's not freedom of religion. It's not even the much more morally-ambivalent "freedom of parents to raise their children". It's de facto enforcement of religion.

I have no sympathy for the headscarf.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 12:21 Comments || Top||

#15  How very brave and French

Why is everyone in this thread ignoring that the headscarf-ban was first done in Turkey, and that even the decision mentioned in the article is about Turkey first and it involves France only through precedent-setting?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 12:25 Comments || Top||

#16  Aris, you may be correct, as to what the scarf means to certain people. The note from Jen (and in part) from Aris from underscore my point: Leave the little girls alone. Go after the real problems. There are real problems. I have heard of the gang rape problem: Do something about that. If the Muslims truly cannot live with the rest of the society, then you might have to throw them out. (I must admit that such an idea bothers me; I am just at a loss as to how to deal with these situations.)

And, from what I hear from Greek friends, Aris' mention of "dity apostate whores" is not over done language when it comes to Muslim treatment of non-muslims. The stories I have heard and read are heartbreaking.
Posted by: Anonymous5442 || 06/29/2004 12:29 Comments || Top||

#17  Fair enough: First done in Turkey. However, I do believe it is inaccurate to say that this is merely going to France through precedent. Chriac brought this idea up a bit ago as a sop to the right wing. However, to make it "French" he also proposed banning Jewish caps and crosses.

Second, how would refusing to permit headscarves make Muslims stop abusing their neighbors?
Posted by: Anonymous5442 || 06/29/2004 12:37 Comments || Top||

#18  The tragic part of the "dirty apostate whores" thing is that I've read that young Muslim males have formed gangs where they just lay in wait to rape their own girls and thus Muslim girls have no choice but to become "dirty apostate whores."
Apparently, the French police are so afraid of the Muslim banlieu (suburbs) that they don't even go into them anymore to uphold the rape and assault laws.
So the horny Muslim males have the run of the place.
Truly a terrifying situation--France has a societal cancer that is going to kill them.
Posted by: Jen || 06/29/2004 12:46 Comments || Top||

#19  Second, how would refusing to permit headscarves make Muslims stop abusing their neighbors?

As I said, in the given circumstances of the rise of Islamofascism, de jure "permitting them" becomes de facto "forcing them", because little Muslim girls and their families would be afraid *not* to wear these things.

Now they have an excuse towards their peers, and towards their families also -- "the state doesn't permit us".

This measure is not meant to hurt the little girls, it's meant to help them against both peers and families. The way I see it atleast, and the way I believe it is meant.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 13:01 Comments || Top||

#20  Folks need to read up on the head scarf ban in Turkey, and why Turkey considers it to be such a threat to secularism. It's not just picking on little girls. Head scarves are a fairly recent thing in much of the Muslim world, associated with the rise of fundamentalism, and a form of pressure to conform to the fundamentalist movement.
Posted by: virginian || 06/29/2004 13:05 Comments || Top||

#21  But now the European court said that the nations *do* have this right, so I don't understand what is meant by the "superceding" thingy.

Well, that's easy. The court bowed to the wishes of the French, the court's raison d'etre, so to speak. What a shitstorm it would cause if the decision went the other way.

On the other hand, I have to defend the French on the head scarf issue. On the surface the head scarf encroaches on their separation of church and state doctrine. At the deeper level, there is the question of whether the state takes precedence over religion (as it should, IMO).
This has nothing to do with freedom to follow your religion. Many here are asking if American Muslims are Muslims first and Americans second. Well, see what is happening in France, and learn. The head scarf is an early test case for the French, and provides an example to watch carefully for everyone else.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/29/2004 13:14 Comments || Top||

#22  Aris, your point is well taken in 19. I also understand with your point about giving some cover for those who would seek to avoid confrontation with their neighbors. Virigian is correct about it being a fairly recent thing. Rafael is correct about questioning the degree to which Muslims are Americans.

All that being granted, I still don't think this will solve any problems. First, if I am a Muslim who does not force his daughter to wear the scarf, I may still be abused by my neighbors. I have become a collaborator.

Second, in this context, "secularism" is effectively an imposed religion - especially since it is opposed directly to a religion. There is a difference between the law prohibiting people from forcing their neighbors to conform to an idea and permitting people to express their ideas.

Third, the problem is not whether a person holds a particular religious position, or whether that person's religion prohibits them living peaceable in a country. If Muslims want to disagree with the tenants of the country, fine. The problem is killing everyone who disagrees.

Finally, why doesn't the EU take on the real problems. The headscarf ban (even if it is a good idea) still won't stop the more fundamental problems with Muslims in the West. Their are a good number of these people who want to kill us. Muslim eschatology is truly fascinating. Provoking a war with Europe ("the Romans" or "Rome") is a necessary event before Allah intervenes in history.
Read it yourself:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/041.smt.html


Posted by: Anonymous5442 || 06/29/2004 13:30 Comments || Top||

#23  My question on this issue is not based on the matter of Islamism/headscarf/etc, but this: Does the ECHR have jurisdiction over the totality of Europe or just with member states of the EU? Does a non-EU or even EU country have the right to ignore the Court's decisions?

Considering how EU opponents to Turkish admission to the body must make the average Turk ticked off at the EU, is it expected then that Turkey (or Norway, Switzerland) should abide by any decision by the ECRH?

Today's Instapundit has several links to Turkey/Bush/Chirac/UK/EU Constitution. Damn confusing is all I can say.
Posted by: Michael || 06/29/2004 13:47 Comments || Top||

#24  I could give a rat's ass what muslims wear or catholics wear for that matter. The point is that once again the vaunted birthplace of western civilization has opted for appearance (literally) over substance. Have a problem with terrorism - make'm go bareheaded - that'll fix the problem.
Posted by: Mercutio || 06/29/2004 13:51 Comments || Top||

#25  Rafael is correct about questioning the degree to which Muslims are Americans.

The degree to which Muslims are Americans first, and Muslims second. (These may not be mutually exclusive, but I'm only considering the case where they may be).

...permitting people to express their ideas.

There is also a difference between people expressing their ideas with their own money, and doing it with public money.

If Muslims want to disagree with the tenants of the country, fine.

That is ridiculous. So if a Muslim disagrees with democracy, and counsels people against voting, intimidating those that do...this is supposed to be tolerated??? This is the sort of people we want in our country???
Posted by: Rafael || 06/29/2004 14:19 Comments || Top||

#26  Right, Rafael, it gets sticky there. What if this Muslim is a company boss and disagrees with the tenet of equal rights under the law or equal opportunity for all or basing no employment decisions on race, gender, or religion? Is he free to discriminate against non-Muslims and women, despite their ability and talent for doing the job? Yes, we have gender and religious conflicts in America all the time, but we have laws to remind us that our country will not sanction discrimination. Imposition of Muslim cultural norms on non-Muslim societies has opened up a Pandora's Box of conflict and strife.
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 14:37 Comments || Top||

#27  Rafael: The right to freedom of speech permits even painfully stupid speech. Idiots are free to argue that we should have slavery and a king. I think the problem comes with the use of the word "questioning". Intimidation goes beyond talking. We can tolerate stupid speech; but not violent actions.

Second, I would like it if Muslims decided not to vote.

Third, you are right about expressions with private or public money. However, protesting on a public space is not using public money to protest. If it were, the government would be required to forbid all speech in public spaces.

Finally, I think the underlying nature of your concern is correct: These people (or at least a great many) seem to want to go beyond speech. In point of fact, Muslims are not merely Amish girls with a different accent. If they were, there never would be a problem.

The real difficulty comes about because the Islamofacists seek to use our freedoms (speech, travel, privacy) as means to kill us. We can stop speech, travel, privacy, but then we loose something very important.

I do not want to trash the Bill of Rights, and I do not want to be killed.
Posted by: Anonymous5442 || 06/29/2004 14:53 Comments || Top||

#28  Michael> AFAIK, Turkey has accepted to place herself under the European Court of Human Right's authority. In exchange it gets trade agreements, benefits, financial aid, etc, etc.

Sure, it can disobey the court, nobody will physically force her to obey. But Turkey *will* lose all the things that the EU is already giving her (even without Turkey being a member state).

I am not sure what is the status of other non-member countries in this respect. Checking the verdicts of the European Court I see that countries like Ukraine, Croatia, are also listed, so it may be indeed that pretty much the whole of Europe has chosen to abide by the court's decisions.

Rafael> France has been condemned by the European Court many times. Check for "France" in the listings:

http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/Judgments.htm
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 15:26 Comments || Top||

#29  Just for a reality moment
(and don't hold it against me please)
my schul bans the wearing of not NFL constumes
just one team in particular.... any guesses?

6th Grade Raider fans are the worst! LOL!
Posted by: Shipman || 06/29/2004 15:26 Comments || Top||

#30  If Muslims want to disagree with the tenants of the country, fine.

as long they dont disagree with landlords of the country ;)
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 15:28 Comments || Top||

#31  ship - in my shul one guy wears a Redskins Tallis - no one messes with him!
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 15:29 Comments || Top||

#32  Reading further on this, I think I have confused the institutions -- it seems that the European Court of Human rights concerns itself with the signatories of the European Declaration of Human Rights, and it's not connected intrinsically with the EU itself -- except in the sense that all EU members *must* bind themselves to abide by it.

http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/EDocs/DatesOfRatifications.html

Apologies for the confusion.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 15:30 Comments || Top||

#33  Liberalhawk: How great a shame I feel at the misplacement of a vowel. Incidentally, Santa Monica (CA) has a law which makes it illegal for landlords to call their tenants names. Tenants are free to abuse their landlords.
Posted by: Anonymous5442 || 06/29/2004 15:31 Comments || Top||

#34  Aris I'm visit you're namesake Ken's pasture this early am.

I've snagged one scarlet snake, almost snagged an indigo snake and brushed up against an interested cow. I suggest you move here. I was forced to detain several cow patties for further investigation.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/29/2004 15:32 Comments || Top||

#35  Shipman> No goats? Awww...
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/29/2004 15:34 Comments || Top||

#36  OOps LH
Bad spellin I meant Skool not Schul! :)
Posted by: Shipman || 06/29/2004 15:34 Comments || Top||

#37  No Aris the mushrooms in question don't grow in goat dung.. tho prehaps they could. But our mushrooms are very local adapted.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/29/2004 15:35 Comments || Top||

#38  You're all right to worry about the political implications of this:
wearing the headscarf isn't to conform with some law in the Koran, it's a political tool the Muslims use to begin infiltrating a culture and using classic principles of Liberalism to get the dictates of shari'a incorporated as de facto mandatory laws.
(Note that there are now schools in New Jersey that are going to set aside Muslim holidays for the school system...then there's the Muslim prayer call that is now allowed outside of Detroit.)
Turkey was quite right to ban the headscarf and its wearers and their Muslim adherenets pose a threat to secular Turkish government.
In France's case, it's too little, too late and in this case, has even negative consequences as it hurts both Jews and Christians by banning their jewelry.
Their Muslim populations were out of control some years ago.
Happily for the U.S., 9/11 probably happened just in time before they got a firmer foothold here.
Posted by: Jen || 06/29/2004 15:39 Comments || Top||

#39  Bad spellin I meant Skool not Schul! :)

Same origin - Yiddish Schul literally means school, from the German word - a translation into Yiddish of the Hebrew Bet Midrash, House of Study (of the Torah)
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 15:56 Comments || Top||

#40  Note that there are now schools in New Jersey that are going to set aside Muslim holidays for the school system

Public schools closing for religious holidays, outrageous ;)

Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:15 Comments || Top||

#41  Lh, Christian and Jewish holidays are,of course, fine.
Muslim ones are not.
Islam is not part of our culture and never has been.
Posted by: Jen || 06/29/2004 16:17 Comments || Top||

#42  Jewry and Popery were not parts of our culture either, they came to sully our Protestant culture, doncha know?

Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:25 Comments || Top||

#43  ...schools in New Jersey that are going to set aside Muslim holidays for the school system...

Better alert the nurses' stations to set aside extra bandages for all the little ones slicing open their foreheads and flagellating themselves on school property for the glory of Allan...
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 16:40 Comments || Top||

#44  only Shia do that Jules.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 17:25 Comments || Top||

#45  "When some in my country speak in an ill-informed and insulting manner about the Muslim faith, their words are heard abroad and do great harm to our cause in the Middle East," Bush said.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 17:25 Comments || Top||

#46  Only Shia do it--how are you going to allow the practices of one sect of Muslims and not the others? PRACTICAL APPLICATION MATTERS.

When some in my country speak in an ill-informed and insulting manner about the Muslim faith, their words are heard abroad and do great harm to our cause in the Middle East...

Bush either realizes that speaking about the idea of religions in conflict is ahead of most people's time, or has taken the first incorrect steps of his presidency.
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 17:40 Comments || Top||


Blast on plane at Istanbul airport
There has been an explosion on board a plane at Ataturk airport in the Turkish city of Istanbul, police say. A cleaner on board the Turkish Airlines plane was injured in the blast, which happened after the passengers had disembarked, police said.

UPDATE:A booby-trapped device has exploded on a plane at Ataturk airport in the Turkish city of Istanbul, police say. Three cleaners on board the Turkish Airlines plane were injured in the blast, which happened after the passengers had left, police said. A Turkish Airlines spokesman said the explosion on board the plane was caused by a booby-trapped parcel resembling a wallet. The spokesman said one cleaner lost a finger in the blast when he tried to open the package, while two other cleaners suffered minor injuries.
"Hey, look what I.......BOOM....found"
Police cordoned off the aircraft after the incident and firefighters were called to the scene. The plane had just arrived on an internal flight from Izmir on the Aegean coast. Security in Istanbul had been stepped up for a summit of Nato leaders, which ended on Tuesday.
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 8:47:09 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


'Wallet' Explosive charge injures three on Turkish plane (not airborne)
Posted by: Lux || 06/29/2004 08:29 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Test run.
Posted by: Dragon Fly || 06/29/2004 8:31 Comments || Top||

#2  Premature detonation.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/29/2004 9:31 Comments || Top||

#3  Made with the Union label!
Posted by: Dragon Fly || 06/29/2004 9:44 Comments || Top||

#4  Somewhere nearby there was likely a frat boy with fishing pole and a line to the wallet.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 06/29/2004 12:35 Comments || Top||

#5  Im alwayz use a baggie of oregano instead of wallet for fun fishing
Posted by: Half || 06/29/2004 12:48 Comments || Top||


Zapatero rules out any role in Iraq
Spanish prime minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero ruled out Monday playing any role in Iraq, just hours after the Nato alliance promised to help train the Iraqi army to calm the violence-wracked country. Speaking at the Nato conference in the Turkish city, Zapatero said: "The Spanish government does not foresee any participation in the process under way in Iraq, and in no circumstances any participation on Iraqi territory."

He was replying to a question on whether Spain would help train the fledgling Iraqi army. Earlier, Zapatero and President George W. Bush had a fleeting meeting of just seven minutes to exchange views. Zapatero stressed that Spain is to "reinforce its participation in the peacekeeping operation in Afghanistan." But he did not give any more details.
Wuss.
Posted by: Seafarious || 06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Chirac's MinneMe.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/29/2004 2:18 Comments || Top||

#2  Perhaps it should be noted that many here will be in the same boat as approximately half of the Spaniards, after November, wishing we had a real President. On that note, I empathize with those in Spain who grind their teeth every time Zappy takes a four-point stance.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 2:23 Comments || Top||

#3  Bush should have punched him.
Posted by: Destro || 06/29/2004 2:24 Comments || Top||

#4  Punching comes after reelection.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/29/2004 2:32 Comments || Top||

#5  Mr. Bean II speaks again. What a worm.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 2:33 Comments || Top||

#6  Even the Malaise/Mayonaise king Jimmuh Carte can get elected once. It will be interesting to see whether Zippy gets an encore. We got repeatedly whacked by AQ while Clinton was in charge and reelected him and then nearly elected Gore to continue the flush down the jonny.
Sure, I voted for HW Bush and then Dole, but the not my fault argument has always seemed hollow to me. Some of my UAW workers vote against every contract that is proposed by management so that they can claim that they have no responsibility for anything bad that results. Many would say that "UAW Worker" and "lacking of repsonsibility" is redundant but I don't think I reached that stage of disgust yet.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:13 Comments || Top||

#7  What's Spanish for "Buck-buck-braaawk?"
Posted by: Mike || 06/29/2004 5:32 Comments || Top||

#8  What's Spanish for "Buck-buck-braaawk?"

"Zapatero".
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/29/2004 9:33 Comments || Top||

#9  "The Spanish government does not foresee any participation in the process under way in Iraq, and in no circumstances any participation on Iraqi territory."

Without any onvolvement, Spain then no longer has anything to say on the subject. Zappy would do well to keep this in mind.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 10:54 Comments || Top||

#10 
Zapatero ruled out Monday playing any role in Iraq
GOOD! We'd constantly have to be worried about being stabbed in the back anyway.

Stay home and play with yourself, Zappy. The jihadis will let you know when they want something else from you.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/29/2004 11:01 Comments || Top||

#11  I say Spain needs a parade. A grand parade with French marching bands leading the way and large floating cartoon animals following.
Posted by: Lucky || 06/29/2004 12:42 Comments || Top||

#12  I guess that the Plus Ultra brigade is now the Non Plus Ultra brigade. It's a pity to be reminded how far Spain has fallen. Europe, in general, with the exception of the UK is becoming irrelevant. France and Germany can't project any significant amount of military power. Most european economies are sinking in the La Brea Tarpits of socialist demographics. I can see why their birthrates are well below replacement. There's no hope in the future for the people of these countries and no meaning to the present. It's good to be an American.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||

#13  "The Spanish government does not foresee any participation in the process under way in Iraq, and in no circumstances any participation on Iraqi territory..."

Status quo. Code language: WE WON'T DO ANYTHING. No big surprise though--that is what the electorate in Spain wants for Iraq-exactly nothing.
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 13:59 Comments || Top||

#14  Just when you think cowardice cannot be any more abject ...
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 14:54 Comments || Top||

#15  Start loading up the int'l community in Afghanistan, we know there's 1300 soldiers sitting at home doing nothing.
Posted by: Anonymous2U || 06/29/2004 15:33 Comments || Top||

#16  It's really going to hurt if Skeery is elected -- all of these comments will need to made into a mirror.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 20:33 Comments || Top||

#17  Herman Kahn popularized the phrase "thinking about the unthinkable" back in the 60's to describe thermonuclear war. It is equally applicable to a Kerry presidency. The thought of another freak show like we had during the Clinton years is unthinkable. Kerry is like Clinton, just not as smart, not as likable, and not as resolute. The impact on our armed forces would be even worse than Jimmy Carter (and that was disastrous). They say that nations get the politicians they deserve. I can't believe that we've become so pathetic as to deserve Kerry and friends.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 22:05 Comments || Top||


Spaniard Released in Madrid Bombings Probe
A judge released a Spaniard Monday accused of helping transport the dynamite used in the March commuter train bombings, court officials said. Antonio Ivan Reiss, 21, was charged with collaborating with an armed group. He was arrested Thursday in Spain's Canary Islands. At Monday's hearing, Reiss acknowledged carrying a bag in a bus to Madrid to deliver it to suspects who attacked the train. But Reiss told Judge Juan del Olmo that he thought the bag contained hashish, not the dynamite authorities believe was in the satchel, officials said. The judge did not give an explanation for his order, but throughout the investigation he has released suspects from jail, saying that their apparant role in the attacks was not serious enough to keep them in custody. Reiss was the latest suspect detained in connection with the bombings of four commuter trains during morning rush hour, an attach that killed 190 passengers and bystanders and wounded more than 2,000.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:31:16 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Oh, just a dope smuggler? You can go.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 11:33 Comments || Top||

#2  Yes your honor. Honest. I thought it was hash. But I didn't open it to sliver off enough for even one joint since that would have been dishonest. You know, your honor, it's an honor-among-thieves thing. You just wouldn't understand.
Posted by: Michael || 06/29/2004 14:02 Comments || Top||


Protesters, Police Clash Near NATO Summit
Hundreds of protesters hurled fire-bombs and stones at police Monday as they tried to reach the conference center where NATO leaders were meeting.
Hmmm... Sounds like peace protesters to me...
Any giant puppets?
Police used tear gas and water cannons to stop the crowd, and dozens of people were injured. The clashes took place in two Istanbul neighborhoods about two miles from a barricaded zone in the center of the city where the NATO leaders were meeting. The leaders include President Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and French President Jacques Chirac. In central Ankara, meanwhile, a security camera exploded in front of a defense ministry building, shattering some windows but causing no injuries, police said. News reports at first said it was concussion grenade but police ruled that out, saying the blast wasn't the result of an attack. Leftist groups have carried out several similar bombings in the runup to the summit. In the Istanbul protests, 26 police officers and about 20 civilians were injured in the protests, officials said.
... and a wonderful time was had by all...
In the most violent protest, in Istanbul's Okmeydani neighborhood, about 2,000 demonstrators flipped cars over and hurled firebombs at police. Police fired water cannons and tear gas at the protesters and beat some with clubs. An armored personnel carrier moved through the street where small fires burned. Another crowd of protesters gathered nearby and threw rocks at police who used pepper spray to disperse the group. Police said 44 protesters were detained, the Anatolia news agency reported.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:31:16 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  High Unemployment + High Concentration of Idiotarianism = Big Turnout.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 2:31 Comments || Top||

#2  a security camera exploded in front of a defense ministry building

I've been working with security cameras for years and I've never had one explode on me. They must have purchased it from Pakistan.
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 10:02 Comments || Top||

#3  I'm sorry, but when they throw firebombs it's time to break out the live ammo
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 10:23 Comments || Top||

#4  Aren't these protesters the same folks that have been telling us that the ONLY CORRECT TOOL FOR POLITICAL CHANGE IS DIALOGUE?
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 10:42 Comments || Top||


NATO involvement in Afghan reconstruction
It has been confirmed on Monday that between 120 and 160 Dutch service personnel — primarily members of the air force — will start operations on 1 September if the Lower House of Parliament, Tweede Kamer, gives the green light. The Dutch are expected to be stationed in the Afghan province Baghlan. In total, an extra 3,500 Nato troops from various countries — to be spread between five teams — are being deployed in the central Asian country as Nato expands its security and reconstruction mission in Afghanistan. The main task of the troops will be to help secure the Afghan elections, scheduled to occur in September this year. About 6,500 Nato troops are presently involved in security operations in the capital Kabul and the city of Kunduz, alongside US troops involved in operation Enduring Freedom. The Nato alliance had promised to expand its area of operations to the north and west of Afghanistan, but it has proven difficult in recent months to gather sufficient troop numbers. The UK, Germany, Norway, Finland, Romania and Denmark will also be involved in the expansion of operations, which will see the Nato alliance involved in security operations across 190,000sq km of Afghanistan’s total area of 647,500sq km.
Posted by: Seafarious || 06/29/2004 12:36:28 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  NATO in general and France/Germany have been getting bad press about their resistance to leaving Kabul on PRT duty, anyone know whether that complaint is accurate or rhetoric?
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:06 Comments || Top||


Dutch FM applauds early transfer of power to Iraqis
As Nato agreed at a three-day summit in Istanbul to help train Iraqi’s armed forces, Dutch Foreign Affairs Minister Ben Bot backed the earlier- than-planned transfer of power to the Iraqis on Monday. A spokesman for the minister — who was attending the summit with Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende — said the early handover of power was wise given the violence witnessed across Iraq in recent days, news agency ANP reported. He also said the fact that US President George Bush announced the transfer of power at the summit indicated that all Nato member states except the French, of course are united and serious about the transfer of power in the lead up to democratic elections in Iraq, scheduled for January 2005. Dutch MPs approved an eight-month extension of the nation’s peacekeeping mission in Iraq last week and the first deployment of replacement troops was departing from Eindhoven on Monday.
Posted by: Seafarious || 06/29/2004 12:31:16 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Thank you, Netherlands
Posted by: Michael || 06/29/2004 14:04 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
U.S. expels 2 Iranians at U.N.
Posted by: Lux || 06/29/2004 11:43 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Do the Revolutionary Guards handle Mission security?
Posted by: Classical_Liberal || 06/29/2004 12:03 Comments || Top||

#2  bet they did this time. It can't just be about taking pictures of NY monuments, otherwise every tourist would be arrested. There's gotta be more to this story
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 12:14 Comments || Top||

#3  about time - this has only been going on for over 20 years..

