An artificial reef created to improve marine life is attracting bull sharks to the water off Coral Cove Park, forcing officials to close the beaches almost daily. What if if places like France were reefs...
"These sharks are territorial," lifeguard Rick Moore said Sunday. "Whatâs happened is you have an accumulation of tropical fish." The limestone-boulder reef was created earlier this summer to draw fish to the area just south of Coral Cove Park. ...with attractive environments...
Since then, lifeguards have called swimmers out of the water for periods ranging from 30 minutes to all day because of the sharks. and the terrorist/militant/freedom fighters...
Palm Beach County Ocean Rescue officials said the countyâs parks had previously closed sporadically for shark sightings but never as consistently as in the past month at Coral Cove. ...were just oppressed minorities...
"If they want to swim in our swimming area we just kind of turn our swimming area over to them," district supervisor Chuck Price said. ...with special cultural needs?
Nah, could never happen.
Posted by: Mark IV ||
08/25/2003 11:09:42 PM ||
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Heh. Reads like a Burma-Shave ad.
Posted by: Uncle Joe ||
08/26/2003 0:00 Comments ||
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Ahah! It's the rest of the story...
Warplanes of U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan pounded Taliban positions in remote central mountains Monday while government troops captured dozens of suspected rebels. More than 450 Afghan government troops and dozens of U.S. soldiers backed by aircraft were chasing up to 600 Taliban guerrillas in the Dai Chopan region of the restive Zabul province, Dai Chopan police chief Juman Khan told Reuters.
The Talibs actually claim to control Zabul. They just haven't told the inhabitants yet...
"The planes have started pounding the Taliban positions and our foot soldiers are firing at fighters who expose themselves in an area," he said. "We are locked in heavy battle. The planes are flying overhead as I am talking. You may be able to hear the sound of explosions which are from artillery." More likely bombs from the aircraft.
Khan said about 40 suspects had been detained, although there might be innocent villagers among them. There had been no contact with the Taliban fighters since Saturday, when five government soldiers were killed in an ambush by a group of guerrillas who lost four men in an ensuing skirmish. Khan described the Taliban force scattered over rugged terrain as one of the biggest concentrations since the fundamentalist Muslim group was overthrown in a U.S.-led campaign in late 2001. He said it included fighters blamed for attacks in Zabul and neighboring Uruzgan province Friday and Saturday. Just like I thought, they had a couple of successful attacks on police stations, got overconfident, massed their forces, and got caught.
Among them was thought to be Mullah Dadullah, one of the Talibanâs top commanders accused of ordering the execution of a foreign Red Cross worker this year, he said. Dad?
The operation in Dai Chopan follows a surge in violence in the past two weeks across Afghanistan in which more than 100 people have been killed, many in attacks blamed on a resurgent Taliban. Afghan authorities say the Taliban have been operating in increasingly large groups in recent weeks to attack government troops, officials and aid workers, mostly in the south and southeast. The larger the group, the better the target.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 9:37:46 AM ||
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Oooooh, target-rich enviroment! Go for it, Air Force!
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
08/25/2003 9:56 Comments ||
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That's "environment" - if I could type, I'd be dangerous. :-p
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
08/25/2003 9:58 Comments ||
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Just like I thought, they had a couple of successful attacks on police stations, got overconfident, massed their forces, and got caught.
That's guerrilla warfare by definition - attacking isolated outposts or convoys with superior numbers at a time and place of the Taliban's choosing. The problem they're running into is precision air support, in form of attack helicopters, warplanes and armed UAV's on patrol. (I don't think we have much artillery on the ground, and their limited range coupled with Afghanistan's rugged terrain, makes the use of big guns a difficult proposition).
#4
It's been a good day for hunting: KABUL (Reuters) - Up to 50 Taliban fighters were killed in a big joint operation by U.S. and Afghan forces on Monday in the southern province of Zabul, a spokesman for the governor said. "The deaths were the result of heavy bombing by U.S. forces and ground attacks by government forces," Hamdullah Watandoost told Reuters. "We have seen 40 to 50 dead bodies."
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 10:55 Comments ||
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40 to 50 dead bodies.......probably more casualties, but the Reuters guys don't have the stomach for assessing miscellaneous scattered body parts.......a 250/500/1000 pounder normally doesn't leave the body intact.
#10
The Virgins will be working OT tonight. Wonder if they have a union...
Posted by: Ned ||
08/25/2003 12:41 Comments ||
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The attack was part of joint operations between the U.S. military and local Afghan militia hunting down Taliban fighters blamed for a series of attacks mostly in the south and east of the country, according to Ahmad Khan, a spokesman for the governor of Zabul province. Khan said Afghan forces collected the bodies of at least 50 Taliban fighters after the bombardment. The bombing destroyed a Taliban mountain camp near the border with Pakistan, he said.
We tag them and they bag them, I like these joint ops. Keep hitting them all the way back to the border, then take pictures of where the survivors go.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 12:55 Comments ||
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Stoping at the border is the problem,Steve.
The VC had the same deal,attack then scurry across the border into Loas and Cambodia.These attacks are going to continue until we go in and clean out the roches.
From Summer 2003 RAND Review....
NATO and the European Union (EU) have certainly endured crises in the last year, but such conflicts will ultimately lead to stronger, more unified organizations, according to Franceâs Ambassador to the United States Jean-David Levitte, who spoke recently at RAND. The ambassador acknowledged that the U.S.-led war on Iraq had shaken NATO but said that the organization has since recovered. NATO enlargement also signals the beginning of a new era, he said. Thatâs an understatement.
"We are transforming NATO into a completely different organization," said Levitte. "The Soviet Union has disappeared, and the threat now is French intransigence and terrorism." Similarly, Levitte noted that although the EU has suffered from dissension, it is also on the road to reform. In fact, past experience has demonstrated that a European crisis is sometimes the catalyst for progress. "Itâs when we have a challenge, when something goes wrong, that we say âletâs do it better next time.â" Iâll let Rantburgers reply to that one!
Levitte reminded the audience that the European Constitution is now being prepared. "If all goes well, in a few months, Europeans will have a presidentâa man, a voice, a face for the European Union." However, Levitte emphasized that the goal of creating a constitutionally unified Europe is not to build a counterweight to U.S. power. Developing a common defense and foreign policy will help create "a common force strong enough to take care of crises at our own doors," he said, referring to the past Balkan crises. To do that you are going to need horspower in you military, and that will take some serious funding and manpower commitments. If you want to run with the big dogs, you better stop pissing like a puppy.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 8:26:19 PM ||
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The EU will NEVER fund a truly capable military until they cut their socialist spending - something no European will allow to happen. Their programs are all self-defeating. What will eventually happen is the implosion of the "heart" of socialist Europe (France, Belgium, possibly Germany), which will create a vaccuum strong enough to pull several other European states down with it. The collapse will be immense, painful, and last for months, if not years. Scandinavia would be wise to opt out now, along with Italy and Spain. The trade and tariff agreements, 'open' borders, and similar treaties should remain - they're beneficial. A united Europe, especially under a French-authored 'Constitution', will be a disaster.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 20:41 Comments ||
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All aboard for Europe's new Treaty of Versailles!
#3
I predict a short life (relatively) for the EU - french bullying or the franco/German economic ills will kill the bon homie. I wouldn't be surprised to see french economic duplicity and spying be the cause.....whores
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 20:58 Comments ||
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Another frog croaks. France expects to triple their "power" by being France and by manipulating the EU and NATO. Hell, give 'em the U.N. too. It can't move to Paris fast enough to suit me. When all their diplomatic maneuvering is done, GWB and I still don't give a hoot what they have to say about anything that counts.
Posted by: Tom ||
08/25/2003 21:05 Comments ||
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"If all goes well, in a few months, Europeans will have a presidentâa man, a voice, a face for the European Union."
Umm...yay ?
(Looks around, sees he is alone, walks away redfaced)
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
08/25/2003 21:25 Comments ||
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"....the problem is terrorism."
NO,the problem is Islamic terrorism,not some vague,anonymous terrorist.If you don't know what the problem is,you can't solve it.
Posted by: Stephen ||
08/25/2003 21:47 Comments ||
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Lots of luck, Euro folks. You'll need plenty of it with guys like this in charge.
A Corsican nationalist militant was killed in a drive-by shooting last night on the French-ruled Mediterranean island, police sources said. Maurice Galeani, 50, was shot several times by two men on a motorcycle as he rode a scooter through Ajaccio in the southwest of the island, which has been plagued by decades of violence linked to demands for independence from mainland France. Thereâs another one of those killer motorcycles.
Police were hunting for the attackers, who managed to escape. Galeani, who was previously affiliated with the Corsican National Liberation front (FLNC), had been convicted in 1987 for his role in two bomb attacks. Corsica rejected a French government offer of limited autonomy in a referendum in July. Internal feud or asassinated by the brutal French occupation forces? I think this decades long conflict demands intervention by the United Nations!
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 11:21:55 AM ||
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More likely related to drug or extortion business. The independentists are heavily mingled with the Corsican maffia in such kinds of deals (look at the crumbling of the Bastia stadium who caused over a hundred dead and may hundred wounded). BTW, when asked how Corsica would fund itself after the independency they answer "we would form a Union with Sardinia and Sicily". I am really sorry to dispel your romantic ideas about Corsica's "freedom fighters".
BTW the independentist get about 10% of the votes so Corsica is about as "occupied" as say, California or Texas.
#2
Why does France maintain ownership of an offshore island of culterally seperate inhabitants? Are the French imperialist?
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 15:17 Comments ||
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First: Because when Corsica was occupied by Italians the inhabitants shot at them
Second: Because the people who want secession are a _small_ minority.