Posted by: Dan || 06/29/2004 12:19 Comments || Top||

#4  Since 1979 Iran has been promoting global jihad.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 14:21 Comments || Top||

#5  Mark this one down folks, it's going to be cited as causus belli if there's an attack anywhere on the eastern seaboard before the election.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/29/2004 18:04 Comments || Top||

#6  Tunnel entrances and subway layouts are definitely big tourist attractions. Everybody knows this.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 20:43 Comments || Top||

#7  I love you guys. That is all. As you were.
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/29/2004 21:20 Comments || Top||


WND: U.S. Customs officers to examine Pakis for injuries
EFL
In an unusual move, U.S. Customs and Border Protection has ordered inspectors at America’s largest airports to examine all travelers of Pakistani descent – including U.S. citizens – for minor injuries such as "rope burns," "unusual bruises" and "scars" possibly suffered while training in terrorist camps in that ally Muslim country, according to internal U.S. documents obtained exclusively by WorldNetDaily. A two-page "action" bulletin, labeled "For Official Use Only," warns that recent intelligence gathered in Pakistan and elsewhere indicates that individuals traveling to train at terrorist camps in Pakistan may be planning to carry out terrorist activities within the United States between now and the presidential election in November.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 4:04:34 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Nice of WND to spill these details, making it less likely that the directive will pay off.

Idiots.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 11:14 Comments || Top||

#2  If they don't have any, do they give them some?
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 11:15 Comments || Top||

#3  They should be particularly wary of anything that looks like a fuse protruding from their rectum.
Posted by: rich woods || 06/29/2004 13:24 Comments || Top||

#4  Will this include Musharraf's brother, a doctor in Oak Brook, Ill.?
Posted by: Michael || 06/29/2004 14:09 Comments || Top||


Supreme Court rulings "a modest victory" for the presidency -- WSJ
EFL.
The instant reading of yesterday’s Supreme Court rulings on terror suspects is that they were, as the Associated Press asserted, "a setback to the Bush Administration’s war against terrorism."
In certain segments of the press, a warm sunny day with not a cloud in the sky would be reported as "a defeat in the Bush ’war’ on ’terror.’"
After reading the opinions, we’d say it’s more accurate to call them a modest but important victory for the Presidency. The Court’s three rulings will surely complicate U.S. detention policy, at least at the margins. But at the same time they uphold the longstanding and proper deference that the Supreme Court has shown throughout its history to the executive branch on national security, especially in wartime. . . .

Most important, the Court upheld the authority of the Commander-in-Chief to detain enemy combatants, including U.S. citizens. That’s the key finding of Hamdi, and the implicit basis of Padilla, which the Court threw back to the lower courts on jurisdictional grounds.

It’s true that in its Guantanamo ruling--Rasul v. Bush--the Court has opened the door to a flood of litigation by ruling that both U.S. citizens and foreigners detained as terrorists can challenge their treatment in the federal courts. This pretty much guarantees that the 600 or so Guantanamo detainees will bring 600 or so habeas corpus cases--perhaps in 600 or so different courtrooms, with 600 or so different judges demanding 600 or so different standards of what evidence constitutes a threat to the United States. Justice Antonin Scalia’s dissent shreds the majority’s messy reasoning.

But the solution here is for Congress to step in with legislation consolidating all of the Gitmo cases in a single court. Arlington, Virginia would be a good choice, as that’s where the detainees’ ultimate warder, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, is located. It also has the advantage of being located in the jurisdiction of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, which has already examined these issues in a serious way. At the same time, however, yesterday’s Hamdi decision suggests that the courts must give considerable deference to the executive in handling these habeas petitions. While Hamdi concerned a U.S. citizen-detainee, it isn’t likely that the non-citizens at Gitmo can expect more favorable treatment. And anyone who reads Justice Sandra Day O’Connor’s plurality opinion can only conclude that Yaser Esam Hamdi--or anyone else--is unlikely to be sprung from detention anytime soon. . . .

. . . the burden is on the petitioner in these cases to prove that the government’s designation is wrong. Just to be sure the ACLU gets the point, Justice O’Connor added that "the full protections that accompany challenges to detentions in other settings may prove unworkable and inappropriate in the enemy-combatant setting."

Even more striking, Justice O’Connor all but invited the Administration to set up a military court to hear Hamdi’s plea. That suggestion goes a bridge farther than even President Bush has dared. His controversial 2001 order establishing military tribunals to try enemy combatants specifically excluded U.S. citizens even though there is ample legal precedent for their use. The Court’s ruling is also an implicit suggestion that the military is capable of adequately reviewing challenges brought by the Gitmo prisoners.

All in all, the Court stepped away from the chaos of making judges the arbiters of American security. That’s a welcome victory for the Presidency, no matter who wins in November.
Posted by: Mike || 06/29/2004 5:44:13 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I guess I prefer a half a glass to none.

It would be better still if lawyers were barred from litigating matters of national security if the issue is concurrent or ongoing. It was clear, I thought, in the inital going (after 911 )that enemy combatants' issues as they relate to those people's rights were endorsed by the court some time ago. This issue should have been a static one, one where a lawyer trying to litigate a matter relating to enemy combatants would be rejected as a matter of law.

If civil libertarians want to affect national security policy (and they do want to, IMHO, in order to wreck national security ) they should be held to doing so in time of peace, not in time of war. There is too much at stake to allow this continual chipping away at our security.

I know there will be howls from the more liberal side of Rantburg, so I would also like to point out that the only issue this post is about is allowing lawyers to litigate in a matter of national security in time of war which was settled long ago.
Posted by: badanov || 06/29/2004 9:05 Comments || Top||

#2  I watched O'Reilly last night interviewing a lawyer and a judge about the Supreme Court decision and basically they said this all could have been avoided if the President and Congress had made a formal declaration of war. So even though everyone knows we are at war, war was never formally and legally declared.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 11:54 Comments || Top||

#3  A little legalism, if you please?

Just who are we s'posed to declare war against? A declaration of war is traditionally a declaration against a government. We were not attacked by a government, if you will recall 911.

If SCOTUS wants their decisions to be remembered as helpful in the War on Terrorism, they will dispense with their 70s outlook and take a hard look at what happened in 2001 and the best way to conduct this war, to call it what it is.
Posted by: badanov || 06/29/2004 11:58 Comments || Top||

#4  I am sticking with my original suggestion: As we capture them, SHOOT THEM. No gitmo, Brig, ACLU, an we are on sound legal footing to do this. It also has the beauty of eliminating any further legal wrangling and reduces and unnecessary cost associated with detaining them at gitmo or any other facility. Also IF we had left these bad guys in Afghanistan they would already be enjoying Allah’s company (or the Devils in most cases).
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 06/29/2004 11:59 Comments || Top||

#5  I agree with you, #4. There is no benefit to capturing enemies anymore. They should let all those detainees go now because they will all be let go in the future, but at greater cost to you and me. It makes to crazy to know that all those scuzballs at Gitzmo will have access to legal counsel on the taxpayers' dime and they now have the right to SUE us, too, for wrongful detention. At this very minute lawyers from the ACLU are busting their ankles to sign up to defend these creeps, who would kill them in a heartbeat if they were not in cells.

Correct, #3. It would have been be difficult to have formally declared war unless our politicians had the courage to name the enemy as radical Islam. The closest that GWB came was to call the enemy "evil doers" and Congress...I don't know if any of those guys have...too busy with the golf games and meetings with their stock brokers.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 12:18 Comments || Top||

#6  CS and rex:

I think most would agree that killing terrorists on the battlefield is the solution, because captured prisoners WILL be let out -- either early (due to "human rights" pressure), or late (after things die down for a year or two), and the prisoners WILL still present the same threat.

However, the story of executing captured prisoners WILL get out, and it will be even worse than the Abu Ghraib hubbub.

So, the only real solution as I see it is increased battlefield lethality (especially, *pinpoint* lethality, i.e. dropping FAEs on a village to take out a couple of terrorists is not the way to go).

So, the emphasis we have seen in the past year or so on increased sniper training and development of more varieties of smart weapons is exactly the right approach for us as a society.

Posted by: Carl in N.H || 06/29/2004 12:44 Comments || Top||

#7  Well it is clear to me our country's legal system, lawyers and civil libertarians would rather see 3,000 dead Americans than one live detained Muslim.

Oh well, back to Predators, Hellfires and battlefield interdiction.

Prisoners will be treated humanely, if our field spooks take them. But as they must know, it is now far better to disappear these terrorists and forgo an iterrogation with lawyers crawling up your ass than to hold out hope for 'actionable' intel with the interrogation tools they have imposed on them now.
Posted by: badanov || 06/29/2004 13:00 Comments || Top||

#8  Hold on, #6, I did not say EXECUTE the Gitmo prisoners. You are right , that would be stupid. I said LET THEM GO. And letting them go could involve transporting them to a deserted island somewhere in the Pacific or to the Antarctic, far far away from the US mainland would be fine by me.

Actually, I always wondered if we taxpayers were expected to pick up the tab indefinitely for feeding and sheltering these pondscum. So now this court decision just forces the WH to put some closure on this ridiculous PC-compassionate taxpayer supported camping experience. We squeezed out all the intelligence we will ever get from these losers one and half years ago, let's face it. If the ACLU wants to give these scuzballs legal counsel, they can hike their lawwwyyyer butts to the deserted island to do so...he, he ...we might also thin the lawwwyyyerr herd, too, with this idea, which would be fine by me.

You are right #6 about new terrorists we meet on the battlefield. Take no prisoners should be the bottom line.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 13:01 Comments || Top||

#9  As the article says, in part, it's really not that hard to work around the Hamdi decision:
1. Pass a statute forcing venue in all of the Gitmo litigation into one district court.
2. Suspend the writ of habeas with respect to Gitmo. The Constitution specifically allows for this--Lincoln did it during the Civil War.
Posted by: Mike || 06/29/2004 13:22 Comments || Top||

#10  Ooops: I meant "Rasul decision" when I said "Hamadi decision."
Posted by: Mike || 06/29/2004 13:38 Comments || Top||

#11  These people are not prisoners of war but unlawful combatants. They could also be legally called “spies” or “saboteurs” because they were not wearing any uniform but were caught with arms in a combat zone. Because they were found on the filed of battle with weapons and not uniform they can be summarily executed IAW the rules of war. I would hope that they would broadcast these executions over the three Arab networks so that the ‘Jihadis-in-waiting’ would think twice about taking up arms. This would all be done after a ‘swift‘ Military tribunal for the accused (no more than ten minutes). I wonder if a military court would understand the UK Jihadis explanation that he was seeking a wife and took a wrong turn? We are too nice to these terrorists. FYI I still say they are only still breathing air because we removed them from Afghanistan/Iraq. Maybe we could hand them back over to them and see what President Karzai wants to do with them? Or what are the Iraqi plans for dealing with foreign insurgents?
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 06/29/2004 14:35 Comments || Top||

#12  Cyber Sarge, I was watching a program about post war Germany on History Channel last night. The US military executed those who did not follow the riles and certainly executed any who took up arms against us after the cessation of hostilities. This was done to send a message. There were also reprisal killings and summary executions conducted by US and allied forces. We were in a war then and we are in one now. The difference as Wretchard has noted, is then we had been at open war for 5+ years. Our sympathy for the enemy was at near zero. We are not in that position today...yet. RB'ers might be, but the general populace is not.
Posted by: remote man || 06/29/2004 15:16 Comments || Top||

#13  RM: AMEN BROTHER! Finally some gets it! Only when we grow tired of hearing about supposed legal rights and watching our countrymen cut up like animals will the public call for some action. Execution cures the infection of dissent very quick. And whomever believes that these animals are motivated by Abu Grabass has been litening to too much Al Jiz or works for the DNC.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 06/29/2004 15:53 Comments || Top||

#14  Congress, if it is truly committed to winning the WOT can over rule the Supreme Court decision. It's Congress's right to do so, with a simple majority vote. Anyone holding their breath for Congress to show some inner courage should have an oxygen tank on hand.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20040522-102507-1868r.htm
"Override the Supreme Court?" By Arnold Beichman , Washington Times, May 23, 2004
[Fyi, Arnold Beichman, a Hoover Institution research fellow, is author of "Anti-American Myths: Their Causes and Consequences"]
...By a simple majority vote in both Houses, Congress under Article III, Section 2, can curtail the Supreme Court's appellate jurisdiction...This is the language of the Constitution: "The Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and to fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make."...Here is a list of other congressional powers over the Supreme Court as enacted by the Founding Fathers:[5 listed]
#3-Congress has the power to define the jurisdiction of the lower federal courts because the Constitution grants Congress the right "to ordain and establish such courts." Nowhere in the Constitution, directly or implicitly, are federal judges granted the right to manage schools, hospitals, prisons and other institutions...The distinguished legal scholar the late Professor Herbert Wechsler has said, "Congress has the power by enactment of a statute to strike at what it deems judicial excess." And yet Congress has rarely acted on its undoubted privilege..."With all these powers over the courts granted by the Constitution to House and Senate, why do our 535 representatives sit on their hands? I have an answer: The U.S. Supreme Court and the lower courts, state and federal, have gotten away with their power grab because of simple cowardice on the part of the Congress in exercising its constitutional power over the Supreme Court. In this era of judicial supremacy, it is forgotten the Founding Fathers made Congress — not the president, not the Supreme Court — the ultimate power. It is no accident that Article I of the Constitution is Congress, Article II, the presidency and last, Article III, the Supreme Court...

I'm going to send this article to Bill O'Reilly as a suggestion for a topic to be discussed on his TV show. Maybe all of us should send this article to our elected representatives to remind them that they should stop blaming the Supreme Court for legislating from the bench. Congress should start properly representing the authority of the common people to over ride the Supreme Court when decisions are not good for our nation, and this Gitmo prisoner/detainee decision clearly is not in the best interests of national security. Duh. .



Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 16:24 Comments || Top||

#15  The 5th column legal beagles will only stop when public outrage silences them. We are fighting this war with one hand tied behind our backs and getting it from the front and the rear. The question that keeps coming back is whether it will take some more 9-11 type hits on us to turn the public around. This is just like pre ww-2 in the 30s.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 16:27 Comments || Top||

#16  (Don't bag on beagles. Mine is a loyal 'merkin. :) )
Posted by: eLarson || 06/29/2004 19:23 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Philippines arrest bomb plotters
Police in the Philippines have arrested at least four men alleged to have been plotting to bomb President Gloria Arroyo's inauguration on Wednesday.
The men, all Filipino Muslims, were arrested in Manila and found with bomb-making materials, police said.
Tap, tap...nope

Police said they were investigating whether the men belonged to Asian militant Muslim group Jemaah Islamiah. Manila was already on alert for the inauguration, in case of violence from supporters of the losing candidate.
Police said the arrested men were detained in the suburb of Taguig City, and that bottles of ammonium nitrate, explosives and bomb making materials were also found. Manila police chief Pedro Bulaong said a notebook found in the raid referred to a camp in the southern Philippines where Jemaah Islamiah (JI) is alleged to have operations. JI, which has been linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda, has been blamed for bombings and other attacks across South East Asia, including the 2002 Bali bombings.
Philippines Defence Secretary Eduardo Ermita said last week that more than 40 JI members were believed to be hiding in the south of the country. Mr Bulaong said the bombers planned to target Manila's Rizal Park, where Mrs Arroyo is due to make a speech on Wednesday. She is due to be sworn in later in the day in the central city of Cebu. A police statement said the men were part of a larger group that had come to Manila from the southern island of Mindanao, and their plan had been to set off bombs and disrupt the inauguration.
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 9:03:13 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Philippines arrests 4 hard boyz
Philippine security forces arrested several suspected Muslim militants who were planning bomb attacks to disrupt the inauguration of President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo, police and military officials said on Tuesday.

The arrests come as security forces boost their presence in the capital to guard against threats to Wednesday’s ceremonies and to control protest marches planned later on Tuesday by opposition groups who say Arroyo cheated in May 10 elections.

"We got them with the PNP," a military intelligence official who took part in the operation told reporters, referring to the Philippine National Police.

Four men were presented to media in the afternoon. The police initially said they had information the suspects were members of the Jemaah Islamiah militant network, but later said they were still investigating the link.

"We still have to evaluate," said PNP spokesman Joel Goltiao.

Police said in a statement the men were in a group of about 30 suspected militants who had arrived in Manila two days ago from southern Mindanao island with the aim of setting off bombs on Wednesday to disrupt Arroyo’s inauguration.

The arrests came a day after the United States gave the Philippines an extra $4 million to boost intelligence-gathering against al-Qaeda-linked militant groups.

Security forces in Manila are on alert after a group suspected of links to the political opposition planted three explosive devices last week, adding to security headaches surrounding Arroyo’s inauguration.

Police used batons, teargas and water cannon on Tuesday to disperse several thousand opposition supporters protesting Arroyo’s victory over film star Fernando Poe Jr.

The military official said the suspects were arrested in Taguig in east Manila, but gave no further details. Troops also recovered five kg (11 lb) of explosives, four petrol bombs, and a notebook containing bomb-making diagrams, he said.

On Sunday, U.S. Pacific Command head Admiral Thomas Fargo said the United States remained concerned by the presence in the Philippines of Jemaah Islamiah members.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/29/2004 8:45:33 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Arrests foil southernThailand bomb plot: police
Authorities claim to have foiled a bomb plot to kill several public officials in the far South following yesterday’s arrest of five suspected Muslims insurgents in a joint pre-dawn raid by the military and police. Several items were seized from a rented house in Yala’s Muang district where the suspects were living, Defence Minister Chettha Thanajaro told a press conference at an Army camp in Pattani yesterday. The house is located about 200 metres away from an Islamic missionary centre.More than 100 officers were involved in the raid, which started at 5am. Among the seized items was a list of names of more than 30 local police and military officers believed to be targets for attacks and a detailed diagram of Yala’s football stadium, where Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra presided over the inauguration of the Thaksin League on Sunday, Chettha said. Other items seized include maps of Yala and Songkhla’s inner areas and business districts, documents speaking of "liberating the Pattani state", and a scrap of paper containing what is believed to be instructions for a bombing, he said.

It is believed the suspects were involved in a number of recent bombings in the southern-border provinces and were plotting more attacks in the region, the defence minister said.
The male suspects, aged between 19 and 24, were identified as Ismail Salae, Ismail Sa-i, Muhammad Sofian Manosa, Arafat Yunu, and Hanipo Mama. They are residents of Pattani, Songkhla and Narathiwat. Lt-General Pisarn Watta-nawongkiri, commander of the Fourth Army Region, told reporters at yesterday’s press conference that the military would refer to martial law in dealing with the five suspects. He said they would be interrogated and detained at an Army camp in Pattani. He warned those involved in attacks in the region to surrender by July 11 or face arrests by the military, which has been empowered to conduct searches and make arrests under martial law.

The five suspects were also present at yesterday’s press conference but they were not allowed to speak to reporters. In Yala, a number of police officers whose names appeared on the list seized during yesterday’s raid, said they were startled to learn that they had become "targets". Captain Prasom Kuanoon, of Yala’s Muang district police station, said he had already taken safety precautions, such as looking under his car to see if a bomb had been planted, following attacks on public officials. Captain Jin Wannaboon, of the same police station, said he would be more careful now that he was one of the targets. Earlier in the day, Pisarn travelled by helicopter to a hospital in Narathiwat to visit six Marines injured in Sunday’s explosion at a football field near a Buddhist temple in the border province. One Marine was killed in the attack.

Meanwhile, Ahmed Somboon Bualuang, an independent Muslim academic, said yesterday it appeared that perpetrators of violence in the deep South were inspired by Iraqi resistance groups which staged almost daily attacks on US-led security forces and civilians with American connections. He expressed concern that deep-South violence would continue to heighten if the government failed to tackle the problem at its root causes. The academic called on the government to urgently review its policy of taking a hard-line stance in the region.
"The best way out is to tackle the problem peacefully. This is agreed and preferred by most of the residents in the area," he said.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 06/29/2004 2:13:29 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Jihadis shoot teacher and eight year old student in Thailand
A school in Narathiwat’s Tak Bai district will reopen tomorrow after security forces pledged to boost safety measures following a suspected terror attack on Friday in which a teacher and an eight-year-old girl sustained multiple gunshot wounds. "Kok Kradookmu School had suspended its classes from Monday to Wednesday and will reopen when safety measures are improved," said Narathiwat education office director Pairat Saengthong. Teachers and students are demoralised by the spiral of violence, Pairat said. Security forces are to be deployed at every school in the entire province, he said. Soldiers and policemen are to be on duty at all school functions, including extra-curricular activities, he added.
Education Minister Adisai Bodharamik said he was coordinating with the military and Interior Ministry to boost safety at schools in the South. "It is a worrying trend that |militants have targeted teachers and students for terror attacks. I am working with relevant security agencies in order to solve the problem," he said. Adisai said monthly allowances for teachers in the three southernmost provinces would increase from Bt1,000 to Bt2,500 in view of the violence. The Basic Education Commission has, meanwhile, instructed schools in the South to evaluate safety threats. The school safety reports will be used to map out anti-terrorism measures.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 06/29/2004 1:35:58 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I forgot to add that there are two stories at this link, this one is the second, towards the bottom of the page.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 06/29/2004 2:05 Comments || Top||


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
UN clears Iran nuclear facility
Why am I not surprised?

Tuesday, 29 June, 2004, 16:07 GMT 17:07 UK

The head of the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency has said Russia’s nuclear co-operation with Iran is no longer a matter of concern. After talks involving suitcases of cash in Moscow with President Vladimir Putin, Mohamed ElBaradei said Russia’s construction of Iran’s first nuclear reactor was not even discussed.
ElBaradei’s complaisance bubbles to the surface yet again.
He denied US claims that the Bushehr reactor could be used to make weapons.
"The Yanks have got these perfectly splendid mullah chaps all wrong, I tell you!"
The statement came after IAEA experts visited another site where the US says Iran worked on nuclear arms. "Bushehr is not apparently at the centre of my international concern," Mr ElBaradei told reporters on Tuesday. The IAEA chief said the reactor was aimed at producing nuclear energy only, and there was an agreement to return spent fuel to Russia.
And we all know what Iranian agreements are worth.
"It is not something that is of any concern on our part," he added. Mr Elbaradei said the reactor was not even mentioned in the hour-long meeting he had with President Putin.
Too busy counting his money, I guess.
The US - which says Iran has been running a secret nuclear weapons programme - has put pressure on Russia not to go ahead with the reactor in southern Iran. Tehran says its nuclear programme is designed solely to provide energy.
They decline to specify whether that energy is for steady or burst release.
Construction on the Bushehr reactor began in 2002, despite strong US objections. Moscow denies any suggestion that Tehran could make a bomb on the basis of the nuclear technology it is making available.
And Moscow is out of reach for Iranian missiles. What a coincidence!
The reactor is due to become rubble operational in 2005.

Satisfaction

Mr Elbaradei also said that Iran had provided details about another site at the centre of American allegations.
Which he just as quickly promised to ignore.
He said Iranian officials had told an IAEA team that the Lavizan site in Tehran was initially used for military research - but not nuclear weapons as the US suspects - before it was razed.

"The Iranians said it was a former research and development military site and was used as a physics institute, later for bio-technology weapons research," Mr ElBaradei said.

The Americans say the site has been completely dismantled and the topsoil removed in the past year, to try to hide evidence of nuclear activity. Iranian officials say the site was razed to make way for a park.
And some baby ducklings and some rabbits ... I get to pet the rabbits, huh, George?
International inspectors visited the site on Monday. Mr ElBaradei expressed satisfaction with Iran’s co-operation with the inspectors - less than two weeks after his agency criticised Iran.
Makes sense. An Arabic figurehead who can’t even find a covert nuclear weapons program on his own native country’s home soil and cannot manage to find one on another Islamic brother nation’s turf either. I’m shocked! Shocked, I say!
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 3:12:05 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Saddam's WMD's are in Syria
More palace intrigue, salt to taste, EEFL:

Perhaps more worrisome, there are indications these weapons are not under the control of Syrian President Bashar Assad. Rather, in a potentially catastrophic palace intrigue, his sister, Bushra, and her husband, Gen. Assaf Shawkat, the No. 2 in Syria's military intelligence organization, the Mukhabarat, are said to have made the storage arrangements with Saddam as part of a bid for power.
Gal Luft, a former analyst for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, confirmed Iraqi WMDs are hidden in Syria, but not by the regime. "Certain individuals are taking money and hiding weapons," he told UPI on Feb. 7, 2003, but this is "not government-sanctioned."
Judith Yaphe, a former senior CIA Middle East analyst, agreed, suggesting the WMD smuggling operation is "palace intrigue." She said in the same UPI report that Bashar Assad's sister, Bushra, "is the brains. She's much smarter and more effective than Bashar, and she was disappointed at being passed over and not seeing her husband elevated."
Hummmm, Bashar did just purge his military. And nobody schemes like a woman who feels she's been wronged. Interesting.
Posted by: doc || 06/29/2004 10:36 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Much has been written about WMD sent to Syria.Some stories even talk of Syria sending WMD to Sudan.Assad must know of these arrangements.So no one in Syria is off the hook yet.
Posted by: rich woods || 06/29/2004 13:08 Comments || Top||

#2  sister, Bushra, and her husband, Gen. Assaf Shawkat

Please no making fun of their names.
Be nice to the nice.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/29/2004 13:18 Comments || Top||

#3  And nobody schemes like a woman who feels she's been wronged.