Third: Because there are more Corsicans outside the island than it and they don't suffer any discrimination. There have been Corsicans ministers and, there was even one of them who became chief of state. :-) Can you say the same thing respective to your minorities?
Fourth: Try to forget about Chirak (a bastard), and what France has done under his misleadership.
Look at the situation dispassionately: why aren't you asking the same thing about Sicily, Sardinia, Baleares, Creta or the Canary Islands (where a bansd of nutsos who are about 1% of the populatuion insist in that Canary people are Africans and should join Morocco). The fact Chirac is a bastard should not alter your judgement.
#4
Ah, JFM, I think Steve D was being sarcastic. I do think it's funny that they call Corsica a "French-ruled" island. Hmmmm, why not French-occupied? The French are so wildly hypocritical, phony and just plain annoying that they make a great target.
And JFM, that Corsican chief of state you mentioned, that wouldn't be Napoleon Bonaparte would it?
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/25/2003 20:33 Comments ||
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I was being sarcastic, but hadn't realized that Corsica had such a rich background. Almost pulled into port there once for a Christopher Columbus celebration but the weather was too rough. Evidently, Corsica is one of several "birthplaces" of Columbus. Corsica sounds like Crete - unique in culture but just as happy not to be independent.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 21:37 Comments ||
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France expressed objections to placing Hamas and Islamic Jihad on the European Union(EU)âs list of "terror organizations", according to an Israeli report on Monday. Israelâs Yediot Aharonot website reported that diplomatic advisor to French President Jacques Chirac, Maurice Gourdault-Montagne, told the Israeli ambassador in France, Nissim Zvilli, during a weekend meeting, that there is no evidence that these two organizations are "terror groups."
"Nope. Nope. Not them. No evidence at all..."
"If we find that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are indeed terror groups opposed to peace, we may have to change the EUâs stand," Gordo conveyed. "However, we mustnât limit ourselves to one, clear cut, position."...
"Certainly not one that's grounded in reality..."
Posted by: lux ||
08/25/2003 8:21:40 AM ||
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Ah yes,one more reason to despise the terrorist loving,bend over and grab your ankles French.You know the same people urat wants to"crawl"into bed with.
#2
This is such a mind-boggling, jaw-dropping, incredibly stunning piece of denial that I can't think any real response to it.
At best the French goverment is off its meds, smoking some very serious week or, living in some parallel universe.
Posted by: Jim K ||
08/25/2003 8:49 Comments ||
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What the #$#@!!! is going on here?
Do you suppose that the Frogs are doing this because they think they are safe and that by sucking up to the lunatic fringe wackos in the fundementalist movement they are buying peace at home with their vast, fermenting mass of moslem North African expatriates???
I think jaw dropping is just not strong enough.
I believe the EU has trully gone mad. There is nothing they will not stoop to doing if they can thwart US or British actions ANYWHERE.
#11
I think this simply reflects their own anti-Semitic and Muslim-colonizing past. They are in total denial of the mess that their own hate and colonialism has fueled.
Have to go. I have an urge to play Frogger...
Posted by: Tom ||
08/25/2003 12:40 Comments ||
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In the 1973 OPEC oil embargo, much of Europe was squeezed on gasoline, which was up the food chain from crude oil. France let OPEC and the arabs influence their foreign policy, so they had all the petroleum they wanted, while lots of Europeans coped with shortages.
Now, over a generation later, France is doing the same thing. People are shocked because a new generation of people in the world are discovering this.
I have lived for 55 years, kept well read, and am still shocked that a nation can stoop so low and literally sell their souls to the arabs. Pretty disgusting.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 13:19 Comments ||
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Have to go. I have an urge to play Frogger...
Poorly, I hope.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
08/25/2003 14:18 Comments ||
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I'm starting to get truly mad with my Western neighbors. Not that the German government has handled all this a lot better but as far as I know Germany supports the EU move to outlaw Hamas. Fischer's latest declarations seem to echo those of Powell, not of Villepin.
Btw more and more CDU-leaders (Merkel, Schäuble) favor sending Geman troops to Iraq to help. I predict Schröders fall for next year (once unemployment hits 5 million).
#15
While I think the French position is silly and will haunt them in futre (they could learn from the Saudis about that), I have to point out that this absurdity has precedent elsewhere. Or have we forgotten that Sinn Fein held seats in Parliament while the Provos were still setting bombs in London?
Posted by: John Anderson ||
08/25/2003 14:34 Comments ||
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True German Ally,
Thank you for saying that. But how can you predict Schroeder's fall next year? Doesn't he have a 4 year deal? Or is there some kind of recall clause like in California?
Posted by: g wiz ||
08/25/2003 14:47 Comments ||
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Does this really surprise anyone? Please let's be serious, oK? Everyone please repeat after me: The French republic is an enemy state of the USA. Pure and simple.
I wish it was simply only business, as some have stated. But no, deep down in their dark, envious soul, most, if not all Frenchmen, hate America and its success, and especially America's worldwide status and influence. It only naturally follows that they would hate and detest her staunchest ally, that shitty little country, Israel.
Remember, it was not all that long ago that the international language of commerce and diplomacy was the lingua Franca. It was usurped by the Anglo-Saxon/American cultural hegemon, and will never, ever, ever be dominant again. Thus the best the Frenchies can do is hope for the destruction of the American state, even if it means the destruction of their own trough Muslim terror bombs and infiltration of their culture and country. This utterly nihilistic approach only serves to highlight the mind-set of utter despondency and defeat now well established in the cranium of most Frenchmen. Sad. Truly sad.
#18
John Anderson, that's a quirk of democracy I'm afraid. Not an utterly avoidable foreign policy decision. Elected Sinn Fein MPs have never taken up their seats in Westminster, as a result of their refusal to swear the obligatory oath of allegiance to the British monarch.
Interesting little known fact: the first woman to be elected a British MP was the oddly named Constance Georgina Markievicz, aka Countess Markievicz, in 1918, although as she never sat in Parliament few are aware of the fact.
#19
g wiz, no, I wish we had a recall clause. Schroeder has a razor thin majority in parliament and the SPD does have a few sane members, too. Same with the Greens. Funny enough the Greens are ready for more radical economic reforms than the SPD.
But I did not say that SPD/Greens will fall next year, only Schroeder. His popularity rates are dismal and most Germans think that he isn't able to do ANYTHING about Germany's problems. If he doesn't throw the towel, somebody will do it for him, after the next winter of discontent.
#20
The French hate everyone, even themselves. In that, they mirror the Arabs. The French have been fighting since Waterloo to be relevant again, and failing repeatedly. To the French, anything that does not accept and reflect the glory of France is as nothing, it doesn't exist. One of the serious side effects of this national malady is that everybody gets to the point where they're so tired of the French they begin to excise them from their everyday activities. This, in turn, makes the French more angry, and the circle continues until the only way the French can get ANY attention is by doing something so incredibly stupid that it cannot be ignored. In this, the French are quite similar to infants during their "terrible twos" period. Unfortunately, while infants grow out of this childishness, the French have made a virtue of it. God help France's neighbors. Maybe we can persuade one of the drug companies to supply tranquilizers and painkillers at cost to those that have to experience the French 'culture' first-hand.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 16:12 Comments ||
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I don't know why we're all huffy-puffy about our little French friends. We already knew that they are, and always will be, as useless as teats on a nun, balls on a cow, and/or screen doors on a submarine.
I'm starting to really think the real reason they're doing all of these stupid things as of late (read as the last 50 years) is because it keeps them in the news. They're The Forgotten Power TM and they just can't accept it. They don't really do anything of note, with the possible exception of dying in droves when the sun shines.
They are really good being theatrical media whores at the UN. Aside from that, and the dying thing, they don't do much.
Oh, wait! They did change the term "e-mail" to "See Pierre! I told you we'd make the nightly news again!"
Did anyone, besides me notice that they had to die way more noticably and in far greater numbers then anyone in the rest of Europe.
That's because they're superior to the rest of us.
Medical Reform Hint to Pres Joke Jockstrap:
"TELL YOUR PEOPLE TO DRINK MORE WATER!!!"
I'm sure that the French Medical Association will be reeling from this amazing new medical breakthrough. You even have my permission to tell the world that you thought it up yourself. (Like you weren't going to anyhow.)
Note, I would like to say that I am deeply sorry to all nuns, cows, and submarines that I may have offended. It was totally wrong for me to compare you to the French.
Lastly, I would like to thank God above that Murat and his "Arab and Persian peoples" are as ass-backwards and f**ked up as they are. If anyone of those middle eastern cuntries were the leading superpower, the world would be in flames by now.
Posted by: Paul ||
08/25/2003 16:49 Comments ||
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Unfortunately Paul, even though the French Republic is, for all intents and purposes, impotent, they still manage to create a lot of problems, and just generally make things a lot harder to accomplish for the rest of us.
Through their influence in the UN (why is this has-been power still part of the security counsel, btw? Like the question, why is Arafat still alive, one of the great mysteries of our age), their influence in the EU (out of all proportion to their strength), their bribery of former colonies in Africa, and just as a beacon of supposed streangth and steadfastness to all leftist 5th columninsts the world over, including the US, they are a very painfull thorn in the side of all moral Western liberal democracies. They punch above their weight because they have managed to seduce a large portion of peoples and countries that they are still relevant. What they need is a very good bitch-slapping to humiliate them and put them in their place.