Just talk to any man who's been through a rough divorce; they'll tell you...
Posted by: Raj || 06/29/2004 13:43 Comments || Top||

#4  In this case, does Bushra = Hitler?
Posted by: Tibor || 06/29/2004 13:48 Comments || Top||

#5  In fascist states, you don't have to be smart, just vicious.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 14:26 Comments || Top||

#6  Any way of getting this page to moveon.org? They are still peddling the "there were no WMDs in Iraq" line...
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 15:16 Comments || Top||

#7  Jules,

It wouldn't help. 'There is no one so blind as he who will not see.'

They are True Believers over there.
Posted by: eLarson || 06/29/2004 19:18 Comments || Top||

#8  I've been telling you guys where to look since before the war.

The Mukhabarat have too free a hand - Bashar is not his old man - and has not gotten a firm grip on the riens there. He's the wrong guy to take over as a strong man.

Look at the main road from Baghdad and the Tikrit region. Look where it goes in Syria. Look at the terrain there. Look how close it is to mountains, valley and some very good place to hide truck trailers, barrels, and other things. I cannot say anything more.
Posted by: OldSpook || 06/29/2004 22:41 Comments || Top||

#9  If I were the king of the forest, I would now await some more Syrian mischief in Fallujah. One of the options of a newly sovereign nation would be to declare war and invade a small portion of Syria as a reprisal.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 22:46 Comments || Top||


Iran nuclear spill cover-up feared
Now you can glow in the dark whilst skate-boarding at Iran's newest airport! Follow-up and more detail on a story we covered before.
Western intelligence officials believe Iran's Revolutionary Guards tried to cover up a nuclear accident triggered when weapons-grade uranium was being shipped from North Korea. The accident allegedly caused Tehran's new international airport to be sealed off by Revolutionary Guard commanders within hours of its official opening on May 9.

The first scheduled commercial landing at the airport - an Iran Air civilian flight from Dubai - was intercepted by two Iranian air force jets and diverted to Isfahan, about 300 kilometres away, even though it was low on fuel. At the same time, trucks blocked the runway to prevent other landings.

Seven weeks later, the showpiece airport, named after Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the 1979 Iranian revolution, is still closed. All commercial flights have to use the capital's ageing Mehrabad complex.

At the time of the incident, Revolutionary Guard commanders claimed that Khomeini airport had been closed because of "security problems". But Iranian aviation officials believe that Tehran wanted to cover up evidence of the previously unreported nuclear accident in 2002, linked to Iran's secret program to build an atom bomb. Although the airport, 75 kilometres south of Tehran, was not ready for commercial traffic until this spring, military flights have used it for at least two years. In December 2002, according to officials with access to the airport, a North Korean cargo jet delivering nuclear technology, including some weapons-grade uranium, was being unloaded at night under military supervision.
Too bad the jet didn't encounter unexpected turbulence.
A container slipped and cracked on the tarmac, and everyone in the area was taken away for thorough medical examinations. Crews from the Atomic Energy Organisation of Iran, wearing protective suits, were brought in to clean up the spillage.

The airport will remain closed until Russian nuclear experts can examine the site of the incident. The scientists worked there for several days, staying indoors during daylight and working only in darkness.
Clearly Iran has dealt with the vampire problem.
Once the area was decontaminated, Revolutionary Guards allowed airport construction to resume, confident that they had concealed the incident from the outside world. But things changed after inspectors working for the UN-backed International Atomic Energy Agency uncovered evidence in June 2003 that Iran had secretly enriched uranium to weapons grade at the Kalaye electric centrifuge plant, on the outskirts of Tehran. Iran had previously denied having the necessary technology.

A senior Western intelligence official said: "We are aware of the concerns being expressed by Iranian aviation experts, and are trying to investigate them. The problem is that the Revolutionary Guards will not allow access to the airport to any foreign nationals, including UN inspectors."
Posted by: Steve White || 06/29/2004 2:16:02 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  How has their economy been able to weather the contamination of this vital hub of commerce?
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:37 Comments || Top||

#2  Anyone else see a problem with this? NK weapons grade material and Russian nuclear experts verifying if its safe? Slight conflict of interest here on Russia's part if true.
Posted by: Valentine || 06/29/2004 4:27 Comments || Top||

#3  I can't see this happening, even the Norks would be able to build a container that could take a short drop like this. They'd be using a russian cargo jet with a ramp low to the ground, and with a precious cargo like this the container would be of quality manufacture. Plus they say it's "weapons grade" uranium, so we're talking about very small ammounts here. It doesn't pass the smell test. Now, if we're talking about a chemical or bio weapon, that's different.
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 8:42 Comments || Top||

#4  Steve -
Just a thought on your comment about the containers: even the Norks could build one, but - containers for this sort of thing that have been used for a long time tend to get brittle.
With that in mind I've been wondering how long that container might have been in use...and for that matter, where...

Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski || 06/29/2004 10:05 Comments || Top||

#5  Iran nuclear spill cover-up feared

Feared? By whom?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 12:26 Comments || Top||

#6  Feared? By whom? By the sponsors of the 2006 Summer X-games in Terahn. It's hard to hold the skateboarding competition when the skateboards keep melting.
Posted by: Charles || 06/29/2004 17:50 Comments || Top||


Iranian government out of the loop on nuclear policy
I think we guessed that...
The official spokesman for Iran’s reformist government admitted Monday that the cabinet was effectively out of the loop on nuclear policy-making, a domain now in the hands of rising conservative forces. In his first press conference for months, Abdollah Ramazanzadeh was pressed for more details on Iran’s decision to resume the manufacture of centrifuges used for enriching uranium, a move that has drawn fresh criticism from the UN nuclear watchdog. The official replied that top conservative cleric and national security official Hassan Rowhani as well as the foreign ministry had already addressed questions on Iran’s ties with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). “Policy decisions on this matter are not in the hands of the government, so I have nothing to say,” said the beleaguered cabinet secretary of embattled reformist President Mohammad Khatami.

He was also questioned why the cabinet had been so silent on a string of other sensitive topics since February’s controversial parliamentary elections, which were easily won by religious hardliners after most reformist candidates were barred from even standing. “I will stay silent,” the spokesman said bluntly. The February polls saw the conservatives cement their grip in the Islamic republic, and left Khatami and some of his cabinet isolated as some of the few reform-minded politicians still in public office. During the electoral crisis, sources close to Ramazanzadeh even said he may resign, but he later denied this. Ramazanzadeh has since taken up an additional post as head of the Iranian Baseball, Cricket and Rugby Federation - and betrayed the obvious fact that he no longer wanted to speak to reporters. “The president ordered me to, so I have to,” he said when asked why he had agreed to resume press briefings. Khatami’s second and final term in office ends in June 2005. Reformists have yet to put forward a potential replacement, in contrast to conservatives who have already fielded several names through the local press.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Rubber stamp, no ink.

They're doin' what their Invisible Buddy tells 'em to, folks. It's psycho preacher time in Tehran.
Posted by: mojo || 06/29/2004 2:40 Comments || Top||

#2  Here are several indicators that the Iranian spokesman might not be in the right occupation:

1. He states, "Policy decisions on this matter are not in the hands of the government, so I have nothing to say."

2. He bluntly says, “I will stay silent." - the silent spokesman is unusual unless he is good at mime, excellent at sign language or has a unuisually expressive face.

3. Ramazanzadeh has since taken up an additional post as head of the Iranian Baseball, Cricket and Rugby Federation - and betrayed the obvious fact that he no longer wanted to speak to reporters.

4. With respect to press conferences, it is highly unusual for the spokesman to point out his reason for attendence as: “The president ordered me to, so I have to,”

Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:32 Comments || Top||

#3  Somehow, knowing that the Black Hatz control nuclear policy drives away that warm and fuzzy feeling that the LLL plants and nurtures about tyrants.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 17:03 Comments || Top||

#4  Ramazanzadeh has since taken up an additional post as head of the Iranian Baseball, Cricket and Rugby Federation - and betrayed the obvious fact that he no longer wanted to speak to reporters.

Anyone ever tell these asshats that baseball, cricket, and rugby are the sports of the infidels/Great Satan?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 18:27 Comments || Top||

#5  The IRG and the Mullahs have been bypassing hte elected government and "Regular" Army for a while.

And its not sitting well with either group (the electorate and the Army).

The seizure of Brit Sailors is a probably case in point: I bet the Mullahs wanted to do that to trade off for theer captured terrorists they sent into Iraq, but the Army was proably left completely out of the loop and the Revolutionary Guards were the ones that did the seizure.
Posted by: OldSpook || 06/29/2004 23:03 Comments || Top||


Al Qaeda trials in Iran could take years: government
Iran’s government said Monday that the Islamic republic may take up to three years to put on trial captured members of the Al Qaeda network held in its jails. Cabinet spokesman Abdollah Ramazanzadeh reiterated Iran’s position that Tehran would only extradite fugitives deemed not to have acted against the state, and from countries with whom Iran has an extradition agreement. “If not, they will go on trial in Iran. However, it is a long process that could take two to three years,” he said. In 2003, Iran confirmed it was holding senior members from Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network, but has refused to identify them. The identity of those still being held has been the subject of intense speculation. Diplomatic sources and Arab press reports have pointed to the possible presence in Iran of the movement’s spokesman, Sulaiman Abu Gaith, and its number three, Saif al-Adel, as well as bin Laden’s son and Al Qaeda heir, Saad. Washington, however, has accused Iran’s clerical regime of harbouring and not arresting members of the network.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Let's see, they have been talking about al Qaeda in their midst since 1991, is that enough time? More Iranian BS.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/29/2004 2:30 Comments || Top||

#2  'Could take years'...what a load of mullah crap.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 2:32 Comments || Top||

#3  Well of course it's going to take years. When a nation like Iran is not averse to the idea of terrorism, doesn't want to look like an unabashed terrorist sponsor (even tho it's widely known that they are), and supposedly has a few in their custody, then a long drawn-out process is the way to go.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 18:31 Comments || Top||

#4  Draw out the time of the Al Q trials.
Speed up the development of Nukes.

Makes perfect sense to me.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 18:41 Comments || Top||


Terror Networks
US expels 2 Iranians; videotaping transportation and monuments in NYC
How many for ’diplomatic’ jihadees are lurking in this City?
The United States has expelled two Iranian security guards at the Iranian Mission to the United Nations for conduct unbecoming to their status, according to a U.S. official. The two were seen taking pictures of New York City and transportation systems, the official said. It was the third occasion that they were spotted videotaping and taking photographs, the official said. The Iranians were expelled this weekend. An official declined to comment on which landmarks the two were seen photographing.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 3:49:55 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  You all should check out Michael Ledeen's article on Iran in National Review Online today.
Posted by: Tibor || 06/29/2004 16:43 Comments || Top||

#2  Thanks Tibor, just read it and posted it here.

In addition to his eye opening comments regarding
Iran's portion of Baluchestan a hotbed of anti-Mullah activities.

This quote from the article is telling of Iran's motives in Iraq:

"Meanwhile, Iraqi authorities have rounded up eight Iranian intelligence officers in Najaf, and one other — a high-ranking officer in the Revolutionary Guards — was caught while attempting to sabotage an oil pipeline." he goes on; As you see, the Iranians are frantically increasing their efforts to drive Coalition forces out of Iraq, to wreck the Iraqi economy — and especially to inflate oil prices, which the mullahs hope will bring down the Bush presidenc

World-Wide crude oil has reversed back to almost $35 a barrel, but if Tehran's 'economic terrorist moles' strike again, targeting Iraq oil installations. Watch for another round of very 'bullish' oil/energy prices, which shall benefit the Iranian despots to further their jihadic platform of terror around the globe, off of their own OPEC oil exports to those in the west still dealing with them.

The Mullahs are using, and have been using crude oil as a weapon against the very countries dependant on their Gulf-based petroleum. One meaningful counter terrorist move is a blockade of ALL Iranian oil exports attempting to exit through the Strait of Hormuz into the Gulf of Oman & beyond to the supertanker seaways.


MAP of Gulf region: http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/gulf_region.gif
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 19:31 Comments || Top||

#3  An official declined to comment on which landmarks the two were seen photographing.

One report said both the Holland and Lincoln tunnels.
Posted by: Pappy || 06/29/2004 23:32 Comments || Top||


FBI probes ’sleeper cell’ possibility
Investigation of ex-Boston cabdriver extends to 9/11

By Stephen Kurkjian and Peter DeMarco, Globe Staff and Globe Correspondent | June 27th, 2004


The Boston office of the FBI is investigating whether a former local cabdriver indicted Friday on charges of lying about ties to a suspected terrorist may have been part of a "sleeper cell" in the Boston area supporting Al Qaeda terrorist activities and whether he may have connections to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in Washington and New York.

Gail Marcinkiewicz, a spokeswoman for the FBI’s Boston office, confirmed that the investigation is taking place, saying, "During terrorism investigations we will always look for connections to all known or suspected terrorists or the events of 9/11."

Although FBI officials in Boston have in the past downplayed the possibility that a sleeper cell was operating in the area, the indictment of Mohamad Kamal Elzahabi, 41, in Minnesota on Friday charging him with lying to the FBI about his ties to a suspected terrorist and shipping communications equipment to Pakistan provides further leads that will be pursued, Marcinkiewicz said.

The top FBI terrorism specialist in Boston said last year that the agency had no concrete evidence of the existence of a sleeper cell in Boston.

"There’s no indication at all that the 9/11 hijackers had any Al Qaeda cell in Boston to support that operation," Tom Powers, an assistant special-agent-in-charge of the FBI’s Boston office, said at the time. "There’s no evidence of any secret cell in Boston, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have small groups of individuals that we’re concerned about."

Elzahabi lived in the Boston area between 1997 and 1999, driving a cab leased from the Boston Cab Co. and living in apartments in Everett. During that period, Elzahabi associated with three other men, also former cabdrivers, who later were alleged to have separate ties to terrorist-related activities.

The alleged misrepresentations that Elzahabi was charged with in Friday’s indictment were made during recent interviews in which Elzahabi told federal agents that he had attended Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan during the 1980s. It was in those camps, according to the indictment, that Elzahabi became acquainted with two of Osama bin Laden’s chief lieutenants: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian believed to be directing attacks against US forces in Iraq, and Abu Zubaydah, a senior Al Qaeda associate who appeared to have been an organizer of the Sept. 11 attacks.

Friday’s indictment detailed Elzahabi’s links to two of the men, Raed Hijazi and Bassam Kanj, whom he said he met at a jihad training camp in Afghanistan in the late 1980s. Yesterday, another friend told the Globe that Elzahabi was also friendly with a third former Boston cabdriver, Nabil Almarabh, and the two men had also fought together against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Almarabh was arrested by federal agents in Detroit less than a week after the attacks of Sept. 11 and, according to a 2002 federal report, had "intended to martyr himself in an attack against the United States."

However, Almarabh was released from prison last January and deported to Syria after federal investigators concluded that they were unable to prove he had engaged in any illegal acts.

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Mashour Masoud, of Everett, said he met both Elzahabi and Almarabh in the late 1990s, while driving a cab at Logan International Airport.

"I know he [Elzahabi] was friends with Nabil. Both were in Afghanistan fighting the Russians in the 1980s," Masoud said.

Elzahabi, Masoud recalled, was quiet and hard-working, and when he left Boston Cab Co. in 1998, Elzahabi asked Masoud if he could lease Masoud’s cab when he wasn’t driving it. Masoud, who drove nights, agreed, and for six months Elzahabi drove Masoud’s cab during the day, handing it back to him at night. They also lived together for five or six months, sharing an apartment above Angelina’s Submarine Sandwich shop in Everett until Elzahabi left the area.

Masoud said he has not seen or heard from Elzahabi since Elzahabi moved out and did not know he had been arrested by the FBI. "I’m surprised. I don’t understand," he said. "Why would he lie to the FBI?" Asked whether he thought Elzahabi could be involved in terrorist activities, Masoud said: "Not really. No."

The possibility that unknown people in Boston were providing support to terrorists, including the 10 who hijacked the two planes out of Logan Airport, has been the subject of much conjecture among law enforcement officials.

However, Powers told the Globe in early 2001, months before the September attacks, that agents were investigating the activities of the two former cabdrivers, Kanj and Hijazi, to see if they had ties to terrorism. Kanj, 35, was killed after leading a militant group in an attack against the Lebanese Army, while Hijazi, 32, was tried in Jordan on charges that he was planning to destroy a hotel filled with Americans and Israelis on New Year’s Eve 2000.

According to the complaint unsealed Friday in US District Court in Minneapolis, Elzahabi lied about the extent of his relationship with Hijazi when the two lived in the Boston area in the late 1990s. When questioned in April by the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force about his friendship with Hijazi, Elzahabi first said that he had seen Hijazi sleeping in a cab but "denied knowing him very well," according to a federal affidavit.

However, the complaint alleged that Elzahabi helped obtain a driver’s license for Hijazi, signing as his sponsor for the application to receive the license and allowing him to use his Everett address for mailing.

An Everett man who was friends with both Elzahabi and Hijazi confirmed in an interview with the Globe in late 2001 that Elzahabi and Hijazi were close. The Everett man, who asked not to be identified, said that Elzahabi had taken a used mattress from his apartment in Everett and brought it to Hijazi’s apartment in Malden.

The Everett man said that Elzahabi also had become friends with Kanj when both were fighting against the Soviets in Afghanistan and continued their friendship in Boston. When Elzahabi sought medical treatment for a wound to his abdomen that he had received in Afghanistan, Kanj directed him to an Egyptian doctor who was practicing in New Hampshire.

Elzahabi, who has been in federal custody since May in New York, is scheduled to be transferred to Minneapolis for his arraignment this week.

Adrianne Appel, a Globe correspondent, contributed to this report.Stephen Kurkjian can be reached at kurkjian@globe.com.

Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 2:45:36 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They also lived together for five or six months, sharing an apartment above Angelina’s Submarine Sandwich shop in Everett until Elzahabi left the area.

About a five minute walk from my parent's house. Everett makes the big time. Beautiful.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 9:24 Comments || Top||

#2  tu3031 - is that near Hancock St. off of Broadway? A buddy of mine rented one of his units on that street to 'Mohammed', who visited us last weekend while we were painting Mohammed's old apartment. Not sure what Mohammed's occupation is / was; will follow up on that when we finish the apartment.
Posted by: Raj || 06/29/2004 13:02 Comments || Top||

#3  Broadway. Couple of streets up from Glendale Square. Good meatballs.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 13:39 Comments || Top||


Allah Made It Obligatory to Terrify the Enemy of Allah
From Al Muhajiroun
.... Allah (swt) made it obligatory ... to prepare and to terrify the enemy of Allah. Whoever says that Islam is free from terrorism or wants to differentiate between Islam and terrorism is committing Al Juhoud and that is Kufr Akbar – and will take them out of the fold of Islam. The one who says ‘we should fight against terrorism’, he is fighting against Islam. We know very well that USA meant no one else by the term ‘terrorists’ but Islam and Muslims and the one who wants to avoid terrorism, is avoiding Islam.

It is known that the USA is the enemy of Islam and Muslims. The fact that it is Dar ul Kufr Asslie, by default it is the enemy of Islam and Muslims. The original rules for any state that is not dar ul Islam nor has a treaty with it is that it is the enemy. There should be no doubt in the minds of any Muslims that the jews and Christians are kafir and the enemy of Islam and Muslims. ....

Whoever denies that the Jews and Christians are kafir, they are kafir. Allah (swt) in this ayah, made the purpose of fighting them because of their kufr, regardless of whether or not they fight us. .... We should fear Allah and stop calling the kuffar our friends. The kuffar of USA and UK are kafir Asslie; they are without any doubt our enemy. We do not fight them, only because of the covenant of security that is binding on us. Allah said, “Terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy” [Anfal: 60]

USA is not only the enemy because they disbelieve in Allah; more than that they are actively fighting against Islam and Muslims. Without any doubt, terrorism against them is obligatory. .... There is no such thing as an ‘innocent’ kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims; do not say ‘innocent’ for the kafir, the most you can say for them is that they are ‘victims’. The Muslim however, is innocent even if he engages to fight and conquer the kafir, because he is fulfilling the shari’ah. ....

Those we fight are those who are male, young and rich (i.e. they are suitable for fighting). They deserve to be fought, whether they fight us or not. .... The women and children as long as they do not actually fight, the elder men, the disabled men, the blind or insane men etc, none of these are fought against as long as they do not themselves fight (like they do today) nor supports the fighting, nor do they do anything that leads to support of the fighting. Nowadays, the women are also fighting (e.g. in Israel) and so ... should be terrorised along with them. ....

Therefore, to use the term ‘innocent’ or ‘civilian’ is not correct because we know that the majority of men are fighters because of their capability to fight. Even children, if they begin to fight they will be fought with the enemy as fighters, the exception only being the babies. Toddlers will never be called fighters and they are the only ones who some fuqaha say that they are innocent, others say no, that they are the children of the kuffar and so are kuffar like them. Ahl Al Sunnah Wal Jama’ah believe that the babies are born on the fitrah and the children of the kuffar are on their way to becoming kafir. Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad believes that the children in general below the age of distinguishing (4-7) are innocent. The sahabah asked the prophet (saw), “When we raided by night, we found amongst the dead many children,” he (saw) said, “they are part of them”

So despite the fact that they are innocent; if they are killed by mistake their account is with Allah .... There is no sin if they are killed by mistake, this is called Al Tatarrus - that if you cannot kill the enemy without to go through them, you kill and you know that Allah will deal with them. ....

If the people in the target are a mix between those who deserved to be killed and some who do not, that does not prevent to fight and kill all of them together. Some people will ask the question, “what about the family of the killed kuffar?” However, it is well known that it is not allowed to feel any sympathy for the kuffar, Allah (swt) says, “Do not feel sorry for the fasiqeen (the Jews).” [EMQ 5: 26] and He (swt) says, “Do not feel sorry for the kafireen.” [EMQ 5: 68] ....

Not only is it obligatory to fight them, it is haram to feel sorry for them when they are killed. It is haram for us to feel sorry for them when Allah sends on them natural disasters, let alone when they are killed deliberately for the sake of Allah. .... Allah made it clear for us, that any calamity that occurs to them will make us satisfied in our hearts and that the kuffar have no karamah (dignity). ....

Muslims readily attack and condemn other Muslims because they commit terrorist acts, yet they do not know that Terrorism is obligatory in Islam against the enemy of Allah. ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 06/29/2004 12:26:59 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Think of it as a disease. The Mother of All Diseases.

It can become extremely virulent within an infected population and is most contagious when present en masse as it then controls its own environment.

It manifests itself most apparently in Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, and Indonesia. It currently seems poised to spread into other Asian and African regions, as well as westward. Free, democratic, and industrialized (i.e. affluent) populations appear to have the greatest degree of natural resistance - as evidenced by visibly lower infection rates in many areas, but this immunity varies across a wide range. It seems that no population is totally immune.

Each locale displays slight variations in the symptoms (e.g. external appearance: facial hair or lack, headwear design, etc.), but the disease process is the same. It activates and attacks children when they first begin to comprehend language and, if allowed to reinforce the initial phase with concentrated ongoing exposure, the host is doomed. This readily occurs in saturated populations - becoming ever more virulent over time for the complete lifecycle of the host. In fact, this agent is so insidious that it threatens death to any host so bold as to contemplate any form of treatment, whether it is through escape from the infected population or any degree of active resistance within.

The disease process begins by destroying individualism, identity, and intellectual curiosity - replacing them with total compliance and acceptance of the authoritarian. The advanced state of the illness commonly expresses itself through repression, brutality, blind hatred, and psychopathic insanity. This occurs when a sufficient number of hosts have been infected. This critical mass - a saturated population, once reached, utterly destroys social tolerance and discourse - and yields a total loss of will, honor and respect for others.

In the most advanced cases, saturated populations have been observed actively killing potential hosts through external means - without bothering to infect them. At this stage, the clinician is likely to find himself bewildered - as it is counterintuitive: this behavior runs counter to all other natural processes; it just makes no sense.

For young children, it has been observed, in the rare cases where it has been possible to do so, that removal from the infected population may halt the process - if done early enough and the child is completely isolated such that they only have contact with naturally immune hosts.

For the mature individual, however, if reared in an infected population - particularly one displaying the characteristics of an advanced stage - there is no known cure. It leaves no aspect, no potential, absolutely nothing of the individual host uncorrupted.

All identified vectors should be aggressively treated without hesitation at the first sign of symptomatic behavior. Total eradication will likely be necessary to check the spread and prevent future outbreaks.