#24
"by sucking up to the lunatic fringe wackos in the fundementalist movement they are buying peace at home"
BINGO! You have just won a vacation package for two to lovely Paris, France! The package includes a 6 night stay at the elite 5-star L'Hotel de Weasel in the heart of Paris minutes from the Chumps Elysees, a 5 day metro & museum pass, a bus tour of Versailles, and complimentary limo transfers from/to CDG airport. Enjoy!
When Mohammad Saqib Abdul Hamid Nachan walked into a Mumbai courtroom and surrendered in April, the Mumbai Police thought they had silenced the Lashkar-e-Taiba orchestra that has terrorised Mumbai for the last nine months. Mondayâs murderous twin bombings at the Zaveri Bazaar and the Gateway of India have made clear that much of the orchestra, as well as its conductor, are still at large. Before todayâs tragic killings, 17 persons had been killed and 189 injured in a series of five blasts that began on December 2, 2002. Eleven suspects, led by Nachan, were arrested in Maharashtra for two of the serial bombings; one, Imran Rehman Khan, was deported from the United Arab Emirates where he had fled after the first attack. There is evidence, however, that the arrested bomb-makers were just part of a large pool of trained terrorists. The terror offensive seems linked, furthermore, to a vicious cycle of communal terror and counter-terror.
No one is yet wholly certain about the authors of todayâs bombings, but the available evidence suggests they may be linked to the explosions that have taken place since December. What is most intriguing about this series of explosions â at first reminiscent of the Mumbai serial bombings of 1993 â is that they seem to involve individuals and organisations very different from those associated with that carnage. None of those arrested for the recent bombings has any connection with the mafia, which carried out the 1993 outrage. Instead, many of the cadre seem to be drawn from the ultra-orthodox Gorba faction of the Ahl-e-Hadis, a conservative Islamic sect that rejects the mainstream practice of interpreting scripture in the light of contemporary circumstances. Much of the Lashkar cadre is loyal to the Ahl-e-Hadis, although the sectâs religious leaders do not endorse violence.
Not in public, anyway. Ahle e-Hadith in Pakland is a wahhabi sect...
Islamist terrorism in Mumbai has a complex history. Its operations long predate the 1993 terror strikes. In 1985, Ahl-e-Hadis activists met at the Mominpura mosque in Mumbai and set up the Tanzim Islahul Muslimeen (TIM), a group intended to defend Muslims against communal attacks. Three of those present at the meeting went on to become key figures in pan-India terrorist warfare unleashed by the Lashkar. Azam Ghauri, a Peopleâs War member who flirted briefly with Maoism before turning to religion, was killed in an April 2000 encounter with the Andhra Pradesh Police at Karimnagar. Abdul Karim `Tundaâ, nicknamed for an arm deformed when a bomb-making exercise went wrong, went on to command the Lashkarâs operations outside Jammu and Kashmir. The third was Dr. Jalees Ansari, a Maharashtra Government-employed doctor who was arrested for his role in setting off seven separate bomb explosions on trains to mark the first anniversary of the demolition of the Babri Masjid. Ansari claimed he acted to avenge his experiences of communal hatred and bigotry.
The usual exercise in Dire Revenge™...
Many of the dozen-odd young men now arrested for the recent series of bombings in Mumbai seem to be driven by the same desire for revenge. Mohammad Nachan first encountered Bhiwandi riot victims when many of those displaced by violence there settled in his village, Padgha, near Thane. Deeply moved by their suffering, Nachan maintained contact with several riot victims until he was recruited a decade later by the now-banned Students Islamic Movement of India. From the late 1980s, Indian intelligence officials believe, Nachan began to regularly recruit Muslim youth for weapons training in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The contacts for this process, officials say, were made during five visits to Pakistan and Bangladesh between 1989 and 1991.
In 1992, Nachan was ordered to join Operation K2, an ambitious ISI plan to create a common pan-India infrastructure for Khalistan and Kashmir terrorists. Nachan was tasked with hiring safehouses where cadre could hide out and weapons caches smuggled across the Gujarat border could be stored. Lal Singh, the Khalistan terrorist tasked with running Operation K2, was subsequently arrested in one of the most celebrated Indian intelligence coups of the murderous Punjab insurgency. Nachan served part of his life term before being released in October 2001. Out of jail, the Mumbai police say, Nachan promptly revived his SIMI contacts, resumed recruitment of terror trainees, and provided shelter to Lashkar units in Kalyan and Thane. Now charged with a direct role in the December 2002 Ghatkopar bus bombing, which claimed two lives, and the March Mulund-Karjat train bombing, Nachan denies the charges.
"Nope. Nope. Wudn't me."
Todayâs events have made clear that Nachan is not the only â or even the biggest â Lashkar fish swimming in Mumbaiâs troubled waters. The search for the conductor of the longest-running terror bombing campaign any major Indian city has ever seen will now have to start afresh.
I hate to point out the obvious, but the "conductor" is Hafiz Saeed. Perhaps somebody should bump him off?
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/25/2003 6:32:21 PM ||
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More background on how intractable the fighting is - goes back 450 years
Under tight security, an Indian court received an archaeological report Friday aiming to resolve a fight over a religious site claimed by Hindus and Muslims that has dragged on for decades. The documents from a 4Âœ-month government-sponsored dig at the demolished Babri Mosque â destroyed by a Hindu mob in 1992 â were expected to be released by judges on Monday, High Court official Narendra Prasad told The Associated Press. Archaeologists had searched the site at Ayodhya in search of remnants of an ancient temple that modern-day Hindu nationalists claim once stood there. The trial over whether Hindus or Muslims own the site started more than half a century ago and moves at a snailâs pace, with months passing between hearings. The dispute has become a key and volatile issue for the future of troubled relations between Indiaâs majority Hindus and minority Muslims. Court employees said copies of the report were delivered under tight security and were being kept under guard.
Hindu groups say a temple to their supreme god, Rama, at the site was destroyed 450 years ago by a Muslim Mogul emperor, Babar, who built the Babri Mosque. They have installed an idol there and demand that the government give them the land to build a temple on ground that they believe is Ramaâs birthplace. Ayodhya, in northern Uttar Pradesh state, is one of Hinduismâs seven sacred cities. Muslim groups say there is no proof the site was Ramaâs birthplace, and have insisted the land be returned to them so they can build a new mosque. The excavation started March 12 on the orders of a special court. The Archaeological Survey of India, a government agency, unearthed some 1,360 artifacts, including bangles, earthen stoves, pieces of bone and parts of pillars and figurines, a member of the excavation team said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 1:49:56 PM ||
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Duck and cover time: ASI 'finds' temple, Muslim front says no While the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) today said that it had found features of a temple at the Babri Masjid site, the All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) alleged that these findings were "without any basis". ASI's findings have been "concocted" at the instance of the Vajpayee Government and particularly under "pressure" from Union ministers Jagmohan and Murli Manohar Joshi, the AIMPLB claimed.
"This report is totally inconsistent with the interim reports submitted earlier", Board Secretary Mohammed Abdul Rahim Quraishi who is also President All India Majlis Tameer-e-Millat said in a statement. "The ASI team has very conveniently overlooked the depth at which grave and human bones were found because its was proof of Muslim habitation even earlier to the construction of Babri Masjid. Quraishi said a team of well known archeologists including Prof Suraj Bhan had visited the site and inspected the excavated pits and was of opinion that there was evidence of an earlier mosque beneath the structure of Babri Masjid.
"I don't care how old your temple is, us muslims wuz here first!"
Earlier today, the ASI reported to the High Court at Lucknow that its excavations found distinctive features of a 10th century temple beneath the Babri Masjid site. The 574-page ASI report consisting of written opinions and maps and drawings was opened before the full Lucknow bench of the Allahabad High Court this morning. The report said there was archaeological evidence of a massive structure just below the disputed structure and evidence of continuity in structural activities from the 10th century onwards up to the construction of the disputed structure (Babri Mosque). Among the excavation yields it mentioned were stone and decorated bricks as well as mutilated sculptures, carved architectural members, and 50 pillar bases in association with a huge structure. The archaeological evidence and other discoveries from the site were indicative of remains, which are distinctive features found associated with the temples of north India, the ASI report said.
I guess this means war, right?
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 15:15 Comments ||
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#2
I guess this means war, right?
When doesn't it?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
08/25/2003 15:34 Comments ||
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#3
I guess this means war, right?
If the Muslims begin waging war over this, I think the most appropriate thing to do is to turn the evidence over to the Indian people, whip them into a religious frenzy, and send them into Pakistan with large, sharpe knives they can use to shave the young Muslim men. From throat to crotch, in one quick slash. There are 650 million people in India, about 42 million in Pakistan.
Offer Bugtiland to the Sikhs for a homeland. That should help things out a bit...
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 16:18 Comments ||
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#4
This gives me an interesting idea...
offering Sikhs free homesteads in Kashmir.
The only requirement is that they have to defend their own homes.
#5
As a Christian I feel denied. We've only got one "sacred" city and then only certain parts Jeruselem are really sacred in my book and then I am prfectly willing to share it with the Jews and the Muslims. But the Hindus and Muslims. Every freaking time we turn around they've got another sacred city popping up. Next thing we know Little Rock will be one too!
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire ||
08/25/2003 19:05 Comments ||
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#6
I know what you mean SWHDNVFWP. I think we should start making fun of this trend by making sure to insert the phrase "the holy city of" before any mention of American towns ("the holy City of Cleveland", "the holy City of Austin", etc etc etc.)
The mainstream media will of course continue to RIDICULOUSLY pretend that any thing stamped Muslim could actually be "holy", but the rest of us don't have to play along!
Social studies textbooks in the Urdu language, printed by the government and used in government-run schools and institutions, fudge facts and indoctrinate students with a jaundiced worldview. The most comprehensive analyses of this phenomenon in Pakistan is historian Prof KK Azizâs âThe Murder of History,â published by Vanguard Books Pvt Ltd. Social Studies for Students used in classes four through ten comes in seven versions. The subject is compulsory study for students in all state-sponsored schools and the textbook is the only book available to these schools. This later dovetails into Pakistan Studies, where even private schools are forced to teach a couple of texts that have been written at the behest of the state and project a certain idea of Pakistan, its supposed friends and adversaries. The books, which do not name the authors, are literary equivalent of hate speech.
Comes as a surprise, doesn't it? I know. It floored me, too...
These books would not be out of place in any madrassah preparing the young for an early grave. âHinduâ India and Britain are depicted as enemies while Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Ummah are extolled. The Pakistan Army and its âthree decisive victoriesâ over India are mentioned liberally and are an example of how institutional attempt has been made to rewrite history.
Since they were drubbed all three times...
Words like âdarkâ, âuglyâ and âshortâ are used to describe Hindus while Muslims are presented in glowing terms. Atrocities committed by Muslim invaders are glossed over while those by Hindu and Sikh invaders magnified. Invasions led by Muslims are justified as having been necessary for the expansion of Islam whereas Hindu-led invasions are depicted bleakly. Hindus are also reported as having colluded with the English to suppress the Muslims. âMuslims have always helped the Hindus who have only returned the favour by massacring innocent Muslims,â the textbook for Class IV makes plain on Page 85. âIndia is an enemy. Its designs are nefarious. We should receive military training so that we could fight our enemy,â it suggests on Page 112.
"Yes! We must plot, we must be devious, we must be ruthless to counter their nefarious plots!"
The propagation of the caste-system and of medieval practices such as satti (burning a widow on the husbandâs pyre) are used to illustrate the inferiority of Hindu culture. India is condemned for âsilentlyâ attacking Pakistan on September 6, 1965. There is no mention of Operation Gibraltar under which Pakistan Army personnel in plainclothes went into Kashmir to support âlocalsâ against India. Accounts of all Indo-Pakistan wars are similarly skewed with the upshot always in Pakistanâs favour. Fifth grade students, for example, are taught that the 1971 war was a Hindu conspiracy. In September 1981, Pakistan offered India a no-war pact but India evaded the issue and started raising unnecessary objections over Pakistanâs foreign policy, the books say. âIndo-Pak relations improved in 1990,â near the time of a near nuclear standoff incidentally, âbut suspicions remained as India was not sincere in fairly settling the Kashmir issue.â
That means they didn't cave, of course...
Muslim countries are thanked for their support to Pakistan over Kashmir and General Pervez Musharraf is lionised for broaching the subject at the Agra Summit last year. âPresident of Pakistan presented the Kashmir case courageously and splendidly which was appreciated by the entire world but the summit failed.â One remarkable thing about these textbooks is the addition every ruler does to them. Sometimes, previous rulers are either criticised or just ignored. For instance, during General Zia-ul Haqâs period, all references to prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto were removed. Citing the signing of the 1973 constitution, for instance, the textbook dealt with the issue in one small paragraph without a single reference to Bhutto.
EXCERPTS FROM CURRICULUM DOCUMENT FOR CLASSES K-V National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks Federal Ministry of Education, 1995 Government of Pakistan.
At the completion of Class-V, the child should be able to:
· "Acknowledge and identify forces that may be working against Pakistan."
· "Demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah."
· "Make speeches on Jehad and Shahadat"
· "Understand Hindu-Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan."
· "Indiaâs evil designs against Pakistan."
· "Be safe from rumour mongers who spread false news"
· "Visit police stations"
· "Collect pictures of policemen, soldiers, and National Guards"
· "Demonstrate respect for the leaders of Pakistan"
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/25/2003 7:54:40 AM ||
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#3
You can teach a person to believe absolutely anything - even things which his senses and intellect can detect or reason not to be true. Just start early enough, repeat often enough, and reinforce with approval & acceptance.
Anyone taking bets regards the funding source for undermining the text contents via bribes or "donations" or "other support"? This bears the clear MO of the Saudi Wahabbists. Want to stop the insanity? Stop indoctrination. How? Turn Saudi Arabia into a sheet of glass, for starters. BTW, we can drill through glass.
Better yet, bring back the neutron weapons that Geo41 had dismantled. Stupid decision that was a kowtow to the multilateralist / liberal outcry that a nuke weapon that kills, but doesn't destroy structures or facilities or leave the kill zone radioactive for N millenia was "bad" and "insane" - when logic tells you it's just the opposite. Amazing.
#4
The real shame is that there are equally as biased textbooks being used in the United States. Most are not favorable to the US Constitution, our government, or any military operation. Rewriting history is just a small part - they are also rewriting the use of English language, corrupting social virtues, and really, really messing with kids' heads.
When a high school biology book spends more time talking about environmental destruction than about the differences between mammals and amphibians, we need to start worrying. Math suddenly "has no right or wrong answers". And people wonder why they can't get kids with enough knowledge to work in fast foods.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 11:48 Comments ||
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#5
OP - You're right. So, where would you like to begin in the ConUS? We can make it a game. You get 5 dirty nukes and 15 neutron nukes. You'll prolly need lots more, but we can negotiate the rearming based on your point total after the initial strike wave. BTW, DC is off-limits. ;->
#6
I think the best way to solve the problem is to require all tenured teachers to go through Marine basic training and spend 10 years in the reserves afterwards. That includes anything from Kindergarten through tenured Senior Professors on our college campuses.
I would also outlaw the NEA. Anyone joining after the law is signed into effect would automatically qualify for 30 years' hard labor in a UN NGO, preferably in Africa.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 13:56 Comments ||
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#7
I saw some article that a college in San Fransisco now offers a BA and MA in Social Activism. I would think that such a degree would make your resume look as enticing to employers as an anthrax sandwhich on Monster.com. Kind of limits your employment options the way tattooing a swaztika on your forehead would.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 15:25 Comments ||
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#8
This isn't any different than the B-S which the american public schools are doing now with their Politically Correct agenda. I dont think they even teach history anymore. (after all mention of slavery might offend someone and mention of the American Indians (pardon... Native Americans) might offend someone else.).
My son will be born pretty soon and I am determined not to have him go to a public school where he will have this Politically Correct bullshait is forced fed to him.
I just have to find a well balanced school which will give him a well rounded education.
At least two powerful explosions have struck the Indian city of Bombay, also known as Mumbai, police say. At least 10 people have been killed and dozens injured. Other reports put the death toll higher — the Reuters news agency quoted a police official as saying 25 people had been killed. One of the blasts occurred in a car park near the historic Gateway of India monument in the south of the city, according to police. At least one other took place near the Mumba Devi temple in central Bombay. Rajendra Darda, home minister of Maharashtra state, told AFP: "Both the blasts occurred in the back seats of parked taxis." Star Television reported that another bomb had exploded in the upmarket Marine Lines district. Other reports claim a fourth explosion at the Mumba Devi site.
A number of vehicles parked around the Gateway of India were destroyed by the impact there. The force of the blast threw a number of people into the sea, said the BBCâs Sanjeev Srivastava at the scene. He said police had told him at least 40 people were injured by this blast. "The building we were in shook and we heard a loud noise," Ingrid Alva, a public relations consultant, told AP. "I rushed out and saw the crowds at the Gateway of India... We saw some body parts lying around, before we were told to move away by police." Police official PC Satam told Reuters news agency that the cause of the explosions was unclear at this stage. The city has been prey to a string of deadly bomb attacks since December last year, with the most recent, on a bus, killing three in July. Police blamed that attack on Pakistanâs Lashkar-e-Taiba Islamic militant group. Lashkar-e-Taiba is one of the two Pakistani rebel groups that Delhi blames for the December 2001 militant attack on its parliament which left 15 people dead, including five attackers. The latest attacks also coincided with the release of a report on the controversial religious site at Ayodhya. The dispute has been blamed for previous explosions in Bombay.
Posted by: Bulldog ||
08/25/2003 6:15:45 AM ||
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#1
Latest At least 42 people have been feared killed and over 150 injured in two blasts in south Mumbai -- one near the Gateway and the other near Zaveri Bazaar in busy Kalbadevi area -- Minister of State for Home Rajendra Darda said.
Police blamed that attack on Pakistan's Lashkar-e-Toiba Islamic militant group.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/25/2003 6:54 Comments ||
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#2
It's time US foriegn policy recognizes that India is an ally in the war on terror; Pakistan is the enemy.
#3
Good. Let a hundred bombs bloom, not only in India but in all the countries of the West too. Let Al Quaida crash their hijacked planes into British monuments.
Not that I want innocent people to die, G-d forbid. But it lookes like the West and the world has not sufficiently woken up yet, sad to say.
Until there is a confrontation between ALL the non-muslim countries and about 90% of the Muslim ones, there will never be any peace. Until all Muslims are rounded up and expelled from the West and other non-muslim countries, there will never be any peace. 'Terrorism' is not the problem, Islam is; their entire societies and their attitudes and their education systems are the problem, and no terrorist body count will ever be high enough to satiate the thirst that these jihadi fever swamp societies represent.
Will this problem be solved without a worldwide cataclysm befalling us all? I hope not, but I am becoming more pessimistic every week.
#4
We recognize it, but the problem is that logistics is an issue. Without Gwadar and Karachi, we can't conduct resupply. Ultimately, we can't even go against bin Laden because of the fecklessness of Rawalpindi and Islamabad.