Islam. The only known pathogen with a human fatality rate of 100 percent.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 0:54 Comments || Top||

#2  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by: Anonymous5539 TROLL || 06/29/2004 1:16 Comments || Top||

#3  .com,
Brilliant!
Anybody who has ever lived in a Middle Eastern country and specially in Saudi Arabia understands this analogy only too well!
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/29/2004 1:38 Comments || Top||

#4  How is it related to the topic?

But if you wnt to know... No one.
2 versions...
1. the crucifixion was staged
2. the outcome was predetermined--thus the participants only played their part without any volition.
Posted by: Zarathustra || 06/29/2004 1:40 Comments || Top||

#5  Anonymous5539...If you had a basic understanding of Christian apologetics you would not ask that question and show your bias and ignorance.
Posted by: anymouse || 06/29/2004 1:41 Comments || Top||

#6  That was for Anonymous5539.

Agreed with Anonymous4617.
Posted by: Zarathustra || 06/29/2004 1:42 Comments || Top||

#7  Zarathustra...whatever.
Posted by: anymouse || 06/29/2004 1:42 Comments || Top||

#8  You killed Jesus.
Posted by: Halfass Pete || 06/29/2004 1:55 Comments || Top||

#9  Wow, somebody must have hit a nerve...they only break out the "who killed Jesus" in times of desperation! lol
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 06/29/2004 1:56 Comments || Top||

#10  A4617 - Thx :)

This is the first anniversary of the first time I posted this. I knew there would be an appropriate article for it - every day contains all the proof a non-idiotarian should require - but there it was: first article of the day proclaiming Islam for the pathogen it is. Serendipity.

The first posting wasn't, how shall I say this, "well received" - yeah, that's pretty accurate.

This is a "temperature check" to see how the PC Syndrome is coming along. Is PC-stupidity moderating? Is it getting worse? And looking ahead... Are we going to survive? If so, how many lives will the PC weenies cost us, first? Are we doomed? If so, do we go quietly -- or take a shitload of the assholes with us?

So I was just wondering where we stand, relative to a year ago.

Next year, we can talk about how the Iraqi Civil War, Post-Partitioning of Kurdistan, is going.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 2:18 Comments || Top||

#11  Malignant mutation of a deep-seated (and generally beneficial) meme. Very dangerous.

You go first...
Posted by: mojo || 06/29/2004 2:46 Comments || Top||

#12  "Whoever denies that the Jews and Christians are kafir, they are kafir."

Say Wha? This is like The Life of Brian on some really bad acid. More precisely, it is superstition. The disease of which you spoke of .com

Muslims readily attack and condemn other Muslims because they commit terrorist acts, yet they do not know that Terrorism is obligatory in Islam against the enemy of Allah. ....

A disease indeed, because they cannot see the folly that leads muslims to kill each other, both parties doing it in the name of Allan, for example, shia vs salafi, sunni vs sufi, wahab vs all the above, and any other variation. Atheists follow the same puritanical rage; Theirs is every bit the superstitious belief system as the moslum, filled with bizzare blood-letting ritual, for example, abortion. The greatest danger faced by muslims is islam, and the greatest danger facing American Civilization is Atheism, the right of which to practice, is fully protected by our constitution: trust me, I've been an atheist as many times as I've quit smoking.

None of which is predetermined, in a free country. We do not have the option to pretend that fatalism, pessimism, nihilism, are all to be predetermined upon us, simply because we no longer allow ourselves, by our politically corrected religions, to invest faith in the liberty (our salvation), because we chose instead, to abdicate that responsibility.
Posted by: an dalusian dog || 06/29/2004 2:52 Comments || Top||

#13  MY BUMPER STICKER SAYS"NOBODY BEATS AMERICA:NOBODY!"I'D LIKE THE MUSLIM TERRORIST SHITSTAINS TO READ IT WHILE MY REAR WHEELS ARE GRINDING THEIR FACE INTO HAMBURGER.
Posted by: WhiteHouseDetox || 06/29/2004 2:52 Comments || Top||

#14  "This is the first anniversary of the first time I posted this. I knew there would be an appropriate article for it"

.com, I don't recall seeing it before, but some truths are eternal.

My prediction is that you can schedule the repost for the next 15 years, and you won't miss one single time.
Posted by: Zarathustra || 06/29/2004 2:53 Comments || Top||

#15  Well, this thread deteriorated rather abruptly, now didn't it?

I'd really love to see the blood libel woven through Islam's irrational hatred of the Jews. While interpretation of the Koran may even permit some view of Christ as a recognized Messiah (e.g., people of the book), it remains unlikely that the Crucifixion represents any realistic driving element of jihad.

I only wanted to add that people who publish or publicly avow such incredibly hostile intent (as in the cited article) need to be monitored and prioritized as potential candidates on a "wetwork" roster. It is ridiculous to sit back and blather about either freedom of religion or free speech while other people are openly advocating global cultural genocide. Those who espouse such a doctrine are nothing but another brand of Nazism.

If quelling these delusions of theological predomination requires the formation of covert international espionage teams, so be it. The Arab/Muslim Nazi Connection could not make it more clear that we are merely dealing with a mutation of Reich oriented mentality. That Islam choses to be decentralized and non-nationally aligned, per se, makes it just that much more of a threat. Instigators of global jihad like Abu Hamza need to be put on trial for sedition without delay. I believe it was Rantburg's RKB that recently differentiated so ably about the converse religious elements of "universal intent" as opposed to living within local law. And how universal religious intent could only be avowed by law abiding people. (IIRC)

We now have a political organization's religious extremists instigating global cultural genocide. What's more stunning is how so very few are standing up and taking notice. Any fragment or faction of Islam (or any other religion for that matter), advocating theocratic world domination by force must be exterminated. Rational thinking nations have no time to be bothered with correcting the distorted worldview of those who seek to destroy all cultural diversity.

If Islamists declare global jihad then we must begin killing them wherever we can find them. Deport from America any recent immigrants condoning world domination and then proceed to the great "out-of-doors." If anything, we must begin to penetrate or simply flat-out monitor the content disseminated at domestic public or prayer gatherings held on the property of tax free institutions of any faith and stripe.

Any religion or political thought-form (e.g., communism) that manifestly threatens imposition upon all others of its kind by force is simply untenable. Atheist, Agnostic, Devout, Orthodox, Fundamentalist it matters not, no religion or political mode of any kind may be permitted to attain ascendancy, especially through random coercive atrocities. Nazism and communism were some of the most recent attempts at this sort of brutality and now Islamism is contending for the soiled throne.

May they only die the quicker than ever before.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 3:37 Comments || Top||

#16  Sorry:

to attain ascendancy, especially through random coercive atrocities.

Should read: "... attain ascendancy by force, especially through random coercive atrocities."

Certain memes like free market economy, democracy and elected representation should be permitted to attain ascendancy though voluntary participation and inclusion but this theocratic domination horsesh!t can go directly to Hell, do not pass GO, do not collect $200.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 3:48 Comments || Top||

#17  .com, you just cut and pasted that entire "disease" rant from one of your earlier posts. I remember reading that maybe a year ago.

Kindly rephrase it to mean Islamism is the disease, Moderate Islam is the cure.

Because if you truly believe the entire muslim faith, moderates and all are a disease then that makes you pretty bigotted.

Imagine if, because the Ku Klux Klan are a disease I then said all of Christianity, moderates, protestants, catholics, all were a disease with a mortality rate of 100% because of lynchings.

Analogy fits. Islamism is just the KKK of Islam run amok, in control of countries, training camps and weapons.

Worst of all, you do our side a disservice.

I would rather face an honest enemy without than the enemy within who tears down our side making our job of cultural warfare harder.

alienating allies, forcing neutrals into the enemy camp.. that's what happens when you lump all muslims in the one barrel.

Tell the muslim turks about to be beheaded by Islamists that they are the same religion and fighting on the same side you moron.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 6:07 Comments || Top||

#18  Anon1 - I made that clear in #10. And here we are, still infiltrated by dipshits, gutless apologists, and reality-deniers.

I will post what I think. You are entitled, as long as the West survives idiocy such as the Myth of the Moderate Muslim, to post whatever tripe you wish. Your definitions are of your own design and they ignore the reality that belies your lofty BS. Keep on topic and think, fool. Thank you so much for your opinion. HAND/FOAD.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 6:39 Comments || Top||

#19  yeh you made it clear in #10, and I replied before I read #10. So? I'm one of the few who have been around Rantburg long enough to remember the original.

Post what you think, but it was just as crap then as it is now.

Can't you think up something new to write over the space of a year?

Oh and by the way: moderate muslims are no myth. I happen to know some. One is a woman who doesn't wear a burqa or a hijab and who works as a designer on a magazine.

And what are those MUSLIM turks doing facing a beheading in Iraq right now?

What were those MUSLIMS doing helping the Australian Federal Police find the Bali Bombers?

The facts belie your ignorant position. You came across as young and excitable when you first posted on Rantburg but reading this site doesn't seem to have educated you. You've just become arrogant instead of wise.

You're a bigot pure and simple and your 'support' hurts the very people you pretend to help: the civilised, democratic western world.

BTW: I'm no more off topic than YOU because you posted AGAIN your boring and stupid analogy, so I responded to it.

If that is off-topic then YOU started it!
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 7:21 Comments || Top||

#20  I sympathize - your cupboard is pretty bare when it comes to scraping up examples of the anti-jihadi acts by Muslims. Must be 5 or 6 in that quiver - so you have to economize and use no more that 1 or 2 pathetic examples per post, lest you be guilty of the recycling you seem so upset about.

Yep, it's a repost. I made it clear and explained why I recycled it. And out of the woodwork you popped to prove we are still beset by fools and tools.

Pray-tell, what is your knowledge? You "happen to know some" you say. Lol! Shit, that makes you an expert right up there with Pipes! Well, HELL, Fill Us In! Dazzle us with their anti-jihadi acts? I'm prepared to be all amazed! Lol!

Sigh. You say I'm a bigot. And you, from what you've said, are apparently still the same lazy ill-informed but opinionated lame apologist you were a year ago. At least I actually know WTF I'm talking about, first-hand over years - while you, on the other hand, are the poor soul who must bask in the reflected light of your selected writers. Those whose dribbles and crumbs you have chosen to accept as truth. How pathetic.

When you know something - actually know something about Islam, puhleeze feel free to post it. Thus far, you're just jacking-off as voyeurs are wont to do.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 7:41 Comments || Top||

#21  Anon1 - Is this the same Anon1 from a year ago? Or a pretender. I'll know by where you say you're located...
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 8:06 Comments || Top||

#22  Excellent analogy .com. I'll believe in the myth of moderate Islam when I see true heartfelt apologies or even sympathy for the victims of the Islamists' beastial behavior, which has been on display for all the world to see. And yet no outrage from the"moderate" community.
Until then, I'll take it that since the moongods own book says to kill the likes of me, I'll suppose that's what all muslims believe.
I won't subordinate my own survival instinct to some PC bullshit.
Posted by: JerseyMike || 06/29/2004 8:07 Comments || Top||

#23  JM - Agreed. It's all right there in the posted story - my repost was just giving it a name and classification from a Western POV - so I was a tad suprised that an idiotarian would immediately jump out and get huffy-puffy defensive. Sadly, it confirmed I (we) should be worried that we're not winning the war on PC-ism.

How 'bout next year, when we get to discuss the remarkable progress of Kurdistan - and the equally remarkable bloody hell of Iraq Al Aribiya? Those will be the days, eh? Lol!
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 8:16 Comments || Top||

#24  Some time ago I did a typology of Islam.

The people at this site are, what I called a type 6 Muslim. People that Anon1 would like to be allies are type 1= humanistic and type 2 = secularist muslims. These together are about 20-50% of all muslims. Type 6 muslims are about 0.5% to about 1% of all muslims.

It would be nice to get the type 1 and type 2s on our side (a lot of them are at least partially there). However, this is easier said than done. Among other reasons, the type 1s and 2s are afraid of the type 6s and for good reason.
Posted by: mhw || 06/29/2004 8:21 Comments || Top||

#25  I think the Turks may take a dim view of Kurdistan, Iraq Al Aribiya will be a hell hole no doubt, but more likely be annexed to Iran.
Posted by: JerseyMike || 06/29/2004 8:34 Comments || Top||

#26  Not gonna waste Fred's bandwidth attacking you, have said it all.

Suffice to say I did not need to extensively list every single moderate muslim person to prove my point, the couple of examples suffice to disprove that you can lump all muslims in the Islamist handbasked.

Have extensively argued already WHY it is destructive to our cause in previous posts. I let that stand.

Seems I want actual victory more than you do.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 8:34 Comments || Top||

#27  Seems I want actual victory more than you do.

Being an apologist for lunatics isn't the way to get it done.
Posted by: JerseyMike || 06/29/2004 8:42 Comments || Top||

#28  mhw - If you had solid documentation for the estimates you use, I'd be very impressed. Plus, I would suggest that where you are taking your sample is crucial. If you suggest that world-wide types 1 & 2 comprise as much as 50% (.6 Billion people), I would say you're dreaming. Proximity to concentrations (strongholds of actives) is the key, IMHO. Just as my little piece indicates that the disease reaches critical mass - and then all connected are effectively doomed. It does, indeed, operate like a biological pathogen.

So what does the density / distribution map of Islam look like?

The further away from a concentration a Muslim is, the more passively he / she can act without fear. But the outposts, those enclaves of Muslims who are isolated have been targeted by the Wahhabis (Recall the moskkk takeover story from about a month ago?) as ideal places to put their imams - radicalize these outliers and aggressively recruit to build new centers of power and bases of operation.

Just observations... and a challenge! Maybe you can apply your expertise to the density / distribution idea!
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 8:46 Comments || Top||

#29  JM - #25 - You think Iran will be intact under Mad Mullah Management in a year? Lol! I dunno if that makes you an optimist or a pessimist, but I find that idea highly unlikely!
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 8:54 Comments || Top||

#30  .com, feel a bit bad as you have done a lot for rantburg, but STOP HELPING THE ENEMY by feeding their propaganda machine!!!!

Yes I want actual victory over the Islamofascist.

JerseyMike: I am in NO way an apologist for Islamofascists. I have consistently written that they need to be exterminated by any means necessary. Annihilate Islamofascist mullahs. Drop bombs on their head. Have snipers shoot them. Even 80-year-old mullahs preaching Islamofascist bile from a wheelchair. I want them dead.

But you cannot lump every muslim person in with the Islamofascists.

You know this to be true. Even the most rudimentary brain activity shows this to be so.

If we want to REVERSE the trend towards Islamofascism then we have to play the propaganda / psyops / cultural warfare game.

We have to support the moderate muslim voices at every turn against the fanatics. Yes the Humanist, Secular muslim people! And YES they exist.

God I feel like an idiot typing that! Does anybody bother to type self-evident truths?

SOME muslim people are secular and humanist.

ergo not ALL muslim people are Islamofascist enemies.

Even if there were only 3 muslim people in all the world who were secular humanists, this syllogism would be correct.

For all the IslamoKKK violence in the world, it OBVIOUSLY isn't all muslim people actively DOING it, or even the majority. They might tacitly agree, or not care but that is different to actively strapping on a bomb belt. They can be shifted.

But every time you rubbish the entire muslim religion, and lump every muslim person in that basket you make those people HARDER to shift.

Ain't rocket science people. Whose side are you REALLY on?
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 8:56 Comments || Top||

#31  Ooh! Ooh! New argument/flame war! And I can get in before it really gets going!

No, in all seriousness now, Anon1, I think you said it yourself right here:
For all the IslamoKKK violence in the world, it OBVIOUSLY isn't all muslim people actively DOING it, or even the majority. They might tacitly agree, or not care but that is different to actively strapping on a bomb belt.

I realize, as I'm sure we all do, that there are moderate Muslims. But you see, the problem is that as long as they don't stand up and stop their brethren, then they are giving their endorsement for those actions to be carried out in their name. As long as they stand by in silence while these jihadis kill in the name of Islam, they, part of Islam, will be associated with those acts. I agree that Islam must undergo serious reform, but I agree with .com that in its current state it is something akin to a disease, in the same way that a Hitler or Stalin personality cult is akin to a disease. The optimist in me believes that Islam can make the changes that other religions have made - but the realist/cynic isn't so sure, because some of those changes require a long, hard look at some of what has come to be basic tenets of the religion. I, too, have known one or two moderate Muslims in my time, but unless they get fired up and ready to take back their religion, they will remain in the minority.
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 9:04 Comments || Top||

#32  You say you're done - then post this tired repeated disclaimer.

Okay, Anon1, one more pass:
Read the piece. Really read it. Point out the factual flaws in it. I wrote this after years of first-hand observation - and repeated attempts to convert me. I know what I'm talking about.

As you read it, forget for a second we're talking about a religion. It's about the effects of the disease. It IS a disease. The observations in the piece regards its virulence and actual effects on those afflicted are truthful observations.

If you can figure out how to neutralize its spread, how to uninfect / cure a person indictinated from birth who doesn't even understand the basic underpinnings of the concepts you talk about, or how to take their children away from them (Do this for 2 generations and you can cure ANY social insanity, such as Jooo hatred) then tell us how.

The piece I posted is far less the bigotry you slathered on me than it is a honest description of Islam in action. I am unimpressed with your arguments - and I am sorry to say that. These people are never going to be a help in our fight against their brothers. At the very least, they will be passive support in funding, hiding, and logistics. When it is finished, one way or the other, none of them will be truly innocent. But many truly innocent people will have died. You figure it out.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 9:10 Comments || Top||

#33  That is some good reasoning and logic, Doctor.

Doctor Who?

What do YOU think is the best tactic for US to follow to try to maximise the chances of helping the reformers get control of Islam?
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 9:11 Comments || Top||

#34  .com: you have years of first hand observation that ALL muslims are Islamofascists.

Oh you MUST be right then! Silly me!

Every person who reads your posts, you dolt, has most likely met somebody who is muslim and who DOESN'T fit the definition of an Islamofascist.

Or else they will have read a newspaper article for example the one describing how muslim turks are about to be beheaded by Islamofascists in Iraq.

So evidently they are not all lumped in the same dumb dumb basket are they?

That is the problem with denying self-evident truths. They are self-evident.

I have met the Islamofascist al-Muhajiroun brigade and I have met moderate muslims. They are chalk and cheese.

And most people reading this thread will have had similar experiences though most likely they won't have actually MET a real-life spittle frothing islamofascist zealot, only a moderate. Why? because there are statistically less of them - especially in Western countries.

Thank goodness. Because if there were statistically more of them, we'd be in worse trouble and a few more disastrous bombings would have happened by now.

I want to keep their numbers down thanks very much.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 9:18 Comments || Top||

#35  We have to support the moderate muslim voices at every turn against the fanatics. Yes the Humanist, Secular muslim people! And YES they exist.

They'll get my support when they start doing something. Right now, their silence sounds a hell of a lot like approval.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/29/2004 9:28 Comments || Top||

#36  Doctor Who?

I wondered how long it would take someone to get around to asking . . . all I can say is, "Exactly!" ;)

In all honesty, with all of my reading on the subject - a bit of both sides, mind you - I really don't know how. I don't have the firsthand experience that .com has, being both too young to have traveled much and without the wisdom that additional years would bring to the puzzle (and enough troubles to keep me occupied without having to think about such matters; sometimes I don't know why I keep doing it!), but I have tried to give it a lot of thought.

It's a tough situation. We cannot force them to do it - nor should we, for reasons that I hope would be extremely obvious - but neither can we just sit by, because that would give the jihadis a free hand. Given what I know about the tribal mentality, I question the wisdom of supporting select clerics, although that might be something of a viable option. Really, though, what we're doing now is about the only thing that we can, in my admittedly limited viewpoint, do: engage the jihadis, kill them wherever we can find them, and try and give some of our systems a chance in the Middle East. I know we're not making friends by doing that, both there and here, and there's no short supply of people willing to point that out, like Michael Moore (who, if he were to die tomorrow, would free up half of the world's food surplus to feed starving millions in a dozen Third World countries). So interference on our part, however difficult and apparently counterproductive an option, is about the only option we have. For the moment, we're plugging the dam, so to speak, but the moderates have to wake up, take a serious look at their religion, and reform and take it back - i.e. fix the cracked dam before we, uh (the analogy's getting strained, here!), take a giant vacuum and . . . suck up all the water behind it? Okay, it got absurd in the end, but my point is that they have to fix what's broken before we end up solving the problem by killing almost every jihadi who comes our way - and there are a number of ways that could come about, but I think I've stolen enough of Fred's bandwidth for the moment.
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 9:34 Comments || Top||

#37  Robert Crawford: you could start by supporting

THESE muslims

http://www.secularislam.org/

Who are furthering our victory FAR more... exponentially more than .com
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 9:37 Comments || Top||

#38  "I have met the Islamofascist al-Muhajiroun brigade"

How, um, convenient that this little jewel pops out now. Who'da thunk it? But, plop!, there it is.

"Well shut my mouth!", as my Grandmother used to say. Yewbetcha. I guess that wraps it up. Assume the best of all Muslims and you'll be safe - we'll all be safe. You can trust them. Anon1 and Daniel Pipes say so.

Fin.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 9:39 Comments || Top||

#39  Doctor Who, I agree with you.

Your logic and reasoning isn't a waste of bandwidth either.

It's an important topic, and that's what Rantburg is set up for: so people can debate and post news items on what's important.

I agree with everything you've written only I would add (as above lengthily repeated) that I would support the moderates to increase our chances.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 9:41 Comments || Top||

#40  . com:

re: comment #38

GAZE
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/29/2004 9:43 Comments || Top||

#41  Anon, you said you met someone from the al-Muhajiroun brigade. What was it like?
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 10:36 Comments || Top||

#42  Facts
1. Indonesia, the most populous muslim nation in the world is about to have an election. The Islamists look set to lose.
2. Algeria has had an election. The secularists won. The state is bitterly fighting the Islamist menace.
3. The Afghan army is far ahead of where it was 12 months ago and is fighting the Taliban
4. The Iraqi Police and ICDC are ahead of where they were just 2 months ago. They are fighting the Islamists. There was an article in the WaPo over the weekend that Iraqi CIVILIANS were attacking jihadis with the civilians personal weapons, in Baquba.

How many jihadis have American killed? How many jihadis have been killed by the Algerian army, by the Pakistani state, by the Afghans, by Iraqi forces, by the Yemenis, etc. It would interesting to so the numbers.

The fact is that a very large number of jihadi corpses are directly attributable to muslims fighting against the jihadis. True a year ago, true today. And where jihadis are killed by kufrs - from Iraq, to Gaza, to Chechnya - we have relied on muslim informants.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 11:17 Comments || Top||

#43  .com

Obviously I don't have solid documentation. I have various estimates of subsets (e.g., the estimates of Ahmiyada in India (they fit into the 'humanist' portion since they have explicitly renounced the violent parts of the Koran - and the number of Ahmiyada is growing faster than most other strains of Islam; a anti Ahmiyada site by another Muslim is at: http://www.alhafeez.org/rashid/british-jewish/contents.htm); the number of votes for the secular Islamic party in Malaysia would be in the secular Islam group, etc. ). The group represented by http://www.secularislam.org are fairly small (after all not that many people in the Islamic world have the internet).

estimates are just that
Posted by: mhw || 06/29/2004 11:42 Comments || Top||

#44  Anon: you do realize that the author of secularislam.org wrote a book titled "Why I am not a muslim," don't you?
How does that make him even a secular muslim?

The myth of Moderate Islam is that like that elusive dream of Sheit that don't stink.
Posted by: therien || 06/29/2004 11:42 Comments || Top||

#45  #42 Liberalhawk

And where jihadis are killed by kufrs - from Iraq, to Gaza, to Chechnya - we have relied on muslim informants.
and one must understand that a lot of them are not pro-kufr but have an axe to grind against those on whom they inform.
Posted by: Cynic || 06/29/2004 12:01 Comments || Top||

#46  .com

do you even know what Islam means? If you did, you would reevaluate the anathematical connectionbetween a disiese born out of a misplaced psyche, and a religion which , if understood, actually reveals the cure!
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 12:36 Comments || Top||

#47  .com


'and repeated attempts to convert me. I know what I'm talking about.'

This is basic, surely not from a person who knows what they are talking about?