Posted by: Brian ||
08/25/2003 12:50 Comments ||
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#5
It would be best for all if the Muslim world comes to appreciate that their radicals are ultimately endangering and impoverishing them all (physically and spiritually) -- and rein them in. Another 9-11 may be the Pearl Harbor that ultimately ends with a couple of mushroom clouds. I don't think the West has infinite patience for this crap, even if Israel does.
Posted by: Tom ||
08/25/2003 13:06 Comments ||
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#6
The road to victory in this war goes through Saudi Arabia. There is no government there, it's a kingdom with many little fiefdoms of power. Attack those people, kill them and take the oil fields. That would be like capturing your opponents Queen and forking the Rook and King. All that is left is rabble. Do it and we win this war, screw around and it's like the west bank. Those two things, taking the oil fields and killing those who have funded this shithead mentality would do more to free mankind then taking down Iraq, Iran and NK. Yes they are a big problem, yes they need to be addressed. But damn, I want to win this war NOW, not when hundreds of more bombs go off, and I get your point Brian, But the snake sits, coiled, right before our eyes.
#7
Another 9-11 may be the Pearl Harbor that ultimately ends with a couple of mushroom clouds.
We only need to threaten four places: Mecca, Medina, Damascus, and Aswan. There won't be enough left of "Arab Civilization" (an oxymoron) to ride a two-man bicycle.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 13:59 Comments ||
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#8
Lucky's post promted the thought on Ye Olde Follow the Money Principleâ¢. Pakistan gets its money from the US and Saudi, otherwise it's a basket case. I do not know how many strings we can put on the purse here, but we are fighting the WOT in Pakistan against people who are receiving some of our money. This is a very difficult problem, and there are no simple answers. We had to make a deal with the devil, so to speak in order to get to Afghanistan.
The Saudis are the next major providers of funds to the fundos and nutjobs in Pakland and to the Paleos. That source needs to be dried up.
The third major player is Iran, who needs to have its tubes tied.
Syria and the Norks are clients that produce goods and services to Iran, Pakistan, and indirectly Saudi. They can be squeezed and blockaded, so to speak.
So it seems to me that the long range solution is to dry up Iranian and Saudi money to terrorist ends by any way possible.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 15:59 Comments ||
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From a DoD dispatch
After 30 years of broken promises, two Baghdad communities have been reunited thanks to the joint efforts of the Coalition and local residents. Today, the Coalition Provisional Authority is pleased to announce the opening of a new bridge joining Gazeliyah and Al-Shula. Twenty five years ago, the Iraqi government built a canal separating the neighboring Sunni and Shia communities. For decades residents petitioned the government to build a bridge traversing the canal, but to no avail. In June, the Neighborhood Advisory Councils from Gazeliyah and Al-Shula asked the City and the Coalition for assistance in completing the long overdue project. Neighborhood Advisory Councils have been established in each of Baghdadâs 88 communities since the fall of the former regime to assist the municipal government in identifying issues of importance to local residents. This bridge is just a small example of the community coming together, said Lieutenant Colonel Eric W. Nantz, Battalion Commander of the 1-325 Airborne Infantry Regiment. In the past this type of cooperation would never happen. Iraqis are now making decisions to ensure a better life for themselves and their children, The 1-325 Airborne helped coordinate the procurement of materials and acquire funding.
The project was headed by Basil Tawfik, a local Iraqi engineer who employed 40 people to construct the bridge with the US Army 1 AD 3rd Brigadeâs discretionary funds. With Iraqi and Coalition engineers working side by side, construction took only a month. The total cost for the bridge was just under $21,000 and was funded by the 1 AD. The new bridge can accommodate two lanes of traffic and two pedestrian walkways. When the Coalition first got here we talked to them about importance of this bridge to both communities, said Mr. Tawfik. We are grateful for all the help weâve received to make us one community again.
Note: Members of the Press wishing to visit the site should contact the CPA Strategic Communications Office Note on the source; the story doesnât appear posted on the DoD website yet. This copy was recieved via mailing list.
#1
The project was headed by Basil Tawfik, a local Iraqi engineer who employed 40 people to construct the bridge with the US Army 1 AD 3rd Brigadeâs discretionary funds.
Anyone want to lay odds on Henry Waxman calling for a Congressional inquiry?
#2
The bridge will not be allowed to stand for a week.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 18:12 Comments ||
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#3
There has to of been an oil well drilled in the bridge foundations so the 1 AD can rape and pillage the poor people of Iraq. Just how far would the whole nation of Iraq be closer to normalization of it's society if more of the young in Iraq had jobs reconstructing the country? Instead of sitting on their asses pissing and moaning about the "American Oppressers"
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire ||
08/25/2003 18:59 Comments ||
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#4
I love to watch the US military, especially the Army (parochial, I know, but what can you do?) taking care of business.
But, damn, if the sillyvilian side of the government can't make a reasonable showing, with all their highly-educated professional types, we'll soon have a movement to put the DOD in charge of everything just so things work right.
And that would be dangerous.
For the sake of the nation, the sillivilians are going to have to show something.
Practically anything will do, short of bumping their pensions.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey ||
08/25/2003 21:17 Comments ||
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EFL
American forces captured seven men â two of them Saddam Hussein loyalists and five believed responsible for attacks on U.S. troops â during raids in the deposed leaderâs hometown, the military reported Monday. Tikrit is the "nest" take a big stick and poke it a couple times
American troops operating near Hamurrabi, 60 miles south of Baghdad, also reported finding a huge arms cache that included 400 cases of anti-aircraft shells and 200 rocket-propelled grenade rounds, the U.S. military reported. 200 RPGâs is a good find
No U.S. troops were hurt in the raids that resulted in the capture of seven men in Tikrit, 120 miles north of Baghdad, according to the 4th Infantry Division 1st Battalion 22nd Regiment, which conducted the searches. The military said the captured men and some still being sought were suspected of organizing regional cells of the Fedayeen Saddam, the militia loyal to Saddam and believed spearheading the guerrilla war against U.S. occupation forces. The military gave no identities. They still have the gags in and bags on their pointy heads... weâll identify them later
Early Monday, two Iraqis were wounded when their vehicle attempted to avoid a U.S. checkpoint near Kirkuk, Aberle said. The soldiers manning the checkpoint opened fire and disabled the vehicle, she said. The Iraqis were being treated and were detained. Their wounds were not serious, she said. their detention could be
An American soldier told an AP reporter Monday that the Republican Bridge over the Tigris River in central Baghdad had been closed for an hour Sunday night after U.S. forces discovered a bomb. He refused to give any other details. "I can say no more"
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 2:51:03 PM ||
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The U.S. Defense Department sent a telegram to the Israeli Foreign Ministry last week on the possibility of pumping oil from U.S.-occupied Iraq to Israel, reported a leading Israeli newspaper Monday, August 25. A "senior Pentagon official" has sent a telegram to a "top Foreign Ministry official" on the cost estimate for repairing the Mosul-Haifa pipeline that was in use prior to 1948, reported Haaretz. It quoted sources as confirming that "the Americans are looking into the possibility of laying a new pipeline via Jordan and Israel." The new pipeline would take oil from the oil-rich Iraqi northern area of Kirkuk, where some 40 percent of Iraqi oil is produced, transport it via Mosul to Jordan and then to Israel, said the daily. Thus enriching our Zionist masters in their bid to dominate to world, blah, blah, blah.
After the end of the British mandate, the 1948 war and the creation of Israel, Iraq stopped the flow of oil to Haifa and the pipeline, only 8 inches in diameter, fell into disrepair since then. A recent research by the Israeli National Infrastructure Ministry put the construction of a 42-inch diameter pipeline between Kirkuk and Haifa at some 400,000 dollars per kilometer. Be a bitch to defend, but worth it.
On Sunday, August 24, Israeli National Infrastructure Minister Yosef Paritzky vowed to discuss the issue with the U.S. secretary of energy during his envisaged visit to Washington next month. He asserted that the whole project depends on Jordanâs consent, adding that the kingdom would receive a transit fee for allowing the oil to flow through its territory. Thanks for your help.
Paritzky believes restarting the pipeline could reduce Israelâs fuel costs by 25 percent and turn Haifa into "the Rotterdam of the Middle East." Israeli Premier Ariel Sharonâs government "views the pipeline to Haifa as a âbonusâ the U.S. could give to Israel in return for its unequivocal support for the American-led campaign in Iraq," according to Haaretz. Works for me, thereâs also a bonus. Keep reading, Murat.
At present, Iraqi oil is being shipped via Turkey to a small Mediterranean port near the Syrian border. Ankara, which considers the transit fee it collects an important source of revenue, has warned Israel it would regard the talked-about Kirkuk-Mosul-Haifa pipeline as "a serious blow to Turkish-Israeli relations." Haaretz quoted sources as saying reports about the alternative pipeline are part of an American "attempt to apply pressure on Turkey" which had opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and is still reluctant to commit troops to the neighboring country to ease the burden on American forces. Paybackâs a bitch, ainât it?
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 12:16:14 PM ||
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#1
Well it certainly fits in the not for oil blah blah, just for the sake of the Iraqi people hypocrisy, nothing unexpected here
Posted by: Murat ||
08/25/2003 12:48 Comments ||
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#2
heh heh - it'd be worth it to screw the Turks over for their fine work in the war. Jordan gets some stabilization $, our Israeli friends make $ and the Iraqis get their export $. Plus, it would pinch the Princeling's panties in Soddy. I like it. BTW - when does the downgrading at Incirlik start? We need to relocate - I'm thinking Cyprus?
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 12:56 Comments ||
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#3
Okay, Murat, I see you're still trolling. Now, go back a few rants and apologize to Zhang Fei like a gentleman should -- if you can.
Posted by: Tom ||
08/25/2003 13:13 Comments ||
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#4
Frank G - Re: Incirlik... After we completely dismantle it, blow up and haul away the concrete and asphalt, are we going to plow the whole thing and sow salt? I certainly hope so.
#5
this rumour seems to pop up mainly at islamic sites - or at israeli ones like Debka. I doubt its for real, probably just some pressure on the Turks. But why shouldnt the Iraqis be able to ship their oil out any way they want? And if Jordan, Turkey and Egypt can deal with Israel, why not Iraq?
#6
Incirlik is a Turkish AB, we just used most of it the same way we do at most of our overseas air bases, it's not ours to dismantle. The downgrade started back in the spring, Northern Watch shut down and all the planes and personnel with that left. It has recently been downgraded from Wing to Group status, that's a big drop. Mostly just used to support transient aircraft, a few planes there TDY for a while, then they are gone. I've heard that the big shopping area in the village outside the base is now a ghost town.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 13:58 Comments ||
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#7
Steve says:
I've heard that the big shopping area in the village outside the base is now a ghost town.
Awww, ain't that just too bad! Guess the Turks are learning the meaning of "be careful what you wish for" etc.
Shame the Turkish leaders who caused this don't have to take the economic losses personally instead of the people around the airbase.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
08/25/2003 14:17 Comments ||
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#9
Now we see why Turkey REALLY didn't want a second front, hoping that a denial would put the kibosh on the liberation of Iraq. All about oil? You can't eat oil. You sell it to get MONEY. Money, plain and simple.
#10
Thought we'd ruled that line out, must be some re-thinking (and money, perhaps even from Jordan which would profit) going on.
And adding a pipe does not mean closing down a pipe: once there is enough of an Iraqi military and police to defend against the nutjobs and thieves (or earlier, if enough other countries send troops and cops), I would expect both lines to be in constant use. Our recent French-inspired ("Do this or we won't let you into th EU!" Followed, of course, with "Glad to se you are cooperating, but we still don't want you - and by the way, we don't think you have any need for defence") troubles with Turkey are actually relatively minor, as long as they don't start shooting up Iraq.
Posted by: John Anderson ||
08/25/2003 15:15 Comments ||
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#11
Murat thinks we should just pump all the oil back into the ground.
Posted by: Pete Stanley ||
08/25/2003 16:17 Comments ||
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#12
I don't remember Murat being *this* nasty in the past?
Posted by: Tony ||
08/25/2003 16:52 Comments ||
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#13
I don't remember Murat being *this* nasty in the past?
Posted by: Tony 2003-8-25 4:52:37 PM
Yeah, but what can you expect--he is afterall Turkish and a Muslim. Did you really think he was sincere about rational discourse?
#15
I don't remember Murat being *this* nasty in the past?
Posted by: Tony 2003-8-25 4:52:37 PM
Tony,
You're right. I don't either. I've been away from this forum for awhile but before Murat quit in a huff some time back, he seemed like an earnest interlocuter looking for debate and answers. More jaundiced Eurocynic than raving Islamoparanoid.
Also, and I'm serious, wasn't his English better then, too?
The "new" Murat seems less friendly and less fluent. Maybe he's like the Dick York/Dick Sergeant switcheroo on "Bewitched" and we're supposed to act like he's the same Darren?
#17
FYI, the latest economic news from Turkey: - Growth rate of GDP has increased to 8.1% - Industrial production up by 11.7% - Exports up by 35.4% - Stock markets up by 22% Yeah. They are in trouble big time...
I think I've just discovered why Turks are continually migrating to Western Europe and the US. The Czech Republic is an ex-Soviet satellite state. Its GDP per capita is $7,000. Turkey's GDP per capita is just shy of $3,000, despite never had the benefit of Communist rule. It's appears that the successors to the Ottomans have not entirely cast off its reputation as the sick man of Europe.
An angry crowd gathered in the streets of the holy city of Najaf as funerals were held for three bodyguards killed in a bomb attack outside the home of one of Iraqâs top clerics. At least 2,000 Shiite Muslims followed behind the wooden coffins, with many of them carrying posters of Ayatollah Mohammed Saeed al-Hakim who was slightly wounded in the neck in Sundayâs bombing. Some blamed supporters of rival Shiite leader Moqtada al Sadr for the attack at a Shiite spiritual center about 100 miles south of Baghdad. Sadr has criticized the U.S. occupation of Iraq and refused to join the coalition-backed Governing Council. "This was Moqtada al Sadr. His people did it,ââ 60-year-old Muslim Radii, told Reuters. "Now there will be revenge. The only way to stop this is for the people of Najaf to stop it. We will have to form our own militia.ââ Well, thatâs one way to get rid of Sadr.
Sadrâs group has denied responsibility for the bombing. "Wasnât us." Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), one of the countryâs main Shiite groups, said it was the target of the attack, Reuters reported. Hakim is the uncle of SCIRI leader Ayatollah Mohammed Baqer al-Hakim. Hakim, who has had contact with U.S. officials since before the U.S.-led war in Iraq, was walking through a hallway when the blast went off and received minor injuries from glass shards. The spokesman said an explosive device had detonated inside a gas canister that had been left outside an office where the ayatollahâs son was working. The home is about half a mile south of the Imam Ali Mosque, a site sacred to Shiites around the world. Ali was the son-in-law of the prophet Muhammad and the first leader of the Shiite community. The spokesman also said that the ayatollah and his followers hold the U.S. military responsible for maintaining security in Najaf and therefore hold the Americans indirectly responsible for the attack. Uh, you told us to get out of Najaf and not to come back.
Iraqi police said Hakim apparently received a death threat last week, but did not report it to police. The spokesman confirmed the death threat, and said the ayatollah and other leading Iraqi religious figures in Najaf had received threats telling them that they must leave Najaf or be killed. "We get them all the time, it comes with the turban."
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 10:06:47 AM ||
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Funny, Najaf has been a hot spot for sniper attacks, RPG attacks, etc., on US forces. Now, the local hate monger gets roughed up by the deadenders and they are screaming for us to do something......or that we didn't do enough.
#2
I do not recall that Najaf was a hot spot for attacks on US troops. There are a lot of demonstrations, etc., but it seems to have been otherwise mainly peaceful.
#3
As far as I can tell, Najaf is more violent than its sister-city, Karbala, but it still isn't really comparable to Fallujah or Ramadi. The violence in Najaf tends to be incestuous tussling among various Shi'ite microfactions. This probably explains why you see references to routine Iranian pilgrimages to Karbala, but not Najaf. The wingnuts aren't rioting in the streets in Karbala - much more tourist-friendly.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
08/25/2003 16:22 Comments ||
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EFL. Try not to step in the BBC spin.
The International Committee of the Red Cross is cutting back its operations in Iraq after warnings that it could be targeted for attack. The number of foreign staff in Baghdad is being reduced to about 50 as the level of violence throughout the country has failed to abate and the organisation fears that US-led forces cannot ensure security.
The Red Cross has suffered its own losses with the death of two workers. The organisation said it would be forced to cut services further if the threat to its staff remained. "Itâs a very difficult decision. Itâs a heartbreaking decision for us to reduce our staff," Nada Doumani of the ICRC told the BBC. "We believe these warnings are to be taken seriously... Itâs very depressing for the Iraqis to realise that after four months... they donât feel safe in their own country."
The Red Cross tends to stay put when everyone else goes, so its decision to reduce staff is likely to be followed by other agencies, the BBCâs Susannah Price in Baghdad says. Different organisations are reviewing their operations, following Tuesdayâs bombing of the United Nations compound in Baghdad, in which more than 20 people died. [...M]edical personnel working for Spainâs Movement for Peace, Disarmament and Liberty returned from Iraq. "Baghdad is a lawless city," said Doctor Gabriel Espana on arrival in Madrid.
Posted by: Bulldog ||
08/25/2003 6:10:03 AM ||
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Posted by: Smash Fan ||
08/25/2003 1:21:06 AM ||
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Allright! I hope he and Mrs. Smash have a joyful reunion. I've enjoyed reading his blog; he sounds like a superb officer, just the kind of guy we need in the reserves.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/25/2003 2:05 Comments ||
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The authorities have deported an alleged Islamic militant to Indonesia after releasing him from prison, Malaysian Deputy Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said. Mohd Iqbal Abdul Rahman, an Indonesian with permanent residency in Malaysia, was released on Friday after his two-year detention order under the Internal Security Act (ISA) expired. Story doesnât say if Indonesia has any pending charges against him, or if heâs now free to resume his "career".
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 11:36:36 AM ||
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There seems to be a bit of confusion: Suspected terrorist Mohd Iqbal Abdul Rahman was still being held at the Kuala Lumpur Immigration Department headquarters in Damansara, said an official today. However, this contradicted Deputy Prime Minister and Home Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawiâs statement earlier that the 46-year-old religious preacher has already been deported. At press time, Kuala Lumpur Immigration Department public relations officer Ahmad Shukri told malaysiakini that Mohd Iqbal was still in custody here and awaiting deportation. "He is still here (in Damansara depot) until the process to deport him is finalised," he said but could not confirm when the deportation will be carried out.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 11:39 Comments ||
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More details: Southeast Asian security officials accuse Iqbal, 46, of leading a Malaysian cell of Jemaah Islamiyah, the al-Qaida-linked regional extremist network blamed for bombings and plots, including last year's Bali nightclub blasts and the Aug. 5 Marriott blast. Officials say alleged terrorist mastermind Hambali, also an Indonesian, replaced Iqbal as the cell's leader after Iqbal's arrest. Malaysian officials gave no reason for Iqbal's release, and it was not immediately clear if he was wanted by Indonesian authorities.