..its impossible to convert anyone to anything, 'conversion' occurs in the heart, and only God judges. Christian Jew and Muslim in the Koran are archetypes..if you intrepret them definitively it leads to the evident misunderstandings and divisions.
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 12:54 Comments || Top||

#48  hehe! ima luv a good flaming thread. :)
Posted by: muck4doo || 06/29/2004 12:59 Comments || Top||

#49  do you even know what Islam means?
Half <------ jumping up and down in seat!
I know!
It means kill the joooooooooooos and win free prize!

ima ready for my extra credit question
Posted by: Half || 06/29/2004 13:02 Comments || Top||

#50  xtra credit question....

can a 'joooo' display muslim and christian characteristics? and a Christian, can he display jewish and muslim archetypes... if so where goes your comment???
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 13:07 Comments || Top||

#51  oooh! oooh! ima know! (sorry half i am steal you xtra credit)

they all have in comon they penis are snipped.

i win!!!
Posted by: muck4doo || 06/29/2004 13:16 Comments || Top||

#52  LOL Mucky is the winner!
Posted by: JerseyMike || 06/29/2004 13:25 Comments || Top||

#53  .com

'The disease process begins by destroying individualism, identity, and intellectual curiosity - replacing them with total compliance and acceptance of the authoritarian.'

You gotta luv the irony!!

Roger Bacon, widely regarded as founder of modern philosophical thought in the west, quoted the 11th centuary muslim scholar Ibn Sina (avicenna - medic philospher etc) as the greatest thinker since Aristotle. Bacons dualist ideas are very much a continuation of Ibn Sina.

So you can thank that disiese ridden human, whom by your definition suffered most acutely, for the dialectic you carry today.
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 13:27 Comments || Top||

#54  And where jihadis are killed by kufrs - from Iraq, to Gaza, to Chechnya - we have relied on muslim informants.
and one must understand that a lot of them are not pro-kufr but have an axe to grind against those on whom they inform.


a good cynical point of view. Now tell me, how many of the people in Sadrs Mahdi army were just street thugs looking for cash and loot? Is Prince Nayef truely an Islamist, or trying to use the Islamists to advance his own ambition. It seems that when a muslim supports the Jihadis some of us count that as evidence that muslims are islamist without looking too closely at motivation, while when a muslim works with us that doesnt count if his "heart isnt pure".

Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 13:28 Comments || Top||

#55  homework tonite kids is to look up the word archetype.
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 13:33 Comments || Top||

#56  booboo you shuld know the bacons were lizard peples.
Posted by: muck4doo || 06/29/2004 13:34 Comments || Top||

#57  moral judgements aside..
his ideas are the basis of rationalism today.

yes i did go to your site, and yes im still reeling from the woman givin birth to a frog story :)
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 13:40 Comments || Top||

#58  if moderate islam is not a myth then why do they not take a stand against fundatmentalist?
Posted by: Dan || 06/29/2004 14:23 Comments || Top||

#59  a fundamentalist is someone who follows the fundamentals of their belief.

A fundamentalist blacksmith, uses the fundamentals of metal science to procure his ware?

so whats a fundamentalist?
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 14:38 Comments || Top||

#60  It is fortunate that the Americans are a "live-and-let-live" people and extremely slow to anger. But as Walter Russell Meade indicates in The Jacksonian Tradition http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/845102/posts, Allah wouldn't like what happens next once Americans become angry. If it is pushed to become a "clash of civilizations" he and his followers will be erased from the memory of man.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 14:44 Comments || Top||

#61  'As long as they stand by in silence while these jihadis kill in the name of Islam, they, part of Islam, will be associated with those acts'

Coundnt a muslim say the same, about Mcdonald eating , Karaoke enjoying, sport loving westerners.

'As long as they stand in silence and let their rulers occupy foreign land, killing in the name of democracy, they, voters in that democracy will be associated with those acts'

i think people are not so black and white in their judgements, or at least i hope they are not.
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 14:45 Comments || Top||

#62  Boob, there is a difference between lopping someone's head off and eating at a McDonald's.

But thanks for pointing out that you are against democracy. Now we know precisely where you're coming from.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/29/2004 14:49 Comments || Top||

#63  yes because all muslims lop heads and all westerners eat mcdonals...

my point exactly
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 14:54 Comments || Top||

#64  Now we know precisely where you're coming from?

Where am i coming from? what label can you box me with today? Cmon theirs loads out their, fundamentalist, bigot, anti-west, secular, liberal democrat, modernist??? They are only labels my friend and they rarely apply so precisely to the subjects they are thrown at
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 14:57 Comments || Top||

#65  #30 ... For all the IslamoKKK violence in the world, it OBVIOUSLY isn't all muslim people actively DOING it, or even the majority. They might tacitly agree, or not care but that is different to actively strapping on a bomb belt. They can be shifted.

Anon1, this statement is totally incorrect.

To "tacitly agree, or not care" about what fanatical elements of your own religion are doing is tantamount to outright support. Silence is consent.

I will repeat for the umpteenth time; Where are all of the moderate Muslim clergy who are willing to gloriously martyr themselves by going into the regions of jihadist militancy and preaching the critical importance of secular coexistence?

[crickets chirping]

Any lack of vociferous, open protest now equates to active participation. The jihadists are the ones who have driven this equation's necessary restructuring, not secularism.

#58 if moderate islam is not a myth then why do they not take a stand against fundatmentalist?

Like Dan said, where are they? I'm hoping Fred will step back in and remind everyone that there are moderate Muslims in this world today.

At the same time, I am obliged to argue that any moderate Muslims have a very short window of opportunity to begin making a much more vigorous and visible stand against jihadist Islam.

#35 They'll get my support when they start doing something. Right now, their silence sounds a hell of a lot like approval.

Bingo, RC. It has already been mentioned elsewhere that a wedge must be driven in between moderate Muslims and their jihadist counterparts.

I propose that the only effective wedge is DEATH. Those moderates who lean a little to closely to the jihadist side will be scooped into the void by such a wedge's action. If moderate Islam continues displaying such an uninspired response to their entire religion being threatened from within, then other cultures must act from without.

Killing the jihadists is the only sure way of sending an unequivocal message to all Islam of what awaits further inaction. As I mentioned initially, the superpowers simply do not have any time to waste in attempts to alter the worldview of those who silently or actively condone global cultural genocide.

We will segregate moderate Islam from its toxic counterpart by killing the jihadists. There is no other way. Persuasion didn't work with the Nazis and it will not work here either. Islam faces two choices, reformation or death. Theocratic ascendancy is not even an option and those within Islam who believe it is must die immediately.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 15:48 Comments || Top||

#66  They are only labels my friend and they rarely apply so precisely to the subjects they are thrown at

booboo, you neglect to recognize that we are faced with applying labels, not to ordinary everyday people, but a new brand of Nazis and those within their own political and religious organ who refuse to condemn or expell them.

What amount of Islamic Nazism is considered "acceptable?" What else can one do but simply identify the Islamic Nazi types and kill all who actively participate or silently refuse to interfere with their atrocities?
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 15:55 Comments || Top||

#67  its impossible to convert anyone to anything, 'conversion' occurs in the heart, and only God judges. Christian Jew and Muslim in the Koran are archetypes..if you intrepret them definitively it leads to the evident misunderstandings and divisions.

That's fine, but I think if you took the time to read that quote and think about it, you'd see that .com was talking about Muslims waving a Qu'ran in front of him and telling him what a great ride Islam was, what with the 72 virgins grapes available for martyrs with females available upon request to Allah. All religions do that to some degree; the question is how much.

If you did, you would reevaluate the anathematical connectionbetween a disiese born out of a misplaced psyche, and a religion which , if understood, actually reveals the cure!

Don't make me laugh. Islam in its current form is a sickness, like .com said. Going back to the Qu'ran and reinterpreting it literally isn't going to work. They've been doing it for two hundred years, and if it hasn't worked up to now, it's not going to. Any more literally and they'll be contacting Mohammed with Ouija boards to ask him for advice. For this conflict to end peacefully, Muslims need to start thinking for themselves and stop letting the mullahs simply tell them what to do. They need to stop being robots and start actively integrating the modern world with their faith. Yes, there are some who have done it, but I fear there are far more who haven't, and who would secretly like to see their religion replace the West's way of life. The Islamic world hasn't produced anything of worth except for oil - which was there already - for a very, very long time. And going back to the Qu'ran isn't the solution, more religion isn't the cure. It perpetuates the problem. It needs to be rethought, not revived.
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 16:01 Comments || Top||

#68  Wait, let me guess, Booboo . . . you're Muslim, aren't you?
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 16:02 Comments || Top||

#69  The civilized world will one day wake up to the fact, jihadism is a death cult.

Those involved should be treated as anyone with a severe metal illness, if they be captured, prior to blowing themselves up in their suicidal rituals based on cultic teachings of awaiting virgins and the rest of the spoon fed rubbish.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 16:16 Comments || Top||

#70  i know what .com meant, and both he and you have a point, my point was to show the comminality between the monotheistic religions rather than the differences...which is the fashion
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 16:24 Comments || Top||

#71  'It needs to be rethought, not revived'

thats the million dollar question....
Posted by: booboo || 06/29/2004 16:28 Comments || Top||

#72  Going back to the Qu'ran and reinterpreting it literally isn't going to work. They've been doing it for two hundred years, and if it hasn't worked up to now, it's not going to

Most excellent point!!! Islam when it was a great civ, and later, when it was in decline but the decline was not yet severe, aggressively INTERPRETATED the Koran and Hadiths to adjust to new circumstances. The return to literalism was a desperate turn away FROM modernity. Its NOT the path of moderate Muslims, but of Wahabis. Maybe textual literalism was good for Christianity - Protestants and Catholics might disagree - but for Judaism modernization meant either A. Dispensing with parts of the original text (Reform) or B. Using interpretation to reconcile with modernity (conservative and Modern Orthodox) Islam is more like Judaism in this respect, I think.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:45 Comments || Top||

#73  Not so fast with the moral equivalence, booboo!
The current world jihah is being led by the Sunni Waahab Saudis, who believe that all other believers are kafir and should be slaughtered because they are in Waahab eyes' "polytheists."
This goes for Shiites, as well as Christians, Jews, Buddists, Hindu, etc.
You've never seen a Christian killing Muslims because they wouldn't eat at McDonalds.
Posted by: Jen || 06/29/2004 16:47 Comments || Top||

#74  what label can you box me with today?

How about..."boob".

Like I said, there's a difference between lopping someone's head off and eating at a McDonalds. If your head was chopped off in New York, I'd make my outrage known. If you died from eating a BigMac, I wouldn't give a crap. Try to use appropriate comparisons next time. Same goes for the "killing in the name of democracy" bit.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/29/2004 16:52 Comments || Top||

#75  well i have heard of pogroms where Jews were forced to eat pork by christians, but no i dont have a link handy, and i dont suppose the pork eating was really the point.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:52 Comments || Top||

#76  Holy Cr...er, Cow!

Guess I'll have to hit the tip jar.

Christanity did forcibly convert or kill "unbelievers" in the dark ages when the Roman Church held sway over Europe. And the worst excesses of the Holy Inquisition took place in Spain, which had been fighting the Moors.

We seem to have outgrown that particular arrogance, for the most part, thanks mostly to secularisim and the democratic memes - although some Pentecostals and their ilk would like it otherwise.

It's Fundamentalism that's the problem, and it's love affair with supposedly Perfect Knowledge.

ALL books are written by men, folks. Sorry.
Posted by: mojo || 06/29/2004 17:19 Comments || Top||

#77  Honestly, folks-

When have you ever had a discussion with someone convinced his religion was the solution to the world's problems who could actually focus on the acts we do in the HERE AND NOW--forget the "raisins" (interesting how sex, that forbidden act of carnality, is a reward in the fleshless kingdom of heaven?), forget the salvation of others and the power and the glory, blah, blah, blah... If you have a faith, fine, but the problem starts when your imagined afterlife with God depends on real aggressions against human beings. That is the seed from which terrorism starts (Inquisition or jihad).
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 17:29 Comments || Top||

#78  "The one who says ‘we should fight against terrorism’, he is fighting against Islam . . . the one who wants to avoid terrorism, is avoiding Islam" = view of terrorists.

If the others get a taste of democracy/freedom Kurd-style, the view of terrorists won't seem very appealing. Adherence to extremism loses it's lure in the face of freedom and economic increase.

Otherwise I'd agree with .com: "The disease process begins by destroying individualism, identity, and intellectual curiosity - replacing them with total compliance and acceptance of the authoritarian. The advanced state of the illness commonly expresses itself through repression, brutality, blind hatred, and psychopathic insanity."

The antibiotic-like cure for the "disease" is freedom and economic advantages for the majority.
Posted by: ex-lib || 06/29/2004 18:35 Comments || Top||

#79  Many Iraqis and others in moslem countries actually support freedom . They hate the terrorists too.

Will be amazing to see what happens in Iran. They've had a lot of freedom before and can remember, plus, compared with Iraqis, there are so many thousands of Iranians in the US, who like it just fine. Bye-bye mullahs!

Posted by: ex-lib || 06/29/2004 18:41 Comments || Top||

#80  Wow. Wotta waste.

As for Anon1, I close with the observation that when her lame, thread-bare apologist tripe and Daniel Pipes knob-job and reached the "repeat endlessly" point, she suddenly and conveniently pulls some "street cred" out of her ass. No one seems to have said anything about it, but I say it's a pure lie. She needed to save her ego, so she invented what she realized she lacked: credibility. Bullshit. As for her "GAZE" post - who the fuck knows what that means. I suggest, however, that TRANCE might be more accurate. Jump off Ayers Rock.

Now booboo - I wouldn't change a thing about your nym - booboo fits fine. Your job was to redirect discussion off into safe debatable territory - and provide the requisite moral equivalency where things got a little dicey. My favorite bit was where you say conversions occur in the heart. Gosh that's sweet. Wrong, but really sweet. Most Muslims are born into captivity. By the time they've reached an age where they might actually be inclined to question - as most here in the West would understand - it's too late. They were Muslim from birth and indoctrinated as soon as language was acquired. Just as I said in the post. The post that you actively ignored.

The greatness of Islam. I suggest that they became "great" by the sword, not by any impact of intellectual greatness. In fact, as JFM and others conversant with history have pointed out repeatedly, conquered populations provided much (most?)of the “greatness”. I do not discount that they made some contributions, but "great" should be reserved for great contributors - and Islam has taken far more than it has contributed to mankind. Pfeh to any great Islamic age. The real Islam, the one skimmed over in current history books, did not spread due to the inherent truths or intellectual prowess of Islamic scholars. It was spread by the sword - just as it is today. 1400 years of stagnant, barbaric, regressive, and repressive brutality is Islam's true legacy - and current offering. Anon1 and booboo should make sure they learn the “position” so they don’t inconvenience their Islamic Brothers when their time comes.

Being attacked is old hat. The best part is usually, and it held to form today, is that the attackers do exactly what they accuse you of doing. Arguing with a shrieker is something I normally try to avoid. Should've done so this time - and just let the apologists argue against the post. I apologize to all for not doing so, today. It says what I wanted to say - and 2 or 5 or 10 years from now, it will be so obvious people will think that writing it down to be silly. But it's not silly today, is it? My question about our progress - or the lack of it - was answered conclusively. The PC tools and fools are still busily trying to get us all to lie back and enjoy it, nothing to worry about, nothing to see here. Move along. I disagree. I stand by the post and those who disagree can either address the post or fuck off. No apologies for that statement will be forthcoming.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 20:27 Comments || Top||

#81  It's Fundamentalism that's the problem, and it's love affair with supposedly Perfect Knowledge.

ALL books are written by men, folks. Sorry.


Nothing to apologize for, mojo. You have hit the nailhead.

Islam has taken far more than it has contributed to mankind.

If one examines the astounding collective wealth of knowledge vis engineering, architecture, cuisine, astronomy, medicine and other profoundly fundamental basics that Islamic (not Islam itself) scholars contributed to world history, your statement is not entirely true, .com.

This is not to say that the disruption of civilization which jihadist Islam is currently imposing upon the international community simply negates so much of Islamic contributions preceding this blight. Quite frankly, it d@mn well is and in an unbridled fashion.

I feel that your condemnation of fundamentalist Islam's meme via a pathological model is mostly spot on, .com. Your attempts to lump all Islam into this tainted catagory might be premature, but they are not entirely unwarranted. Militant Islam is rapidly negating all of its religion's current and historical worth.

It is not just those who profess aggressive global jihad that are doing so. The thundering silence of so many other putatively peaceful Muslims are equally potent in limning out Islam as the world's enemy.

As a devout agnostic, I can no longer summon any sympathy for a religion which has gone out of its way to make enemies with all other cultures and faiths. So be it. Islam must reform or die, no choice, no middle ground, no half-way measures, no alternatives. Authentically and genuinely renouce global jihad or meet your doom. If Islam as a whole is not able to do so, I will take up arms and ensure that it perishes from the face of this earth.

Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 20:53 Comments || Top||

#82  Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God given to men.
(Jews do too, at least when it comes to the Old Testament.)
Alas, the same cannot be said for the dear old Koran.
Posted by: Jen || 06/29/2004 21:39 Comments || Top||

#83  Idea of the day:

Mother Of All Diseases = MOAD
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 21:51 Comments || Top||

#84  Mike S., you are an evil man for getting this one started, I applaud you. The rest of y'all please take care of Fred's mortgage.
Posted by: Jarhead || 06/29/2004 22:47 Comments || Top||

#85 
Jarhead, I appreciate your words in my defense the other day.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 06/29/2004 22:56 Comments || Top||

#86  The trolls keep coming back to "Christian fundamentalists." When I think of Christian fundamentalists, I think of the Amish, or idiots like Jim and Tammy Faye. The pinheads who try to shoot up abortion clinics have represented a pretty minor problem, that's been taken care of by the cops.

Islamic fundos have been a plague not only on Christians and Jews, but also on other Muslims, Hindoos, Buddhists, and anybody else they can get next to.

When people try to convert me to their religion I get bored. When they demand I convert to their religion or die, I get angry. We're not trying to forcibly convert Muslims, except to the idea of individual liberty. The same isn't true of the Islamists.
Posted by: Fred || 06/30/2004 0:04 Comments || Top||

#87  Dr Who:

I met some guys from Al Muhajiroun in 2002 when I was travelling in Britain.

I went to the infamous Trafalgar Square Rally they held (long time ago now, but it was sometime in the summer)

The main three groups of people there were Al Muhajiroun, the media (swarming with them) and police protecting the safety of the Islamofascists and their right to free speech(swarming with them, too).

They had big banners up, which were anti-Israel, and pro-Islam.

They had a series of speakers plus a load of stalls.

I was most struck by how well they had pinpointed the different intellectual cross-currents of Western culture. Each stall had various pamphlets and photocopied 'factsheets' to give out.

Each was on a different topic but with one common theme: Islam is the answer.

Lying politicians? Islam is the answer (a big comparison between the evils of democracy and the joys of a theocratic taliban-style state).

Sexism? Islam is the answer ( a big comparison between how Western society objectifies women and condones sexist porn, and rape and that Islam gives women dignity)

Environmentalism? Islam is the answer
Communism? Islam is the answer
Capitalism? Islam is the answer

and so on for every ism you could think of.

I argued with a few of them. They were all young males, and they all were extremely articulate in English. They all had degrees: computer science, engineering were the most popular. none had arts degrees for example. all practical.

I argued with them logically but all their arguments were circuitous and led back to the mantra that Islam is true, Islam is hte answer.

They straight out told me to my face that women had more rights under Islam and when challenged on why that isn't true in Saudi, they said that was because Saudi wasn't a purely Islamic state.

A man came up with a placard that had the picture of someone who had been murdered by Islamists. It said that Islam = murder, and he walked around and they got really angry at him.

They were far angrier at him than they were by my arguing logic and facts with them. They couldn't handle him at all. He didn't engage with them just criticised Islam with pictures and printed words.

that's the story of my day. Then I went into the art gallery that was just behind and had a look at some artworks, then I went home. I took some pamphlets with me but unfortunately as i was travelling around i soon lost them or threw them away. wish i kept them for refrerence, would have been useful.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/30/2004 8:58 Comments || Top||

#88  FYI

*GAZE*

Is what you do to trolls instead of wasting bandwidth by feeding them.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/30/2004 9:05 Comments || Top||

#89  Zhang Fei, Old Spook, Bulldog, Liberalhawk... you were all my old favourites that kept me coming back.

At least you had something interesting and useful to say, and when you tried to be funny you actually were.

The comments on this site have degenerated.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/30/2004 9:15 Comments || Top||

#90  DOCTOR: forgot to add: the main thing the Al Muhajiroun brigade were after that day is convincing everyone it was a righteous cause to make Britain an Islamic state governed by Sharia law. They said this to me, admitted it plainly.

That was the most gobsmacking thing about the day.

Alaska Paul... forgot to mention you in the other post, you, too are my old fave who kept me coming back.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/30/2004 9:22 Comments || Top||

#91  I don't know about the comments degenerating; some of them are pretty good. Does seem to me there's more polarization than before, perhaps.

Anyway, thanks for the story. It does shed some light on your position, although I cannot help but think that had you met them in different circumstances, they wouldn't have been quite as nice. The fact that they wouldn't listen to logic is a major clue, and in my mind is the main reason .com's analogy of disease is accurate: the level of devotion that these people show to Islam, to the exclusion of all logic and reason, is staggering. Even some of the students at the Christian college I attend aren't that impervious to logic. Admittedly, they do have some difficulty at times with some ideas, but it's nowhere near the level that Muslims often display. If Islam is the answer, they should explain how, not just state it. There is always something wrong with a group that cannot handle a critic of what they believe in/stand for, and Islam is notorious for its calls for the deaths of critics/loud cries of "Racism!" and such when someone points out basic flaws in their beliefs.
Posted by: The Doctor || 07/01/2004 12:43 Comments || Top||

#92  Who killed Jesus?
Posted by: Anonymous5539 || 06/29/2004 1:16 Comments || Top||


Russia
Russian Court Sentences Terrorist Over Train Blast
A Russian court today found one man guilty of terrorism while the trial of another suspect on terrorism charges began in a courtroom in the republic of Daghestan. In the southern Stavropol region, a court found Ismail Israpilov guilty of terrorism in connection with the September 2003 bombing of a Russian passenger train. The resulting explosion on a commuter train killed seven people and wounded more than 50 others, mainly students. Israpilov was sentenced to 20 years in jail. In Daghestan’s capital Makhachkala, the republican Supreme Court started hearing the case of Magomed Tagaev, accused of inciting interethnic hatred and trying to overthrow the government. Tagaev published two books in Chechnya that prosecutors say called for the violent overthrow of constitutional order in Daghestan and led to clashes between rebel forces and Russian troops there in August-September 1999, just before the second Chechen war started.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 4:21:36 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
Afghan Leader Urges Quick NATO Deployment
Afghan Transitional Administration Chairman Hamid Karzai has asked NATO to send the additional troops promised to his country quickly because "the Afghan people need that security today, not tomorrow." Speaking at the second and final day of a NATO summit in Istanbul, Karzai said: "From the first day of the interim government 2 and 1/2 years ago until today, the Afghan people keep coming to us and asking for international security forces in their parts of the country, because they see that force as a stabilizing element, as an element to protect them." Karzai welcomed a commitment made yesterday by NATO to provide more than 3,000 extra troops to help boost security in Afghanistan. Karzai said the move should help his government hold elections, as scheduled in September. The increase will raise the number of NATO troops available to the International Security Assistance Force to some 10,000. Reports quote officials as saying, however, that not all of these troops will be based in Afghanistan. NATO also agreed to send military-civilian reconstruction teams to four more cities in northern Afghanistan. The alliance has declined to say which countries will provide the extra troops, pending parliamentary decisions in some capitals. But NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer assured Karzai that the troops will be provided.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 4:22:33 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  But NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer assured Karzai that the troops will be provided.

NATO is waiting for the Indiana Amish to finish the manufactured brothels.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 23:02 Comments || Top||


Africa: North
U.S. military aid to Egypt under fire
A U.S. congressman wants to phase out military aid to Egypt, claiming the country is stockpiling weaponry amid diminished threats. Rep. Tom Lantos, D-Calif., the ranking Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, said he plans to introduce legislation that would convert the annual military aid of $1.3 billion to economic assistance, Middle East Newsline reported Tuesday. Egypt has created 11 battle units for the navy, Lantos said, and has procured the Harpoon-2 and fast-attack craft. "Egyptian military exercises are ominously geared toward an Israeli enemy that doesn’t obviously exist," Lantos said. "This is a policy choice." Egypt has been a major non-NATO ally of the United States since 1996. In 2003, the Bush administration approved a $300 million grant to Egypt for its contribution and pledges for cooperation related to the war in Iraq.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 7:38:35 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It will be interesting to see someone step forward and justify our Egyptian donation. It appears like they have begun to step forward to help resolve Gaza.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/30/2004 3:09 Comments || Top||


Africa: Subsaharan
Sudan: US Senators Allege Ethnic Cleansing
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 19:36 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Debka sez : ’Saddam’s "Dirty Dozen" Will be Allawi’s Hostages’
Funny in an ironic kind of way, if true
However, according to DEBKAfile’s counter-terror experts, there was more than meets the eye about the instant handover of the deposed president to his newly-sovereign successor and the foot-dragging on his trial. What Allawi did not tell the media is that he aims to keep Saddam and his circle under tight control and on tenterhooks, as hostages of the new regime.
[...]
Allawi, a secular Shiite, is therefore familiar with the inner workings of two intelligence services.
[...]
From the moment he assumed office, he became a prime target for assassins. His murder would provide a short cut for the Iraqi Baath and al Qaeda seeking to topple the Iraqi administration provisionally installed to assume sovereignty and shepherd Iraq to a democratic election. Allawi realized he needed some urgent life insurance, an ace in the hole for his survival.