Malaysia's Deputy Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, who is also responsible for domestic security matters, said Iqbal had been deported. But Indonesian police spokesman Col. Zainury Lubis said he had no information regarding Iqbal's deportation. Lubis said that as long as Iqbal was not implicated in any terrorist attacks or bombings in Indonesia, ''then there is no reason to arrest him.''
At least pick him up for "questioning".
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 12:26 Comments ||
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#3
I like Iran's policy better. Especially when they release their detainees onto planes headed to Turkey.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 12:59 Comments ||
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Reason #789,463 why you should run, not walk, away from your nearest Anglican or Episcopal church. Writing to Kofi Annan following the recent bombing of the UN headquarters in Baghday, Archdeacon Taimalelagi Fagamalama Tuatagaloa-Matalavea, the head of the Anglican Communionâs UN office(bet you didnât know they had one, didja?), Rev. Tuatagaloa-Matalavea actually wrote this:
We are deeply saddened and concerned that terrorists do not appreciate the sincere objectives of the United Nations to bring about peace and security to the world and especially in Iraq and the Middle East.
So many jokes...Coming too fast...canât concentrate...
Posted by: Christopher Johnson ||
08/25/2003 8:12:18 PM ||
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Fred,
The second mention of that lady's name shouldn't be there. Sorry.
Posted by: Christopher Johnson ||
08/25/2003 20:23 Comments ||
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We are also deeply saddened and concerned for the victims of terrorism. The UN does not have a clue about what they're dealing with when it comes to vicious psychpaths. The UN's head-up-their-ass attitudes set the stage for creating alot of widows and orphans.
Archdeacon Taimalelagi Fagamalama Tuatagaloa-Matalavea: these boomers are cold blooded killers and not poor misguided oppressed folks. Get a grip on reality. It's pretty ugly.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 20:36 Comments ||
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#3
Read somewhere that the bomb was to halt the investigation into the oil-for-palaces program. Too conspiratorial for me, but would still like to know what the investigation turns up.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 22:07 Comments ||
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The film director Oliver Stone has warned that the independence of British news media would be destroyed if US conglomerates were allowed to buy into them. The maker of such films as Platoon and JFK, whose puff piece documentary on Fidel Castro, Commandante, was pulled "indefinitely" from the cable station HBOâs schedules as America went to war with Iraq, said British politicians were naively courting disaster.
I always say, if you're going to court disaster, don't do it naively...
The communications bill enables foreign companies to buy terrestrial channels such as ITV and Channel Five for the first time. Stone, who screened Commandante at the Edinburgh Film Festival, said he feared the change would undermine standards.
Ain't no standard like BBC standards...
"I was shocked at how superficial and sentimental the American coverage of the Iraq war was — all Private Jessica Ryan, and no coverage of civilian casualties.
I didn't think we had many civilian casualties...
In Britain, you have a wider view, and people are more independent.
"You Europeans are so-o-o-o sophisticated! Can I touch your Players?"
"Goebbels said the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it, and I am afraid that is the American case. In America the media is amazingly conformist. We are living in an age of spin. Now there is a law before parliament which would allow the US media to buy into your media. Thatâll be the end of the independent British media." Stone was scathing at the withdrawal of his documentary, after the Cuban leader executed three men who tried to escape hijack a plane and imprisoned 75 dissidents in the spring, saying it had become a football in George Bushâs re-election campaign. Mr Bush, he alleged, was reliant on the Cuban American lobby in Florida who had helped engineer the stateâs much-disputed vote that took him to the White House.
Nothing has anything to do with revulsion at actual conditions in Cuba, of course, nor with any sympathy with actual Cubans...
"I just pray that the American people have a chance to see Fidel Castro through a gunsight his own words, because it need not be filtered by anybody, particularly the Cuban American lobby. The American people are sufficiently mature to see it without being guided or having cards put up saying this is propaganda." Stone returned to Havana to kiss ass grill Mr Castro on the executions and his treatment of internal protest in Cuba. He hopes that HBO will eventually show the resulting film, Looking for Fidel, together with Commandante. Having been given unfettered access to the Cuban leader for more than 60 hours of interviews, Stone claimed he was much more of a "human being" than Mr Bush.
"G.W. has cloven hooves, y'know. That's why you never see his feet on the teevee. I know these things, 'cuz I'm a famous director..."
"I see George Bush as a synthetic person. Heâs a C student at Yale, an ex-alcoholic who believes in Jesus — what could be more dangerous?" Paranoid left-wing directors?
"Castro believes there is a new Bush policy against Cuba, fomenting hijackings and supporting dissidents with money," Stone alleged. "I believe the Republicans are very concerned about the 2004 election, which plays into the Castro situation very deeply." Heâs seen thru our deception program and has grasped the truth, George Bush plans to overthrow Fidel and expand the Gitmo Death Camp(tm) to cover the whole island of Cuba.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 4:24:50 PM ||
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Any chance of Michael Moore and Oliver Stone flying on the same doomed plane? The inflight movie could be the Parallax View
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 16:48 Comments ||
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"I was shocked at how ... sentimental the American coverage of the Iraq war was..."
Well, Ollie, just speaking for myself I confess I do get seriously sentimental about other Americans (and Brits and Ozzies and Poles) putting their lives on the line for my benefit and that of my family.
Posted by: Matt ||
08/25/2003 17:14 Comments ||
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I was beginning to think that Castro had become comic relief the way Qadafi has. He seems to be causing considerable problems in Venusuala, Brazil and is even projecting into Columbia. The American focus may be too far abroad in that respect.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 18:10 Comments ||
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I some times daydream that a charted 747 full of Oliver Stone and the rest of the Hollywood Halfwits is enroute to the Cannes Film Festival when it is Hijacked by terrorists to some Godforsaken third world hellhole and when the ransom demand comes in the government replies WHO? Never heard of 'em
Posted by: Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire ||
08/25/2003 18:54 Comments ||
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#5
Someone, great image. How much would we be willing to pay the terrorists to keep them?
Posted by: Matt ||
08/25/2003 19:24 Comments ||
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#6
"The Ransom of Red Punks"
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/25/2003 19:33 Comments ||
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#7
In America the media is amazingly conformist.
Stone has a point here. I find the American "mainstream" media amazingly conformist: socialist, anti-American, PC, pro-choice, anti-Christian, pro-bigger government, anti-normal, anti-second amendment. How's Matt Lauer differenct from Dan Rather, Peter Jennings or any of the rest of that crowd?
#8
Thank GOD for alternatives! Rush Limbaugh/talk radio, Fox News, Rantburg, Little Green Footballs, Sgt Stryker, Townhall, WND, and all the other options the Looney Left haven't a clue about.
I spent 26 years in the Air Force, working in imagery intelligence. We used to get a daily briefing - exerpts of classified information regarding just about every 'hot spot' and potential hot spot in the world. Then I'd go home and listen to the 6:00 news, and wonder if I was on the right planet.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 19:54 Comments ||
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OP, not to worry, you are definitely on planet earth. It's those folks from the erstwhile major networks that live on the dark side of the moon.
JPost - Reg Reqâd
Top leaders of Hamas were nowhere to be found Monday amid the Green Hamas flags and gunmen marching in black baklavas to commemorate the funeral of the groupâs military wing leader Ahmed Aishtawi. Pussies
Hamas leaders â including Abdel Aziz Rantissi, Mahmud Al Zahar, and Ismail Hania â were not however ducking the Palestinian Authorityâs much-anticipated crackdown on terrorist organizations, but the far more terrifying hellfire missiles of Israelâs Apache helicopters. An actual threat vs. an inconvenience before the revolving door releases them
The PA reported on Sunday that it was launching a series of crackdowns on militant activity in the Gaza Strip, that it intended to shutter several Hamas-linked institutions, prevent arms smuggling, and arrest a limited number of militants. But there was little evidence of such anti-terror activity on the ground Monday aside from Sundayâs photo-op in which PA police blocked three smugglers tunnels. Despite declarations to the contrary, PA security chiefs in Gaza on Monday said they had no orders to arrest, subdue or fight Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders who threaten the PAâs own authority. In an effort to deflect criticism that the PA is doing nothing to clamp down on groups like Hamas, one officer in the Preventive Security Apparatus recounted that his forces have worked lately to arrest "several drug dealers, who harm the Palestinian economy." the boomers are ok though - they bring in more EU, UN money to the coffers
The official, Yusef Aisa Abu Khaled, the Director of the Analysis Administration, effectively the head of doctrine and planning for Preventive security, added that the PA had intended to close Hamas charities, but following Israelâs assassination of popular Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab, public opinion on the streets had turned against the PA, rendering such an endeavor "impossible." even if they tried? oh, riiggghhtt, they didnât
Both Abu Khalid and Maj. Gen, Saeb Ajez, the Commander of the Northern Gaza Stripâs PA National Security Service, acknowledged that the PA understands that groups like Hamas present an existential threat to its government. "Palestinian security views Hamas and Israel in the same way," as a security threat, said Ajez. an existential threat? maybe the reality needs to be brought home to....ramallah?
An "existential threat"? Camus would no doubt understand, if he was still around. Perhaps he could write a sequel to The Myth of Sysiphus, describing in excruciating detail the never-ending struggle to handle the absurdity of politix in Paleoland...
Yet both officers noted that the PA is unwilling to move against Hamas because the it is neither physically ready nor willing to engage the terrorist organizations in an open battle, though PA National Security officers are "trying to stop mortar and Kassam fire into Israel." Instead, Ajez and Abu Khaled noted that the PA hopes to transform "militant organizations into political organizations," which they believe might willingly dismantle themselves. Israeli security sources have long condemned the plan, the only one the PA has proffered, arguing that the chances of Hamas dismantling itself are "zero".