What he has done therefore is to gain control of Saddam and his top 11 regime officials as hostages to guarantee his life. The insurgents will be given to understand that violence against the prime minister will be met with the fast trial and execution of a member of Saddam’s “dirty dozen.” It will therefore be in Saddam’s vital interest to keep his successor in good health.

As long as the insurgents attack American, British and Iraqi troops, the deposed dictator and his men will languish in prison without trial. This will give the new Iraqi regime a breathing space of “several months” to get to grips with the mighty task of bringing security to the country in time for elections, without looking over his shoulder all the time for an assassin.

This equation may not quite square with the vision of a great democratic Middle East as presented by US president George W. Bush to Istanbul University students on the shores of the Bosphorus Tuesday, while Awalli was talking in Baghdad about his plans for Saddam. However, given the savagery of the war raging in Iraq now and in the foreseeable future, the new prime minister’s plan, geared to the top priority of keeping him alive, may be the more realistic.

Posted by: Anonymous5089 || 06/29/2004 3:36:50 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Bravo Allawi!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 16:11 Comments || Top||

#2  someone give me water, the amount of salt this took was so massive.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:13 Comments || Top||

#3  It does not make sense. Why would any Baathist want to see these guys freed ? They would just be competition for leadership. They are better off dead all around.
Posted by: buwaya || 06/29/2004 17:13 Comments || Top||

#4  What's going on in Iraq now is savage?

I'd consider it sneaky.
Posted by: Anonymous2U || 06/29/2004 19:21 Comments || Top||

#5  Nonsense meter pegged while reading this.
Posted by: sludj || 06/29/2004 19:31 Comments || Top||

#6  Not entirely nonsense. You are projecting US values into an Arab culture. That doesnt work.

Politics over there is played hardball - and family style.

These guys run everything like a bunch of Mafia families. Or at least thats the closest thing we have over here. They are, if anything, even more loyal, but even more vicious when crossed or when they decide to cross. These are grudges and truces that go back over generations.

Know your target set - and this all of a sudden starts to be a bit less "nonsense".

To see an example of how this works, look at the Baathists in Syria and what happened when the supported taking Soviet citizens hostage a few deacdes ago. They quickly surrendered the Soviet nationals when fingers and ears of family members started arriving at the "terrorists" family homes.

I have no doubts the Al-Tikirit's and other families there are backing the Fedyaheen Saddam that are now operating as terrorists (and probably faking to be Islamicists). And you can safely bet that Al'lawi already has some of the other family members that have been very discreetly informed that they are regularly within the sights of Iraqi Government high powered rifles. And that such pictures have been given to the family elders, in addition to being shown to those in prison.

Given those pictures along with the message

[best mafia voice]
"It would be a real shame if something happened to President Allawi, you never know who would be giving the orders to those guys with the rifles, could be the VP, you know, the former the Kurdsih peshmurga leader..."

So you may see some changes - and if so, the foreign fighters (read IRANIANS) will be strung out - and eventually strung up by th same thugs who were helping them. And the Iraqis wouldn't bat an eye about Iranians being summarily killed - after all, there are few families that didnt lose a relative to the Iranians a couple decades ago.

So not as farfetched once you have some context.

The big thing here is how many "goodfellas" does Allawi have backing him up?
Posted by: OldSpook || 06/29/2004 22:08 Comments || Top||


THAT WHICH HAS BENEFIT FOR PEOPLE
This is a famous Arabic verse of divine Wisdom; the eloquence and resonance of the sentence cannot be translated but the meaning is as follows:

“As for the scum, it will go (disappear) in vain (uselessly); and as for that which has benefit for people, it will stay in the earth.”

One man of the people is asked by an MBC (An Arab network) reporter what he thinks about the new government. He answers very simply in that spontaneous genuine manner of simple folk: “aren’t these men better than the riffraff who used to govern us?” Truer words have never been said.

This day, this modest ceremony, no elaborate celebrations, no fanfare; yet surely this is a “Mother of Days” for Iraq, and history will remember this day.

Likewise, I am not going to say anything grandiose today, rather in the same style of today’s ceremonies. All I can say is that almost everybody here has hope, great hope. Personally I am confident of the future because “That which has benefit for people will stay in the earth”.

Hail our true friends, the Great People of the United States of America; The Freedom giving Republic, the nation of Liberators. Never has the world known such a nation, willing to spill the blood of her children and spend the treasure of her land even for the sake of the freedom and well being of erstwhile enemies. The tree of friendship is going to grow and grow and bear fruit as sure as day follows night. And the people deep down at the bottom of their hearts, they appreciate. Make no mistake about that. The people have voted today, the pulse of the street is clear, without any hesitation I would give 90% of all Iraqis are hopeful and supportive of the new government, and this is a tacit indirect yes to the U.S. which has been the prime mover of all these events. This is what the foolish fail to understand. Why is this a different situation from that for example of a Vietnam? The answer is very simple: Because, the U.S. has achieved something very popular around here; which is the removal of the Saddam regime. Those who are really against the U.S. from amongst the Iraqis have been and remain a small minority; all other forms of resentment are simply disappointment and disgruntlement resulting from the discomfiture of the present situation and will simply disappear with progress and gradual improvement.

As for the enemy, he will not reap but failure and the bitter taste of defeat.

Glory and honor to the U.S. and Allied men and women whose blood is irrigating the tree of freedom in this land; and their sacrifices, suffering, and toil is laying the foundation for a future renaissance of the Mesopotamian People. Hail soldiers of freedom and enlightenment. Do not be dismayed by the trouble and turbulence of the present, for the future generations will remember and appreciate.

And last but not least; Hail, Great El Bush, a leader not only of the U.S. but a true hero of mankind. And Hail Mr. Blair and the other Leaders of the Free World.

God Bless the New Republic of Iraq; God Bless America.

Wa Al Salaam Alaykum Wa rahamutu Allahi Wa Barakatuh

(Peace be upon you and the mercy of God and his blessings)

Posted by: tipper || 06/29/2004 10:35:54 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It's things like this that make me smile and think there's hope after all. This should be in every newspaper and on every TV news program. Of course, it doesn't fit with the apparent view of Iraq being a *disaster* . . .
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 10:45 Comments || Top||

#2  Reflecting on what's happened since March 03, this blogger's comments show what's wrong with coverage of Iraq. Saw the March 15, 04 edition of Newsweek at work yesterday. NOT A SINGLE LETTER OR "PERISCOPE" comment re Iraq. Only Martha Stewart/gay marriage, etc. Only four months ago. All during time between Saddam's capture and Fallujah/al-Sadr/Abu Ghraib the media was focused on piddly things. Anyway, back to point: I don't care to see Biden/hagel and ilk on TV anymore. I want serious discussions with serious Iraqis to be broadcast. Like Mesopotamia. Too much to ask? Probably so in this Farenheit 9/11 world where all movie reviewers give the Lewinsky to MM.
Posted by: Michael || 06/29/2004 14:24 Comments || Top||

#3  Thanks! I needed that!
Posted by: trailing wife || 06/29/2004 15:25 Comments || Top||

#4  danm - just had to plant that vision - a lewinsky to MM....i would surely feel sorry for the lewinsky in that situation.
Posted by: Dan || 06/29/2004 19:31 Comments || Top||


Arrest Warrants Issued for 12 Top Iraqi Suspects
The Iraqi Special Tribunal has announced arrest and detention warrants for 12 prominent figures already in U.S. custody.
They're gonna need a lot of rope.

1. Saddam Hussein; president; detained Dec. 13

2. Ali Hasan al-Majid, also known as Chemical Ali for his role in chemical weapons attacks against the Kurds; Number five on the most wanted list; detained Aug. 21

3. Aziz Saleh al-Numan; Baath Party Baghdad regional command chairman; number eight on the most wanted list; detained May 22, 2003.

4. Barzan Ibrahim al-Hassan al-Tikriti; presidential adviser and Saddam's half brother; number 38 on the most wanted list; allegedly the chief organizer of a clandestine group of companies and funds handling Saddam's money; detained April 16, 2003.

5. Kamal Mustafa Abdullah al-Tikriti; secretary of the Republican Guard; Saddam's son-in-law; number 10 on the most wanted list; detained May 17, 2003

6. Muhammed Hamza al-Zubaydi; retired revolutionary command council member; a leader of the 1991 suppression of the Shiite rebellion; number nine of the most wanted list; detained April 20, 2003.

7. Sabir Abdul Aziz Al-Douri; governor of Baghdad; head of military intelligence during the 1991 Gulf War; detention date not known.

8. Abid Hamid Mahmoud al-Tikriti, presidential secretary; he oversaw personal security force; detained June 16, 2003.

9. Sultan Hashim Ahmad; defense minister; number 27 on the most wanted list; detained Sept. 19.

10. Taha Yassin Ramadan; Iraqi vice president; revolutionary command council member; number 20 on the most wanted list; detained Aug. 20

11. Tareq Aziz; former deputy prime minister; former foreign minister; number 25 on the most wanted list; Detained April 25, 2003.

12. Watban Ibrahim al-Hasan al-Tikriti; presidential adviser and Saddam's half brother; detained April 13, 2003
Wonder if the Iraqis will make a deal for any of the lower figures to turn on Saddam and the others?
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 10:07:58 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Suspects? Alleged perpetrators? They are assisting the authorities in their investigation.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 06/29/2004 10:19 Comments || Top||

#2  They're gonna need a lot of rope.

If they don't have enough of that, electricity will do.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 10:34 Comments || Top||

#3  "here's a shovel, dig up that IED over there...yes, you can do it....quit yer crying dammit!"
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 10:41 Comments || Top||

#4  Iraq will get legal custody of Saddam, but the US will get to see him every other weekend.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 15:26 Comments || Top||

#5  Speaking of Sammy, I was wondering how much information we squeezed out of him. I know that any public statements would be disinformation, probably, especially if we said that we did not get much out of Sammy.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 17:18 Comments || Top||

#6  That is very interesting. Al-Douri seems to be in custody. I don't remember ever seeing that reported on the news. Except for a red herring about his capture several months ago (or I thought it was a red herring!)...then later, no, seems no one had any information about Al-Douri's capture.

I think that was after Saddam's capture. Within a few days, anyway (too darn lazy to look it up).

This morning I saw his name listed among the indictees. I wondered then if they'd caught him or he was just being indicted in absentia.

I thought I just missed it, but the phrase "dentention date not known" pretty much says it all. (Unless it means they don't know when they'll catch him...haha)

If they do indeed have Al-Douri and that wasn't public knowledge until now...well, that clears up some mysteries, fer sure.
Posted by: Quana || 06/29/2004 18:05 Comments || Top||

#7  I particularly like seeing Tareq Aziz (11) on the list. Somehow the smooth sophisticated spokesmen who spend their time schmoozing with diplomats at the U.N. and lying in press conferences in elegant and correct English piss me off more than the more obvious thugs.
Posted by: Dr. Weevil || 06/29/2004 22:23 Comments || Top||

#8  Quana - I'm 99% certain "Red" Al Douri isn't in custody - they'll try him in absentia, I believe.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 22:29 Comments || Top||

#9  Ok, I've looked around a bit and I think you are right, .com. The phrase "detention date not known" is a strange way to say "we ain't got 'em". Perhaps it means "we'll get him, no doubts about that". Maybe it is translated from the Arabic, a grandiloquent and effusive verbiage for "nope, don't got 'im, yet".

Just looks strange to me. And confusing for those of us with slower synaptic responses. Heh.
Posted by: Quana || 06/29/2004 23:01 Comments || Top||


Caucasus
Ingush Wahhabi leader tied to Basayev
Russian troops killed the leader of a Wahhabi group responsible for last week’s violent attack in the region of Ingushetia. Magomed Yevloyev died resisting Ingush and Russian officers trying to capture him, said Gelani Myerzoyev, an Ingush prosecutor.
"Y'll never take me alive, coppers!"
"Hokay. Sergei! Bring me the FROG!"
An automatic rifle and a grenade launcher were found with his body, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported. Yevloyev, 32, was believed responsible for the June 21-22 attacks against law-enforcement officers in the city of Nazran and other sites in Ingushetia, which borders Chechnya. Russian authorities blame Wahhabis for much of the violence in southern Russia.
With lotsa justification, we might add...
Ten people were detained in connection with the violence and three had been charged with terrorism, Deputy Russian Prosecutor General Sergei Fridinsky said yesterday. According to Interfax, Yevloyev was an ethnic Ingush who was born in the Chechen capital of Grozny. He is believed to have belonged to a group led by Chechen rebel Shamil Basayev. "Yevloyev used to visit his relatives and friends in Ingushetia, saying that he came under orders from Basayev to form a new unit for operations in Ingushetia," Interfax reported. Russian media also alleged Yevloyev was a deputy to warlord Doku Umarov, who police officials say was involved in the attacks.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/29/2004 8:58:12 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Dooku minion arrested in Chechnya
An active participant of the illegal armed formations was detained in the Urus-Martan District of Chechnya, RIA Novosti was told on Monday by a source in the interior ministry of the republic. According to the source, during the detention operation in the Goyty village of the Urus-Martan district, certain Ismail Yedayev put up armed resistance to the policemen. The militant was wounded by a return fire, apprehended and placed in a hospital. As RIA Novosti was told in the Regional Operative Headquarters the detainee acknowledged that he was an active member of a gang which formed a part of the illegal armed formation with the field commander Doku Umarov at the head.
But Count Dooku was run out of his hideout by Obi Wan and a coupla other jedi knights and their attendant squires...
"The detainee gave evidence that he was on the south-west outskirts of the village with three more members of the bandit group with the aim of shipping foodstuffs to the high-mountain locality," the report of the Regional Operatives Headquarters, which was received by RIA Novosti, says. According to the report, during the operation to seek out the militants, the locality was combed, the questioning of the local population was done, and ambushes were set up. Further joint operations to seek out and detain the bandits are being conducted, the report says.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/29/2004 8:55:13 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
3 Marines killed, 3 Turks released
A roadside bomb blast killed three U.S. marines in Baghdad on Tuesday in the first reported fatal attack on U.S. forces in Iraq since the formal handover of sovereignty to an interim government.

A U.S. military spokesman said two marines were also wounded in the explosion that wrecked a Humvee vehicle escorting a convoy carrying engineering equipment.

"I don’t know why the terrorists want to kill us. We just want to help Iraqis," said a marine at the scene.

An Arabic television station aired a video tape on Monday showing what militants said was the execution of a U.S. soldier.

While uncertainty shrouded his fate, three Turkish hostages walked free after their release by a group led by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a suspected al Qaeda ally.

His group had previously threatened to behead the Turks on Tuesday unless their government told companies to stop dealing with U.S. forces in Iraq. Ankara had rejected the demand.

"Jama’at al-Tawhid and Jihad announces the release of the Turkish hostages for the sake of Muslims in Turkey and their demonstrations against (U.S. President George W.) Bush," a masked man said on a video tape aired by Arabic Al Jazeera TV.

A three-day visit by Bush to Turkey for a NATO summit has been met by widespread protests against his policies in Iraq.

A Turkish government official confirmed the three men had been freed. Another two Turks seized in Iraq three weeks ago have told their families they are well and will return to Turkey within a week, Turkish media reported.

Kidnap groups have also threatened to kill a U.S. marine and a Pakistani. The Pakistani’s captors said on Sunday he would be beheaded within three days unless Iraqi prisoners were released.

Hostage-taking and violence are among the challenges facing the interim government sworn in on Monday after the U.S.-British occupation formally ended, two days earlier than planned.

Iraq’s independent Al Mada newspaper said only time would tell how much freedom Iraqis would have to manage their affairs.

"It was a celebration with no marches, not one shot fired in joy, and in the streets everything remained as it was, with American patrols, Iraqi police checkpoints. Even the terrorist gangs that had warned Iraqis of hell carried out ordinary operations -- an explosion here and there and some shells at the Green Zone," it said in a front-page editorial.

Outside Iraq the handover helped drive world oil prices to their lowest level in more than two months on traders’ hopes of less sabotage and steadier exports. The benchmark Brent crude was down 50 cents at $33.20 a barrel in early trading.

But there was anguish for the family of the man identified on the video footage shown on Al Jazeera television as Private Keith Maupin, 20, a U.S. soldier seized by guerrillas in April.

A gunman could be seen firing one shot at the soldier, wearing greenish overalls and seen only from the back. The body collapsed into a hole.

U.S. defense officials said Maupin’s family had been told of the video, but that there was no confirmation that Maupin, from Batavia, Ohio, was the man killed. The family began a vigil on Monday and prayed for the soldier’s safe return.

Al Jazeera quoted a statement from a previously unheard of group as saying the soldier was killed because of U.S. policy in Iraq and in revenge for what it described as their martyrs in Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Algeria. The group was identified as the Implacable Power Against the Enemy of God and the Prophet.

The marine, Corporal Wassef Ali Hassoun, is held by a group calling itself the Islamic Response Movement.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/29/2004 8:37:33 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "I don’t know why the terrorists want to kill us. We just want to help Iraqis," said a marine at the scene.

I hope someone keeps an eye on this individual. Something there just doesn't sound right..
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 11:01 Comments || Top||

#2  I read that quote and sat dumbstruck for a second.
Posted by: Damn_Proud_American || 06/29/2004 11:12 Comments || Top||

#3  Sounds like he's young, innocent and idealist. He'll get over it.
Posted by: Steve || 06/29/2004 12:39 Comments || Top||

#4  He'd better. Or he won't get much older.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 13:36 Comments || Top||

#5  Prolly a young lad (PFC) who hasn't been in country long.
Posted by: Jarhead || 06/29/2004 19:07 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Egyptian Pressence and Moat to change Gaza
excerpted from Monday’s State Department Daily Press Briefing. I am posting this because I think this section of the Q&A demonstrates a significant change in how Sharon’s Gaza pullout will change the dynamics in the Palestinian situation.

QUESTION: Okay -- tit-for-tat with Gaza and also a killing of a member of another militant group up in Nablus. The Egyptians were asked to help with the security in Iraq, and also undoubtedly in Gaza. There was a plan of building a moat, literally 2.5 kilometers in length, to separate Gaza from Egyptian territory. And recently, the, I guess, Mubarak Government has asked, or given an ultimatum to Chairman Arafat to either help with the security matters or -- now, has that been the center of the talks that are going on in Taba with Bill Burns and also Cofer Black as well?

MR. ERELI: Cofer Black is the Special Coordinator for Counterterrorism. Ambassador Black was not in the discussions in Taba. Ambassador Burns was representing the United States.
The issue of arms smuggling through the tunnels to Gaza was very much an issue at Taba, as was the very welcome and important and positive Egyptian support for consolidating and enabling Palestinian security forces.
There has been -- there have been a number of violent incidents in Gaza over the weekend. The important point to make here is that, you know, as we’ve said many times, it’s up to the Palestinians to act to show that they can assume responsibility for security in Gaza once the Israelis withdraw. That’s absolutely critical. The events of this weekend underscore the necessity for that kind of capability.
The Egyptians are working, I think, very hard, and so far, very successfully, to help the Palestinians get there, but we still need to see the Palestinians take immediate steps to consolidate their security forces under a single, responsible and accountable leadership that is fully committed to taking steps to end the terror and violence. And that remains a top priority.
I’m sorry, we’re going to go to Iraq.

QUESTION: Well, can we stay on that?

MR. ERELI: One more on this?

QUESTION: Yeah. At least some -- a few of those attacks were precipitated by Israel doing a targeted assassination of the leader of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. Do you think that these sensitive -- at this time of these sensitive talks in Taba and, you know, all the things that they’re trying to do with the Palestinians, that this makes it more difficult or a more tenuous situation?

MR. ERELI: I don’t think there’s an -- I don’t think there’s an excuse accept -- that’s acceptable for the Palestinians not acting against terror, and that means consolidating the security forces and taking steps against the kinds of groups, Al-Aqsa and others, that practice terrorism, that accept terrorism as a legitimate tool to achieve political ends. I mean, that is just -- there is no place for that in our -- in the modern world.

QUESTION: I’m not suggesting that, I mean, of course, they do. But at the same time, I mean, do they need this added burden of having to prevent attacks that wouldn’t -- that perhaps wouldn’t have happened had the Israelis not done this targeted -- I mean, you’ve spoken out against targeted killings in the past, I mean, especially now when these sensitive negotiations are going on. I mean, was this a prudent step?

MR. ERELI: Obviously, Israel -- we recognize Israel’s right to take actions in defense, in self-defense. Our focus, and we think the party’s focus, should be on moving with all due haste in preparing to take advantage of a changed dynamic, and that changed dynamic is the Israelis’ plan to withdraw all settlements from Gaza and turn it over to the Palestinians and distractions from that, attempts to find other issues to deal with, are not helpful.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:53:49 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Early Iraq Handover Signals Serious Loss of Ground
DEBKAfile Special Analysis

June 28th, 2004, 1:21 PM (GMT+02:00)


A final cordial moment in Baghdad


The US-led coalition administration of Iraq came to an end at a hasty, secretive ceremony in the most heavily protected corner of Baghdad Monday, June 28, 48 hours ahead of the scheduled June 30 date. US administrator Paul Bremer handed the document to interim president Ghazi al-Yawar, who was flanked by prime minister Iyad Allawi and justice minister Dr. Malik Dohan Al-Hassan.

Not a single American or Middle East television station was allowed to broadcast the epic occasion live from coalition headquarters in the Green Zone. Only after the fact was it made known in Istanbul, as forty-four world leaders assembled for their annual NATO summit. President George W. Bush and UK premier Tony Blair met Monday afternoon to decide what would happen next in Iraq.

The clandestine ceremony was followed pell-mell by two events: Bremer, ex-US administrator, flew out of Baghdad, and the sovereign prime minister in his first public statement pledged elections on schedule next January.

The surprise move prompted a rush of explanations by various informed sources who presented it as:

1. An attempt to pre-empt the spectacular Iraqi guerrilla-al Qaeda terrorist strikes that intelligence experts judged were scheduled for June 30. It was hoped that the secretly-planned fait accompli of the transition would catch the enemy off-balance.

2. A demonstration to the assembled NATO leaders that Washington and London, in asking for alliance assistance for the Iraqi army, seriously meant what they said about handing power over to an indigenous regime in Baghdad. The formal act was supposed to finally win round any waverers.

However, DEBKAfile political and military analysts believe these arguments which may sit well in the diplomatic arena are unlikely to stand the test of reality inside Iraq, where the precipitate handover looks less like a coolly reasoned move and more like a counsel of desperation, or even the loss of control by coalition leaders.

Military and intelligence experts question the value of the powers handed over to the interim Iraqi government and its ability to establish stability and security when 80 percent of the new 260,000-strong Iraqi army are untrained or disloyal - many have been caught collaborating with Iraqi insurgents fighting US and coalition forces. In these circumstances, even if NATO leaders vote to aid the sovereign Iraq armed forces, their decision is unlikely to come to fruition for two main reasons: First, The European powers insist on training the troops outside Iraq. According to intelligence estimates, once tens of thousands of Iraqi security personnel reach Europe, most will go AWOL from their training facilities and claim the status of political refugees. The mass exodus will leave the newly empowered government in Baghdad worse off than before and even more dependent on American forces. Europe, for its part, will be landed with a new refugee problem. Second, Attempts to train Iraqi forces in Jordan last year have proved unsuccessful. As soon as they crossed the border, they were penetrated by undercover agents sent in by Iraqi guerrilla forces and returned home implanted with subversive cells.

President Bush has little hope therefore of leaving Istanbul with a NATO pledge of substantial assistance to the sovereign Iraqi army in his pocket, an asset he had hoped to gain for his re-election campaign. Neither can the interim government in Baghdad count on much succor from NATO.

Iraq’s interim foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari, in Istanbul for the NATO summit, explained the move in a nutshell. He said power was transferred ahead of time in view of “the deteriorating security situation.” In other words, the Americans and British passed a hot potato to Baghdad before the brew heated up still further.

Yet, despite all the evidence to the contrary, Western diplomats in Istanbul were still insisting that the change of date must have shocked and dismayed the insurgents into abandoning their planned terror spectaculars on or around the transition. According to our sources in Baghdad, their motivation for fighting the Americans and toppling the interim government remain as high as ever. After the capture of Saddam Hussein last December, it was also hoped that that the level of violence would decline; instead it has climbed, spread and become more sophisticated.

In the view of DEBKAfile’s counter-terror experts, Iraqi guerrillas have in the last six months improved their tactical flexibility and ability to adapt to changing conditions, so that logistically they are capable of rescheduling their major terrorist drama to fit the new circumstances. The date is less important than the fact that the insurgents and al Qaeda retain the initiative for striking whenever they choose, regardless of the step taken by decision-makers in Istanbul.

An important point to be considered now is this: in what light does the change of the sovereignty handover date present the US president in the Middle East and key nations like Pakistan and Afghanistan where the global war on terror is being fought? And what signals does it send to the Islamic terrorists? According to our sources around the region, it is seen as a loss of ground for US military and political positions in Iraq and the war on terror. America’s enemies will be encouraged to redouble their pressure on US troops and their coalition partners in the hope of putting them to flight.

For the present, the ball is very much in the hands of the insurgent and Islamic groups holding five hostages under threat of death, including for the first time a US marine, Wassaf Ali Hassoun, one Pakistani driver and three Turkish civilians. US ex-administrator Bremer left the hornets’ nest of sovereign Iraq behind him when he made haste to depart Baghdad on Monday.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 2:31:17 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Nope, no slant here. sheesh.
Posted by: JerseyMike || 06/29/2004 8:45 Comments || Top||

#2  Now that sovereignty exists,how can a Iraqi claim "political refugee" status ?
Posted by: rich woods || 06/29/2004 10:22 Comments || Top||

#3  Debka reminds me of the liberal arts students who tried to BS their way past technical questions back in college. Instead of looking at trends in American KIA, Debka looks at qualitative measures like handover mechanics. This Debka article reminds us that a lot of Israelis are Euro-style appeasers, except they're keep on getting jerked back into the real world by mass murdering Muslim Arabs.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/29/2004 10:33 Comments || Top||

#4  If I was a foreign terrorist in Fallujah, I'd sleep lightly. Allawi can whack em like we never could, sensitivities be damned. He knows that getting control of that rathole is job number 1 (same for Ramadi)
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 10:36 Comments || Top||

#5  Debka is just spiked cause they can't get rid of the paleos..
Posted by: Dan || 06/29/2004 10:44 Comments || Top||

#6  I have no idea of the validity of the Debka analysis (Grain of salt usually advised) but Jeez Zhang,
Speaking on behalf of liberal arts majors everywhere, it has never been firmly established, to my satisfaction anyway, that BS is limited exclusively in the school of Liberal Arts. It may only seem that way to those who have difficulty interpreting large amounts of ambiguous information.
Did some Liberal Arts bully steal your lunch money one day?
Posted by: Capsu78 || 06/29/2004 11:29 Comments || Top||

#7  I too think the hand over early was designed to keep the detractors off-balance and good for Bush/Blair for making it happen that way. I bet it took the wind out of a lot of talking heads, demonstrators, and malcontents that were looking to make a ‘political statement’ both inside and outside Iraq. Now the reality is that there is a sovereign government in place most of the conspiracy theories that were being sold are debunked. I really think that the new PM needs to stomp out the bad guys in the Sunni triangle ASAP (the more brutal the better). Also a speedy trial/execution of the former leadership would bolster his standing amongst the people and remove a banner that all the nutballs are clinging onto. If these fail his government won’t last until the promised January elections.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) || 06/29/2004 11:49 Comments || Top||

#8  So now what happens in the WoT. Does Iraq stay the front lines or does the front change.

The idea that the new PM will move hard and fast on insurgency is very appealling. I hope he uses our F-15 wisely and decisively.
Posted by: Lucky || 06/29/2004 12:23 Comments || Top||

#9  good question lucky. Zarq has a lot invested in Iraq, and despite the handover, theres a long way to go to get to security needed for elections. So i think zarq (assuming hes alive) stays and fights in Iraq for some time. If shifts fronts I assume it would be to Saudi. Note that Afghanistan and Pakistan continue to be important fronts as well. This will remain a fluid war (insert Rumsfeldian comment here)
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 12:31 Comments || Top||

#10  DEBKA is asserting the obvious here, that the situation is still very dangerous and that the enemy, being a terrorist force, has the ability to initiate attacks when/where they see fit.

Frank G. makes the critical point looking foreward and it is the one that I believe will determine the success of the new government. If Allawi had the stones, he will declare martial law in Fallujah and other select hell holes. He will then send in combined US and Iraqi forces to crush the terrs, all the while exhorting his countrymen to support his efforts to build a free Iraq.

The last point is key and is something that Bremer and the CPA did a miserable job of. Hopefully Allawi will have a better understanding of how to reach out to the Iraqi populace and get them to turn en masse against the terrs. Once the tipping point is reached, the terrs will be finished. To get to that point will require some hard pushing. I hope that they can get it done.
Posted by: remote man || 06/29/2004 13:03 Comments || Top||

#11  My understanding is that the interim government is going to announce "special security measures" tomorrow.

Posted by: Shipman || 06/29/2004 13:07 Comments || Top||

#12  I don't suppose that anyone thought that maybe they were just going to avoid the obvious terror attack at the ceremonies?
Posted by: flash91 || 06/29/2004 13:38 Comments || Top||

#13  --three Turkish civilians.--

Not anymore.
Posted by: Anonymous2U || 06/29/2004 15:30 Comments || Top||

#14  Iraq will remain the focus for now in the WoT. This is the Guadalcanal of the ME. If Iraq is successful in forming some kind of working govt that expels or kills the Islamic terrorists, or at least makes them a minor player, then the terrorists have lost a major battle. So it is really up to Allawi to move rapidly and decisively in eliminating this threat to the life of his new nation. He also has Iran to deal with, who are stoking things up, too. We will have to use our assets in dealing with them.

Saudi is the golden egg goose. Al Q is not destroying oil industry infrastructure---they know where their bread and butter comes from. If they succeed in shutting down Saudi oil production, who will get it going again after the "revolution"?

I would really like to see an analysis of terrorist funding sources and percentages. That is going to drive our efforts in the WoT. I can't help thinking that the terrorists also want flexibility in financing for their continued survival.
Posted by: Alaska Paul || 06/29/2004 16:53 Comments || Top||


MSNBC reporting the 3 turks were released.
MSNBC at 7AM EST this morning is reporting that the three Turkish prisoners have been released by the terrorists. Nothing was said of why they might have done so, other than it being a symbolic gesture. They didn’t bother to speculate what sort of gesture, perhaps the please don’t come kill us kind? I’m sure more will show up later.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 06/29/2004 7:13:47 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They released them because they were muslim.
Posted by: jawa || 06/29/2004 10:52 Comments || Top||

#2  What? The jihadis finally notice they were "fellow" (and I use the term loosely) moslems?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/29/2004 10:56 Comments || Top||

#3  They released them because they were Turks and the Turkish Army let it be known what would happen to the terrorists should anything unfortunate happen to their fellow Turks. As said earlier, these animals only respect raw power and the will to use it. Think that they're not going to kill the moslem Marine? They've been killing Iraqi moslems with great glee for the past few months. Explosions in Morocco, Algeria, etc. say that they don't care about religion, only about what happens to their own worthless hides. Captured terrorists should be boiled alive in pig fat.
Posted by: RWV || 06/29/2004 14:51 Comments || Top||


Africa: Subsaharan
Muslim clerics plan protest for Powell, Annan visits to Sudan
Sudanese Islamic and trade union groups are planning protests Wednesday against visits here by US Secretary of State Colin Powell and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, a state-owned daily reported. Some 500 people are expected to take part in a rally in the capital called by the Sudanese Muslim clerics’ association and trade unionists, before handing in a protest letter to the UN representative, the Al-Anbaa newspaper said. One of the organisers, Fathi Khalil, who heads the lawyers’ association, said the letter would protest "the criminal acts being committed by the United States in Iraq and Palestine, as well as the passive attitude of the international body." Trade union federation chief Ibrahim Ghandour said the demonstrations would protest US and UN "double standards".
Unbelievable. Black Muslims take notice, and feel the love.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 06/29/2004 2:24:03 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I agree with Ibrahim Ghandour that there is a double-standard with respect to human-rights.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:34 Comments || Top||

#2  Protesters-oooo, scary.

Why don't they make a red carpet for these esteemed protesters? They have the material already-just drain the blood from the corpses in Darfur. After all, blood is the new commodity in Islam-especially Black blood.

Hypocrisy and savagery-thy name is Islam.
Posted by: jules 187 || 06/29/2004 10:37 Comments || Top||

#3  Vietnamese monks used to torch themselves in protest.
Take a hint from history, "clerics".
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 11:36 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Poll: Half of Iraqis Want Democracy

Mon Jun 28, 5:29 PM ET

LONDON - Nearly 60 percent of Iraqis surveyed believe U.S.-led forces were wrong to invade Iraq, but half think that democracy is what their country needs most, according to a poll released Monday.
Typical Arab disconnect. "[H]alf think that democracy is what their country needs most" but "U.S.-led forces were wrong to invade Iraq." How the hell else were they going to get democracy, by digging it out of one of their innumerable mass graves?
But the poll also found that nearly 60 percent believe that the United States must help rebuild Iraq if it wants the country’s interim government succeed.
But they’re still not entirely grateful for having their sorry @sses rescued from Saddam’s tender mercies.
The initial results of the latest poll were published as the coalition transferred sovereignty to the interim Iraqi government in Baghdad two days earlier than expected. The poll — conducted by Oxford Research International and funded by the University of Oxford — included interviews with 3,002 Iraqis across Iraq between May 19 and June 14. The margin of error was 1.82 percent. Asked what Iraq needs in the next five years, 50 percent said democracy. Asked about the invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003, 59 percent said it was somewhat wrong or absolutely wrong, while 41 percent said it was somewhat or absolutely right.
Statistically, that’s a wash, but it still reflects a massive lack of support for those that deposed a murderous tyrant in their name.
More than 80 percent of Iraqis said they have no confidence in U.S. and British forces. Asked about their presence in Iraq, 58 percent opposed it, and 42 percent supported it. Asked to characterize the forces, 72 percent called them either occupiers or exploiters, while nearly 28 percent called them liberators or peacekeepers.
If establishing forward bases in Iraq wasn’t such a high priority, I’d just as soon deliver Iraq into the hands of Iran and give them an ultimate taste of what "occupiers or exploiters" are all about. Sadly, right now we are obliged to maintain a presence in order to thwart Iran’s nuclear aspirations and begin slapping Syria around. Having a solid listening post in place for Saudi Arabia isn’t such a bad idea either.

It seems nearly impossible to accomplish even the most minor sort of diplomatic triumphs without offending Arab sensibilities. In the long run, this one feature alone may well prove the ultimate poison pill to any sort of constructive collaboration with Islamic Middle Eastern governments. The glass jaw of humiliation that is firmly embedded in so many Arabic cultures makes impossible meaningful exchange of any sort. Secular cultures must never be so foolish as to accommodate constant Arab demands for kid glove treatment while they themselves continue to run roughshod over every peaceful overture.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 2:13:25 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  A BS poll. There is no indication of how many other alternative were available, how each of the other alternatives were ranked by percentage. Plus, the results are completely confounding with obvious contradictions that would require a professional pollster to resolve.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/29/2004 2:24 Comments || Top||

#2  An the other 50% demand that all Iraqis be immediately subjugated and tortured.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:22 Comments || Top||

#3  They really don't get it, do they?
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 8:52 Comments || Top||

#4  From the silly Dudley Moore movie, Crazy People, "And how many want to be a Fire Engine?"

(100% raise their hands...)

I love polls taken in non-logical cultures. They're so, um, faith-based.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 8:57 Comments || Top||

#5  Oxford Research International is a left-wing think tank, which means that they probably dig deep to get the viewpoints they want to get. The survey was probably conducted in the Sunni triangle by Baathist stringers who used to work for Saddam.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/29/2004 9:42 Comments || Top||

#6  a few months ago most thought the invasion was a good thing. Cause, like, security and reconstruction seemed to be making progress. After two months of insurgency, its like, shit man, we're still really unsafe, reconstruction has slowed to a crawl, and its hard to see how we GET TO democracy. If things improve in the next few months, theyll decide again that the invasion was a good idea. These are people living from crisis to crisis - they judge actions by their IMMEDIATELY visible fruits. Theyre not crazy. They dont have the leisure to take the long view.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 9:53 Comments || Top||

#7  Or, they expected to be handed civilization on a golden platter and, realizing they have to work for it, are willing to go back to a thugocracy because it was easier.

Admittedly, that's the uncharitable view.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/29/2004 10:17 Comments || Top||

#8  Interesting phrasing to some of these questions: "Do you prefer breathing to drinking water?" 50% of respondents are opposed to water.
"Do you have confidence in the weather?" 70% of respondents think the weather should be "nicer."
"Are you in favor of being conquered in a war?" Over 90% of respondents would prefer not being conquered in a war.

From this we may conclude that while Iraqis don't like to drink water, they want the UN to provide it, and the want the US to leave immediately.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 06/29/2004 10:29 Comments || Top||

#9  Now how did you come to the conclusion that they want the UN to provide it? I question these poll results! Unfair bias!
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 10:39 Comments || Top||

#10  Or, they expected to be handed civilization on a golden platter

cause like man, the americans in the movies can like, do anything, theyre rich, the streets are paved with gold ......

This may have been stupid, but its not particularly unique to Islam. Sadder but wiser, theyll move ahead.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 10:59 Comments || Top||

#11  a few months ago most thought the invasion was a good thing
Cite the article that demonstarted that attitude, #6. What I remember from a few months ago was that the poll showed that the Kurds were overwhelmingly positivie about the invasion and the Sunnis & Shiites were their usual dog in the manger selves. In fact someone on this board remarked that the Kurds should be given honorary American citizenship so they could vote in our November election. If truth be told, the rose colored glasses about "liberation" fell off the noses of the Sunnis and Shiites approximately 3-6 months after the invasion. I agree with #7. The Sunnis and Shiites are accustomed to someone, be it Uncle Saddam or America, to provide for them and when it's not, they are p*ss*d.

Sadder but wiser, theyll move ahead.
And your confidence is based on what historical events that show Islamic dominating countries "moving ahead." I'm invariably put down for my doubting that Iraqis, apart from the Kurds, value or will learn to value democracy.

But the optimists never have any arguments to support their view that Iraqis will just kick up their heels and love democracy. Their only defense is the airy fairy sentiment about all men innately want to be free, which is not fact. So tell me LH, what makes you believe that Iraqis will move ahead and become a functioning democracy?
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 12:44 Comments || Top||

#12  What these sad sacks need is someone to teach them the benefits of the PWE and teach them also the 6 Pee way.
Posted by: Ollie Cromwell || 06/29/2004 12:54 Comments || Top||

#13  And your confidence is based on what historical events that show Islamic dominating countries "moving ahead." I'm invariably put down for my doubting that Iraqis, apart from the Kurds, value or will learn to value democracy

1. There are no historical precedents for the US taking action like this. But if you want examples of muslim countries moving ahead to democracy, I would cite Turkey and Indonesia at the forefront, and Algeria, Mali,and Albania moving up. But what mainly accounts for my comments is not historical precedent but what I have seen Iraqis doing and saying in the last 14 months.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 12:59 Comments || Top||

#14  How many wish Saddam was back in power?
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 14:23 Comments || Top||

#15  Their actions in the next three weeks will determine how well they do. Let's wait and see what happens.
Posted by: Ptah || 06/29/2004 14:43 Comments || Top||

#16  #14 How many wish Saddam was back in power?

Bingo, Mark. This question should be mandatory as part of a baseline plot on all polls performed in Iraq.

If more than 50% answered "yes" to that it would show the world just how screwed up their heads really are. Something else that concerns me is how we need to establish some way of distinguishing between greenhorn Iraqi government snafus and the incipient incompetence of any UN morons who will be arriving on the scene.

It may be rather difficult to discern Iraq's unfamiliar gropings from the UN's routine inability to function.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 14:51 Comments || Top||

#17  examples of muslim countries moving ahead to democracy, I would cite Turkey and Indonesia at the forefront, and Algeria, Mali,and Albania moving up
Turkey only recently allowed a significant minority group,the disenfranchised Kurds, to be able to read and speak their own language and that was a politically motivated "freedom" given in response to Turkey sucking up to the EU. The current leader of Turkey, a former Islamic "supremisist" to put it politely is kept in power at the wishes of the military. Under the facade of the happy face democracy label, Turkey's democratically elected government has the strong fist of the military behind it keeping order.

As for Indonesia, good one, LH...democracy? belief that all people should have equal rights?...err, well except Jews, that is ...in case you missed the story from October 25 or so, 2003, the "audience to whom Mahathir spoke -- the presidents, kings, and emirs of the nations that make up the Organization of the Islamic Conference -- rewarded him with a standing ovation! The applauders included not only the Muslim world's dictatorial fanatics; but also its reputed moderates, including President Megawati Sukarnoputri of Indonesia, General Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan and Jordan's King Abdullah..."

As for Algeria, puhleaze, a military run country no democracy. Just check Info Please Almanac[unless it's overly biased and pessimestic]:
Abdel-Aziz Bouteflika's ascension to the presidency in April 1999 was initially expected to bring peace and some economic improvement to this desperate war-torn country. Bouteflika, however, has been locked in power struggles with the military, whose support is crucial. Despite the appearance of democracy, Algeria remains in essence a military dictatorship. Bouteflika's plan of national reconciliation, which included an amnesty for Islamic militants not convicted of murder or rape, has done little to heal wounds. In 2001 violence by Islamic militants was again on the rise, and the long-disaffected Berber minority engaged in several large-scale protests. The Berber-speaking region of Kabylia and other regions continued large protests against the government in 2002...In April 2004 presidential elections, incumbent Abdelaziz Bouteflika won 85% of the vote. He stated that his second term would be devoted to solving the three-year-old crisis in the Berber region of Kabylia, to freeing women from restrictive family codes...

Mali-what's that? where is it?

Albania:from the CIA Factbook
Between 1990 and 1992 Albania ended 46 years of xenophobic Communist rule and established a multiparty democracy. The transition has proven difficult as corrupt governments have tried to deal with high unemployment, a dilapidated infrastructure, widespread gangsterism, and disruptive political opponents. International observers judged legislative elections in 2001 to be acceptable and a step toward democratic development, but identified serious deficiencies that should be addressed through reforms in the Albanian electoral code.
This is an up and coming democracy? The current leader of Albania is a former military general. And were it not for the US seeding $358.62 million from 1991 and 2003 this "up and coming" democracy would have flopped big time.

my comments is not historical precedent but what I have seen Iraqis doing and saying in the last 14 months
Correction...the only Iraqis who have got off their butts and done something for themselves and who have not harbored terrorists in their midst have been the Iraqi KURDS. Nice try, no sale, LH. Back to the drawing board. Not all cultures can value democracy or embrace it when it's handed to them. I predict the Shiite Iraqis will openly be holding hands with Iran after the January elections. The Kurds if they are smart should ask the Israeli engineers to give them a bid on building a very tall fence starting January/05. The Sunnis-who cares about them-likely they will move closer to hugging their soul mates in Syria. I'll eat my hat if democracy flourishes in Iraq.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 14:58 Comments || Top||

#18  How many wish Saddam was back in power?
If Uncle Saddam had not invaded Kuwait and then invited our wrath, which transformed him into an anti-West nutball can any of us say honestly that he would need to be removed? If Saddam had stayed the same as the Saudi Princes,ie. not openly anti-American, do any of you believe any President including GWB would have involved the US in a War of Iraqi Liberation? I seriously doubt it. I wouldn't if I were President.

I suspect we may end up having to install-through democratic elections of course-another Saddam-like iron fist to keep order in Iraq in the future.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 15:08 Comments || Top||

#19  because Sukarnoputri applauded Mahathirs speech, that proves Indonesia isnt a democracy?

Albania - yup, making progress, exactly.

And Algeria is too.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 15:11 Comments || Top||

#20  Algeria’s most recent presidential election took place on April 8, 2004. For the first time since independence, the presidential race was democratically contested through to the end. Besides incumbent President Bouteflika, five other candidates competed in the election. Opposition candidates complained of some irregularities on polling day, particularly in the Kabylie, and of unfair media coverage during the campaign as Bouteflika, by virtue of his office, appeared on state-owned television daily. Bouteflika was re-elected in the first round of the election with 84.99% of the vote. Just over 58% of those Algerians eligible to vote participated in the election.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 15:20 Comments || Top||

#21  Mali (in west Africa)

In 1997, attempts to renew national institutions through democratic elections ran into administrative difficulties, resulting in a court-ordered annulment of the legislative elections held in April 1997. The exercise, nonetheless, demonstrated the overwhelming strength of President Konare's ADEMA Party, causing some other historic parties to boycott subsequent elections. President Konare won the presidential election against scant opposition on May 11. In the two-round legislative elections conducted on July 21 and August 3, 1997, ADEMA secured more than 80% of the National Assembly seats.

General elections were organized in June and July 2002. President Konare did not seek reelection since he was serving his second and last term as required by the constitution. All political parties participated in the elections. In preparation for the elections, the government completed a new voter's list after a general census was administered a few months earlier with the support of all political parties. Retired General Amadou Toumani Toure, former head of state during Mali's transition (1991-92) became the country's second democratically elected President as an independent candidate. President Toure was inaugurated on June 8, 2002.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 15:22 Comments || Top||

#22  You are a dreamer, LH, and you also put a spin on reality.

Algeria is not a functioning democracy. The holding of elections does not a democracy make. Remember just 3 years ago Uncle Saddam held elections and he had wonderful voter turn out as well. I had no idea where Mali was located until you told me. I suspect most college graduates would not know either. In other words, it's not a mover or shaker in the world, that's for sure. And you don't quote how much tax $ it's taking from my pocket and yours to help Mali maintain its "democratic" government.

There are 191 countries in the UN. The vast majority are not functioning democracies[elections aside]. And the majority of non functioning UN democracies have Muslim leadership and majority populations. Odd coincidence.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 15:37 Comments || Top||

#23  Besides incumbent President Bouteflika, five other candidates competed in the election.

can you name the candidates who ran against Saddam?

Look, Algeria aint Sweden, as they say, but its making progress. As for movers and shakers, Indonesia is the largest muslim country by far. Much more important than some countries often mentioned here.

No coincidence? I agree with you. I didnt say Islam doesnt have major problems - I agree with Bernard Lewis that its a civilization that has had difficulty adjusting to modernity since 1690 or so. But there ARE plenty of muslims who do want democracy. And particularly in Iraq.

Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:02 Comments || Top||

#24  As for my quote about Indonesia's PM giving a standing ovation to a fellow Muslimspouting anti-semetic garbage that America was fighting the war in Iraq as a "proxy" for Israel, I think that is very telling, don't you? Our own President scolded the Malaysian PM, but Indonesia's high profile leader applauded the remarks. A political leader represents the electorate for better or worse, and Indonesia was negatively represented. A country who elected someone who agrees with such disgusting comments is not a stellar example of a "democracy", IMO. Furthermore, a popular military general, who is tainted with allegations of human rights violations in East Timor for one thing and corruption too, is the leading contender in Indonesia's upcoming elections. Is that a good sign for a democracy? Here's a recent article about Indonesia:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/indonesia/Story/0,2763,1184998,00.html"The forces of darkness are ready, waiting in the wings" April 03, 2004.
Alas, it's the Guardian, and no one believes anything in the Guardian because it only prints lies...however, sometimes there is truth...
...In its 53-year history of independence, Indonesia has only voted in free elections twice...Indonesia was borne on a wave of optimism following his fall. For three years, a massive movement of reform - "reformasi" - swept away many of the worst features of Suharto's rule. 1999 saw the first free elections since 1955....Indonesia is caught betwixt and between, half-reformed and half-unreformed. Part of the old regime has been dismantled, but the bulk of it remains intact and extremely influential. The military is hugely powerful, even though its wings have been clipped. The judiciary is riddled with corruption. Suharto is still a free man and, from behind the scenes, is using his vast wealth to pull strings. There is growing nostalgia, especially on Java, for the Suharto era of growth and stability. The threat of an authoritarian backlash and the return of the old regime lurk just beneath the surface...The problems of the new democracy are compounded by the fact that Indonesia is the only country in the region not to have recovered from the Asian crisis...The military, meanwhile, is beginning to regain some of its previous confidence. The greatest problem facing Indonesia is not its Islamic character, but how to govern such extraordinary diversity. The Suharto style was to unleash the army in an effort to destroy any opposition. East Timor may be the best-known case, but there are countless other examples of violent suppression across the islands. The underlying source of the military's power has been, and remains, its ability to pose as the saviour of the nation, the only force that can hold it together. ...In her handling of the movement for an independent Aceh, Megawati has shown no sign of breaking from this practice. On the contrary, she has given the military its head in the province. Until the Javanese elite, who effectively run the country, finds another, more consensual way of governing Indonesia, then force will always lie at the heart of government. It is this which poses the continuing danger to democracy, and which ultimately could lead to a more serious fragmentation of the country. The balance of Indonesian history - before and after independence - is overwhelmingly weighted in favour of the mailed fist rather than the velvet glove. This year's elections are testimony to the strength and courage of reformasi - but Indonesian democracy still hangs by a thin thread. The forces of darkness are waiting in the wings.


Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 16:08 Comments || Top||

#25  democracies are gonna vote for people we dont like or agree with. Yup.

And yes, on this the Guardian has an agenda. They dont like the military, cause it was right wing and pro-US. And anti-Islamist btw. So to them a candidate who hearkens back to the military era is "the forces of darkness".

Not surprising that Al-guardian only approves of elections in which people they like win.

But youve got it made all around - if the Islamists win, well that proves you letem vote, they vote for Islamists. Sukarnoputri wins, well theyve elected her of the evil handclapping. Not that she SAID what Muthahir said, but dammit she applauded. And if the rightist wins, well youve got your pals at the Guardian to tell you that its the forces of darkness.

Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:22 Comments || Top||

#26  What strange interpretation are you super- imposing on my rebuttals to you, LH?

Look, I'm the one who said a couple of posts ago that Muslims are unable to embrace or enjoy democracy and that a strong fisted dictator is the only kind of government that can keep Muslim populations from falling under the spell of religious extremists. I used the Guardian article to debunk your Kumbaya schtick about Indonesia being a moderately successful democracy. The Guardian may think military rule is bad, but I don't and in fact, I think it's often necessary in countries with significant Muslim populations.

Turkey, Albania, Algeria - they are all still afloat, and barely, because of the iron fist of the military keeping the regular folks in line and out of jihadic mischief.

It's you who thinks everyone, regardless of the culture and their religion, will flourish if they have access to democracy. I'm merely pointing out to you the fallacy of those idealist dreams. I think eventually Iraq will need a strong fisted Iraqi military leader or a leader backed by the Iraqi military to keep Iraq intact - kind of a benign Uncle Saddam, if you will. I think elections will merely be a facade.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 16:40 Comments || Top||

#27  Fine, ridicule to your heart's content the symbolic significance of the Indonesian PM applauding the Malaysian leader's anti-semetic words...have your laugh...but I think your bleeding heart tolerant forgiving self better get some reality glasses on and start understanding that there is a growing Muslim population in the world and leaders applauding anti-semetic words may not be such a wonderful "free thinking, democratic" thingie...
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 16:49 Comments || Top||

#28  But you, like al Guardian, seem to think that electing a right wing candidate with ties to the military = military rule.

And in Egypt and elsewhere strong fisted dictators have dismally failed to keep muslims from the spell of islamist extremists. Indeed the strength of Islamism in Iraq is itself a legacy of Saddam, who prevented the rise of civil society.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 16:49 Comments || Top||

#29  the strength of Islamism in Iraq is itself a legacy of Saddam, who prevented the rise of civil society.
Saddam was a secular albeit cruel ruler. Up until recent times when Saddam saw the propaganda value of taking on some "religious" ruler trappings, he could care two hoots about religion. Duh.

That's why he repressed Shiites with such "vigor." Saddam saw that practising Shiite Muslims could be dangerous to his rule and his health and Swiss bank account. I remember reading in Macleans magazine that Christians in Baghdad, interviewed after Saddam's fall, felt safer under Saddam's rule than they are now because they fell below his anti-Islamic radar. As for the Kurds, Saddam hated them for being Kurds like many Sunni dominated countries do - Turkey and Syria come to mind. Also, the Kurds were sitting too close to oilfield territory that Saddam wanted developed for future personal "investments."

As for civil society, Iraq had colleges, schools, hospitals, a judicial branch[albeit corrupt]-aren't those indicators of a civil society. As long as you didn't try to practise Shiite, Jewish, Catholic religion and you were not a Kurd, everything was happy under Uncle Saddam.
Posted by: rex || 06/29/2004 17:08 Comments || Top||

#30  schools, hospitals etc indicate a civil society - no, theyre an indication the place is developed is all. Civil society means institutions not under the control of the state - in Iraq, as under Communism, the schools, hospitals, etc WERE under control of the state. The only institutions with some degree of independence were the Mosques (though some more than others) - which is why the only "internals" with full credibility were the clerics.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 17:24 Comments || Top||

#31  Saddam was a secular albeit cruel ruler.

What a splendidly massive understatement.

As long as you didn't try to practise Shiite, Jewish, Catholic religion and you were not a Kurd, everything was happy under Uncle Saddam

You left out "...or become a moderately competent combat leader, run an independent newspaper, engage in currency exchange, have a beautiful daughter or wife that caught Uday or Kusay's eye, or annoy Saddam, his sons, or any other senior member of the Baath Party..."
Posted by: Pappy || 06/29/2004 21:52 Comments || Top||

#32  #23 But there ARE plenty of muslims who do want democracy. And particularly in Iraq.

And I say they don't want democracy enough, Liberalhawk. It is quite apparent to all what democracy entails compared with dictatorship. The entire (and quite disgusting) "hands-off" stance taken over Muqtada al Sadr should be adequate proof of just how generous American military and democratic processes continue to be. Iraqis d@mn well know the difference between Saddam's treachery and the relative freedoms they now enjoy after being liberated. No rocket science is involved. They have television and cellular phones, so communication is not a problem.

While I do feel a bit more gratitude should be shown, neither side should contemplate the other having to bow and scrape. And this is the matter's heart. Even if Iraq's government and people have the wisdom to see how resisting America is futile, there may be far too many who still envision making the Jews bow and scrape. It is that Fundamentalist core of Islamic Anti-Semitism which forms the nucleus of Militant Jihad.

I equate Militant Jihad with flat-out Nazism and global cultural genocide. Is anyone here at Rantburg willing to argue that basic comparison? Both are death-cult promoters of genocide that vary only in scale. I'll take the liberty of assuming this is the same diseased meme that .com fired at in his opening salvo.

I can only concur with much of the programmed insanity model being mentioned here. Psychopathic hatred, bigotry, theocracy and many other vampiristic parasitic elitist doctrines, be they held by the KKK, Nazis, Stalinists, Maoists or Islamists all represent the same irrational worldview that civilized people are obligated to defend against and overthrow whenever possible. No exceptions made or expected from others. And therein lies the rub. So many other allies and enemies alike indulge the continued existence of such hostile entities (or memes) and yet we Americans simply cannot do so any longer because our very survival hinges upon it. This being due solely to the United States' preeminent role as combined military superpower and pinnacle of secularism.

[Steve Martin]

Weeelllllllll Exxxxccuuuuuuuussssseeeeeee meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

[/SM]
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 22:25 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Israel Tanks Enter Gaza; Two Buildings Hit
Israeli tanks rolled into northern Gaza and gunships fired missiles at two buildings early Tuesday in what the military called a major drive to prevent Palestinian rocket fire from hitting Israel's border towns. Troops, bulldozers and tanks began crossing over the border into Gaza after amassing in Israeli territory throughout the night. Security officials predicted a prolonged reoccupation of some Palestinian areas. Despite the upsurge in violence, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said he remains determined to go ahead with his planned withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. Addressing lawmakers, Sharon pledged to speed up the evacuation of settlers who are ready to leave voluntarily.

The Israeli actions followed a Palestinian rocket attack in Sderot, a working-class Israeli town near Gaza. The missile landed just yards from a pair of nursery schools, killing a 3-year-old boy and a 49-year-old man. It was the first time in nearly four years of fighting that Israelis were killed by rockets from Gaza. Shortly after midnight, Israeli helicopters fired three missiles into a 16-story building housing the Hamas-linked media center Al-Jeel, injuring two people, witnesses said. Minutes later, helicopters also fired a missile at a building housing a metal workshop in the Nusseirat refugee camp in central Gaza, witnesses said. The army said Hamas used the center to release claims of responsibility and distribute inflammatory material. The workshop was used for making home-made rockets. Sharon met Monday afternoon with Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and other senior security officials to plan a response. "There is a war against terror, and we shall continue fighting terror regardless of disengagement," Israel's vice premier, Ehud Olmert, told Israel TV. He said Israel would have greater freedom of action after a withdrawal.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It seems we have a volunteer to be first in the barrel...
Posted by: mojo || 06/29/2004 2:34 Comments || Top||

#2  Short Term Relationships:

Mr. Caterpillar seeks naughty little Tunnel End for quick and meaningful exchange of views.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/29/2004 4:05 Comments || Top||

#3  IDF: "Now, who wants a whacking?"

Paleos: "Ooh Oooh!!! We do!
Posted by: Frank G || 06/29/2004 17:49 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Kuwait Prepares Indictments for Saddam
Kuwait has completed 200 major indictments against Saddam Hussein and his top aides for war crimes and could press for his death if international and Iraqi law allow, the justice minister said yesterday. “We have already completed 200 indictment files against Saddam and his top aides for various crimes like murder, rape, theft, in addition to war crimes and crimes against humanity,” Ahmed Baqer told AFP. Kuwait will demand maximum penalty for the former Iraqi dictator who ordered the Iraqi Army to invade the emirate on August 2, 1990, occupying it for seven months before being driven out by a US-led multinational coalition, Baqer said. “We will press for the death penalty for any crime that deserves capital punishment under international and Iraqi laws. This matter is being finalized by judicial authorities,” Baqer said.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  You know, beheading are in vogue right now.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/29/2004 2:26 Comments || Top||

#2  I was hoping that the Iraqis would let a Kuwaiti judge join the team.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:20 Comments || Top||

#3  International law headed by the ICC or UN or whatever that clusterF**k calls itself is going to howl when the Iraqis make Saddam do the rope dance.
Posted by: JerseyMike || 06/29/2004 7:57 Comments || Top||


Iranian diplomat detained then released by US forces in Iraq
Iran’s government Monday complained that one of its diplomats in Iraq had been briefly detained and questioned by US forces, accusing American troops of failing to respect his diplomatic status. “The Iranian government and the ministry of foreign affairs had protested the move. Fortunately this complaint was heard, and the diplomat is now back in his post,” cabinet spokesman Abdollah Ramazanzadeh told reporters. But he did complain that “those responsible did not apologise.” He was confirming press reports here that an indentified diplomat at the Islamic republic’s mission in Baghdad was detained by Iraqi police on Sunday while travelling to Baghdad by road from Iran and then handed over to US troops. The diplomat was reportedly released early on Monday. US officials frequently accuse Iran of supporting anti-coalition attacks in Iraq, a charge Iran vigorously denies.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  It was the Iranian accent, most likely. I'm bettin' they're kinda touchy about that sorta thing down round Basra way.

And no, no apologies. Beat it.
Posted by: mojo || 06/29/2004 2:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Let's see, you losers snatch 8 Brits, blindfold them, parade them in front of cameras, etc.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/29/2004 2:34 Comments || Top||

#3  Just another Iranian 'diplomatic' agent for jihad. They should have thrown him in the can!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/29/2004 2:37 Comments || Top||

#4  He made out much better than a Canadian journalist makes out in Tehran.

I wonder how he'll be treated by the Iraqis if the infiltrators keep whacking the local populus.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:19 Comments || Top||

#5  "...accusing American troops of failing to respect his diplomatic status"

"...an indentified diplomat at the Islamic republic’s mission in Baghdad..."

Iraq wasn't a sovereign country until 10:26 A.M. on a Monday, June 28, 2004 Iraqi time. I think there was no diplomatic status for anyone, nor were there any diplomatic missions between the time we (the Americans) declared a cease fire and when we returned the country to Iraqi rule.
Posted by: Larry Everett || 06/29/2004 3:58 Comments || Top||

#6  When I play Civilization II or III I always shoot any diplomat approaching any of my cities. If I wasn't already at war with them matters not - espionage and subversion always accompany a diplomat. So I kill 'em.
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 5:04 Comments || Top||

#7  Mr. .com sirrah,
I am pleased to be able to irrigate your fine land
for this I give you pottery secret.
Posted by: Ghandi || 06/29/2004 8:31 Comments || Top||

#8  G - LOL! I go for Iron-Working, Construction, Literacy, & Invention (Gunpowder) as my primary goals - pottery's on the Seafaring path!

But I'll give away Polytheism and Ceremonial Burial withou much of an argument!

Lol! Play on, brother!
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 8:51 Comments || Top||

#9  I used to hack one of the .ini files to have Queen Liz immediately have a man-o-war, nothing like cheating in solitarie I say, victimless crime don't ya know.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/29/2004 9:12 Comments || Top||

#10  dot com, my words are backed BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!

Wanna come play in the off-topic forum of Apolyton.net (The Civ site)? your views would stir things up there.


Oh, and you NEVER give up Ceremonial Burial (at least not in Civ2 - i dont play civ3) since its on the path to monarchy.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 06/29/2004 9:57 Comments || Top||

#11  The last spymaster they sent over was so obnoxious somebody (cough, cough) had him assassinated. So I have a feeling that his replacement was being given a little advance notice that he had either watch his Ps & Qs, or make sure his Mutual of Bam insurance policy is paid up.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 06/29/2004 10:33 Comments || Top||

#12  But he did complain that “those responsible did not apologise.”

Tough. Get over yourself.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/29/2004 10:55 Comments || Top||

#13  Was he predecessor the one who was knocked off by Volvo driving killers? Maybe that was a different incident. Something very incongrous about using a Volvo to perform an assasination. Or course, there *is* a Volvo that looks like it's meant to kill. That would be the 262 Bertone Coupe. A friend once referred to this model as the "King Gustav Hit Car". Indeed.
Posted by: Classical_Liberal || 06/29/2004 12:11 Comments || Top||

#14  Ship - I always choose the Celts and it depends upon the "world" whether or not I follow the seafaring route, heh, but I haven't cheated, yet!

LH - I'll go have a look, but if, as you imply, I am a different breed, then there would be little or no fun in it. I don't post in many places - even those where I am mainstream. I prefer to know who I am "conversing" with, heh. And you wouldn't dare use nukes!
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 20:37 Comments || Top||

#15  Ever play the Civ II scenarios with the aliens and the Jules Verne technologies? Loads of fun!
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/29/2004 20:55 Comments || Top||

#16  Dr - Funny you should mention the scenarios - I've never played them - mostly because I prefer building my own thing and knowing my strengths and weaknesses. I'll give it a try!
Posted by: .com || 06/29/2004 21:02 Comments || Top||


Four Explosions Rock Central Baghdad
At least four strong explosions shook the heart of the Iraqi capital early Tuesday, hours after the U.S.-run coalition transferred sovereignty to the interim Iraqi government. Three strong blasts reverberated through the city about 12:35 a.m. The cause of the blasts was unknown but it appeared the explosions occurred on the western side of the Tigris river where the U.S.-controlled Green Zone is located. A fourth, smaller blast occurred a few minutes after the initial volley.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Africa: Horn
11 Murdered in Somali Capital
Eleven militiamen were murdered Sunday in a battle to control a checkpoint south of Mogadishu, press reports said yesterday. The fighting began after a group of militiamen used heavy weapons to take control of the checkpoint from rival militiamen. “The incident took place late Sunday, claiming 11 men and wounding scores others,” said Hassan Mohamed Hashi, a former army officer. “The battle ...was purely motivated by greed,” said Ahmed Yasin Mohamud, a resident of the area. According to the reports, the attack was prompted by residents’ complaints that the militiamen were charging them high protection fees while failing to curb insecurity in southern Mogadishu.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  According to the reports, the attack was prompted by residents’ complaints that the militiamen were charging them high protection fees while failing to curb insecurity in southern Mogadishu.

"Guys, your service is inadequate, so we're terminating your checkpoint concession contract - permanently."
Posted by: Pappy || 06/29/2004 2:52 Comments || Top||

#2  Maybe the new group will squeegee your windshield as they hold you up - kind of as a PR Move/reach-around.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/29/2004 3:03 Comments || Top||

#3  I think they call this a "slow day" in Mogadishu.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/29/2004 10:56 Comments || Top||

#4  "Purely motivated by greed" huh? Boy that sure is worse than if it were motivated by a desire to dominate people, or perhaps out of revenge, spite or hatred. THAT would REALLY have sucked.
Posted by: Mac || 06/29/2004 14:39 Comments || Top||

#5  Heavens ta mergatroid, clashing warlords! Where will it end?
Posted by: Robert || 06/29/2004 18:15 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
‘Aziz leaked national secrets’
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Muslim League (PML) Information Secretary Muhammad Siddiqul Farooq on Monday accused Prime Minister in-waiting Shaukat Aziz of providing photographs of Khan’s Research Laboratories (KRL) to the Pentagon and CIA. “The nation does not expect Shaukat Aziz, who represented the United States and provided the CIA and Pentagon with photos of Khan’s Research Laboratories, to promote Pakistan’s national interests,” he said in a press statement.
Gawd forbid he should leak photos of KRL! I wonder if he did that while Abdul Qadeer Khan was selling the production from the labs?
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  According to SAAG; Aziz has US citizenship, and there are rumors that he is an Ahmadi, so he isn't exactly the most popular choice for PM. He has the support of both America and Saudi Arabia, but no support base of his own.
Posted by: Paul Moloney || 06/29/2004 4:45 Comments || Top||


Tribals to ask Zalikhels today to hand over Abbas
Ahmedzai Wazir elders will meet their Zalikhel sub-tribe counterparts today (Tuesday) to ask them to hand over Maulvi Abbas who is wanted by the government in connection with terrorist activities, sources in Wana told Daily Times on Monday. Malik Behram Khan, an Ahmedzai elder, said the jirga would demand that the Zalikhel elders hand over Maulvi Abbas to South Waziristan Agency’s political administration within 10 days or face action under tribal law.
Whoopdy doo. That's worked well so far, hasn't it?
"Hand him over or we start drumming!"
Asked what action would be taken against the Zalikhels if the demand was not met, Malik Behram said a Rs 1 million fine would be imposed on the sub-tribe and the houses of wanted tribesman would be demolished. “And if nothing happens, then we will ask the government to take action against the Zalikhels similar to that taken against the Yargulkhels.” Meanwhile, the 40-member delegation that met NWFP Governor Syed Iftikhar Hussain Shah late on Saturday night to appeal that the sanctions against the Ahmedzai Wazir for the last three weeks be lifted returned to Wana on Sunday. They met on Monday to discuss plans for action against non-cooperative tribes and wanted tribesmen. Mr Shah partially lifted sanctions for 10 days, only allowing Wazir tribesmen to sell vegetables and other fruits but turned down requests for opening the Wana Bazaar. The governor was initially reluctant to lift any of the sanctions, saying the Ahmedzai Wazirs were not seriously considering the government’s demands.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Pakistan will not bow to kidnappers
Pakistan will not bow to the demands of kidnappers in Iraq who have threatened to behead a Pakistani driver they seized near Balad, north of Baghdad, the government said on Monday. A Pakistan Foreign Ministry statement named the hostage as Amjad Hafeez from Rawalakot. “This Pakistani driver was employed by a company in Kuwait to ferry food supplies into Iraq,” a foreign ministry spokesman said. “Our liaison officer in Iraq is in touch with Iraqi authorities and the religious leaders to try and secure his release. The Pakistani government has a stand that we condemn all forms of terrorism and our policy is that we don’t accede to any conditions or demands made by hostage takers.” In videotape aired on Al Arabiya television on Sunday the kidnappers said they would behead the captive.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They will not need to if the driver is muslim. He will be released unharmed, just as the three Turks were.
Posted by: jawa || 06/29/2004 10:50 Comments || Top||


Legislation for private schools soon: Masood
LAHORE: Legislation to improve the standard of education in private schools and make them legal is being prepared, Punjab Education Minister Mian Imran Masood said on Monday.
Yup. Any time now...
The minister was meeting with officials from the Quami Taleemi Ittehad (QTI), an association of private school owners. Mr Masood heard their demands and supported the setting up of a committee to review the demands. The committee will consist of two directors of public instruction of elementary and secondary education and three QTI representatives. Mr Masood said that the government was seeking cooperation from the private sector in the promotion of education. These institutions provide better education and facilities compared to government schools, but the parents of students often complained about the commercial attitude of the management and heavy tuition fees. Besides, there is a high incidence of malpractice where people sometimes start a school, collect heavy amounts of admission fees and then disappear, he said.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Gunmen Disguised as Soldiers Kill 7 Afghan Cops
Gunmen wearing military uniforms killed seven Afghan policemen in a weekend attack near the western border with Iran, an official said yesterday. “Seven highway police officers were killed in an ambush by unknown assailants,” Interior Ministry spokesman Lutfullah Mashal told AFP. An investigation was under way into the attack which occurred Sunday in Farah province on a key highway linking the main southern city of Kandahar with the western oasis city of Herat. The attackers were traveling in two Land Cruiser vehicles and were wearing soldiers’ uniforms, Mashal said. “Either they were terrorists or they were drug mafia ... nobody knows,” the spokesman said.
"But I repeat myself", the spokesman continued.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Uniformed drug mafia?
Posted by: Capt America || 06/29/2004 2:17 Comments || Top||

#2  Well they DO have snazzy uniforms. And they wear a poppy on their lapels, I'm told.
Posted by: Steve White || 06/29/2004 2:19 Comments || Top||

#3  "They were terrorists or they were drug mafia...nobody knows" Or maybe they were just ordinary Muslim holy men?
Posted by: virginian || 06/29/2004 8:41 Comments || Top||


8 Held for Editor’s Murder
Police detained eight suspects in connection with a bomb attack that killed a newspaper editor in southwestern Bangladesh, an official said yesterday. Humayun Kabir, 56, editor of Bengali-language newspaper Dainik Janmabhumi, was killed Sunday outside his office in Khulna city, 140 km southwest of the capital Dhaka. Witnesses said assailants hurled at least three bombs at Kabir as he stepped out of his car along with his two sons and daughter. Kabir’s 27-year-old son, Asif, was wounded in the attack, while the two other children escaped unhurt. Kabir’s office is located in a three-story apartment building he owned.

“We have launched an investigation into the killing and have so far detained eight suspects,” said Akbar Ali, a senior police officer in Khulna. Ali said police raided several homes in Khulna late Sunday and picked up the suspects. He provided no further details. He said the motive of Kabir’s murder is unclear. Hours after the attack, the outlawed Purbo Bangla Communist Party claimed responsibility for the killing. An unnamed caller told a local newspaper Kabir was killed in a campaign by underground communist cadres in a bid to wipe out “class enemies”. Colleagues, however, have said Kabir had recently received threats over the telephone from extortionists, who were demanding 50,000 takas ($900). Kabir’s newspaper also had published articles on organized crime in the city. Journalists in Bangladesh often face threats, assault or even death for reporting on sensitive topics like corruption, political violence or organized crime, media rights groups say.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 11:45:27 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


3 terrorists and 2 Levies killed in clash in Kohlu
QUETTA: Three terrorists and two Levies were killed and another four soldiers were injured in a clash in Kohlu, said General Shaukat Changezi on Monday. He said the encounter began at Manjhar 27 kilometres from Maiwand in Kohlu Agency as the law enforcement agencies were attempting to apprehend those wanted for rocket grenade attacks and land mines blasts in the area. The director general said the exchange of fire started from Sunday noon and continued till late night. Two levies men were killed while two others were injured, he said, adding three terrorists were also killed and their two accomplices were injured in the encounter. Air Commodore Shaukat Haider on Monday talking to a private TV network said that the operation was part of the ongoing crackdown on terrorists in Kohlu and nearby areas. He said large numbers of terrorists were hiding in Mandra where fighting had continued for the last two days.
Posted by: Fred || 06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:



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Two weeks of WOT
Tue 2004-06-29
  US expels 2 Iranians; videotaping transportation and monuments in NYC
Mon 2004-06-28
  Iraqi handover of power takes place 2 days early
Sun 2004-06-27
  10 Afghans Killed After Vote Registration
Sat 2004-06-26
  Jamali resigns
Fri 2004-06-25
  Another strike on a Fallujah safehouse
Thu 2004-06-24
  Fallujah ruled Taliban-style
Wed 2004-06-23
  Saudis Offer Militants Amnesty
Tue 2004-06-22
  Korean beheaded in Iraq
Mon 2004-06-21
  Iran detains UK naval vessels
Sun 2004-06-20
  Algerian Military Says Nabil Sahraoui Toes Up
Sat 2004-06-19
  Falluja house blast kills 20 Iraqis
Fri 2004-06-18
  U.S. hostage beheaded
Thu 2004-06-17
  Turks Nab Four In Nato Summit Bomb Plot
Wed 2004-06-16
  Hosni shuffles off mortal coil?
Tue 2004-06-15
  Zarqawi sez jihad's not going great

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