Without booms and flying meat there is no Hamas...
The Gaza street is meanwhile being sucked further into a power vacuum; about the only mark of authority in the 340 sq. km. Strip is the thudding sound of IDF helicopter rotors, which sends militants roaches scurrying into alleyways. Less than a kilometer from Aisaâs office on Muhafaza Street sit the charred remains of Abu Shanab's station wagon â a monument to Israelâs promise to take out the terrorists if the PA does not. a new Gaza jungle gym huh?
According to Ajez, the PAâs critical problem arises from its chronic "lack of proper organization." Ajezâ National Security forces continues to be ruled by PA Chairman Yasser Arafat, while Muhammed Dahlan ostensibly holds the reigns over the PAâs Preventive Security service. There is little if any cooperation between the two and what little cooperation exists often founders over competition for funds and materiel, as well as ideology. Hamas pussies leaders, who, like Rantissi, are almost ubiquitous on Arabic Satellite channels, have fled into hiding â all save for the groupâs spiritual leader Shiekh Ahmed Yassin, an ailing paraplegic. With the knowledge that the IDF tracks them through their cellphone use, most have change their numbers. When asked at the rally by a Palestinian journalist for Ismail Haniaâs new phone number, the Hamas leaderâs son simply shrugged, replying, "even I donât know it."
"We're sorry. The number you have dialed is not a working number... Neither is that one... Nope, that that one, either..."
Looking haggard, Ajez worried that the PA was rapidly losing its youth to Hamas, and its grip on power. "Do you know," he said, "that there is not one public [swimming] pool in all of Gaza. There are no fields for our kids to play in." He added that many Gazans, a population of which almost 50% is under the age of 18, are turning to Hamas to "make their living." When asked why the PA has not built institutions to keep the youth busy, Ajez, unusually critical of his own government, stated that "the PA has always consumed and not produced. The PA provides security and law and it collects taxes," while Hamas provides destitute locals with badly needed social services. And a chance to become martyrs.
And the PA does a piss-poor job of all those things...
The PA dared not disrupt the funeral ceremony, attended partially by gunmen who totted mortar shells with their fins poking out the top of their backpacks. In the background the funeral chant leader boasted that revenge will come to Israel through the groupâs "improved efficiency in Kassam rockets and explosives." The masked gunmen carrying the mortars had only one sentence for the press: "Death and Allah are one, we will keep fighting Israel until martyrdom."
the Death cult chant, how druidic...let the IDF help you to make it happen... keep your heads up and smile
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 4:07:40 PM ||
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#1
Think how much fun the IDF could have with a couple of Predators...
#3
"the PA has always consumed and not produced. The PA provides security and law and it collects taxes," while Hamas provides destitute locals with badly needed social services. And a chance to become martyrs.
Yes Hamas has so much more to offer the Paleostinian job market.
Also, people marching around with mortar rounds and RPG's at the big dog's funeral are fair game for the IDF. Since the PA feel to impotent to confiscate ordnance, someone's gotta do it.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 17:22 Comments ||
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You know Paul I have oftened wondered why they/we don't launch a strike when they have one of these big pow wows? Seems to me that if you have a concentration of your enemy that would be a good time to strike? Probably too many Women/Children at them. But they seem to support the cause. Wonder how supportive they are after a few missiles are hurled at the crowd? Seems only fair since Hamas likes to target civs.
#5
Cyber Sarge---At least we should hit the coffin being carried by gunnies. They know that Israel has a conscience about deliberately hitting civvies. They consider it a weakness of their enemy (Israel). But the same gunnies have no compunction about blowing up kids on a bus. I hate to get down to their level, but we KNOW that the Hamas big dogs will be hiding around civvies after these last missile hits. A couple of more missles at the hiding leaders and the civvies will avoid the big dogs like the plague.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 18:58 Comments ||
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JPost - Reg Reqâd
Bulldozers cleared land east of Jerusalem Monday as Israel moved ahead with the construction of a new segment of its barrier through the West Bank, shrugging off criticism from both the Palestinians and the United States.
"What're y'gonna replace it with? A ceasefire?"
Israel began confiscating Palestinian lands for sections east of Jerusalem more than a week ago, and workers broke ground on the section east of Jerusalem on Friday. On Monday, with the golden dome of the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalemâs old city visible in the distance, a surveying team lined up the route in the neighborhood of Abu Dis. Israeli soldiers kept guard around the site as bulldozers moved earth next to an olive grove, but there were no reports of protests.
That's because even the Paleos can see they're not screwing around. No telling what the Rachel Corrie Pancake Brigades will do, of course...
The military has declined to reveal details of the route east of Jerusalem. A security source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said segments east of Jerusalem will stretch some 13.5 kilometers (8.4 miles). Israel built a concrete wall between Abu Dis and Jerusalem more than a year ago, already separating some residents from the eastern sector of the city, and greatly increasing travel times.
"Cheeze, it takes a long time to get to a target area nowadays!"
"Maybe you should take the bus."
"That's the target area."
The new barrier is to stretch north and south from the existing wall, and critics say it will force tens of thousands to use just one road — manned by Israeli soldiers — to get in and out of the area.
Golly. That's too bad. I wonder why those things don't seem to happen in places where people don't explode without warning?
Olive farmer Youssef Qombar, 62, said he found a confiscation order pinned to a tree and that the fence will cut through the middle of his property, located south of Abu Dis in Al-Sawahreh Al-Sharkia. The israelis should compensate guys like this, but keep building the wall
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 3:37:12 PM ||
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With the "baby bomb" deed done by the disguised-as-an-orthodox Jew splodeydope, you can bet your sweet a$$ they are gonna finish that wall...hopefully it will be electrified, too.
#2
Compensation with cash or being on the Israeli side of the wall if the guy is checked out clean by Mossad. Let the farmer choose.
I know there were a lot of Arabs upset when they ended up on the wrong side of Jerusalem in the past. They won't speak up for fear of punishment so ask them quietly.
#3
"Do you know," he said, "that there is not one public [swimming] pool in all of Gaza."
How far is it from the eastern edge of the Gaza Strip to the Med?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
08/25/2003 16:24 Comments ||
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"Do you know," he said, "that there is not one public [swimming] pool in all of Gaza." How far is it from the eastern edge of the Gaza Strip to the Med?
Robert Crawford----literally a stone's throw, heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 16:44 Comments ||
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#5
And how many $ have been diverted from swimming pools, etc. to Qassam Rockets, the Karin A arms, on and on? Quitcher bitching and DO something about it asshat! My guess is Hamas and IJ wouldn't like a pool or anything else that occupies a childs mind/attention span and deprograms the little stone-throwing killers
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 16:59 Comments ||
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#6
C'mon Frank, you are just recalling your college idealism....just kidding.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/25/2003 17:38 Comments ||
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via Drudge
U.S. intelligence suspects Iraqâs weapons of mass destruction have finally been located. Unfortunately, getting to them will be nearly impossible for the United States and its allies, because the containers with the strategic materials are not in Iraq. Instead they are located in Lebanonâs heavily-fortified Bekaa Valley, swarming with Iranian and Syrian forces, and Hezbollah and ex-Iraqi agents, Geostrategy-Direct.com will report in tomorrowâs new weekly edition. U.S. intelligence first identified a stream of tractor-trailer trucks moving from Iraq to Syria to Lebaon in January 2003. The significance of this sighting did not register on the CIA at the time.
I have a hard time believing that...
U.S. intelligence sources believe the area contains extended-range Scud-based missiles and parts for chemical and biological warheads. Mutually-lucrative Iraqi-Syrian arms transactions are nothing new. Firas Tlas, son of Syrian Defense Minister Mustafa Tlas, has been the key to Syriaâs rogue alliance with Iraq. He and Assad made hundreds of millions of dollars selling weapons, oil and drugs to and from Iraq, according to the May 13, 2003 edition of Geostrategy-Direct.com. The CIA now believes a multi-million dollar deal between Iraq and Syria provided for the hiding and safekeeping of Saddamâs strategic weapons. Not surprisingly, U.S. inquiries in Beirut and Syria are being met with little substantive response, U.S. officials said. How about we drive on over from Iraq and check it out?
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 3:12:27 PM ||
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How about we get the Israeli's to jump across the border, smash Hezzbullah and capture the WMD. Perhaps with a few embedded reporters along for the ride.
#2
depending on the prevailing wind direction I think demolition in place would be my favorite option...heellllooooo Damascus!
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 15:21 Comments ||
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Leaving this stuff in place is not an option. It is time Assad & company discover that there is aprice to pay for this kind of crap. Plus remember is Hezbollah has access to these weapons, then Iran is privy to the treasure trove as well.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
08/25/2003 15:36 Comments ||
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#4
Debka broke this news before the war began. Although Debka's batting average is far from perfect, they seem to have nailed this one dead solid perfect.
#5
"The significance of this sighting did not register on the CIA at the time."?
Come on spooks... we're paying you to do a little bit of outside the box thinking.
This is almost a Homer Simpson "D'oh" moment.
Posted by: Jim K ||
08/25/2003 16:06 Comments ||
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MW's right - Debka nailed it in May
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 16:09 Comments ||
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Earlier, I think. I remember reading something about it when I was home for Christmas. I think they thought it was missiles -- and there was a big explosion in Hezbollah-controlled territory to which many ambulances were sent. Perhaps unloading.
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 17:53 Comments ||
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#9
If the weapons are used, I predict that Syria will censure the U.S. for forcing Sadaam's regime to move the weapons out of reliable hands.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 18:20 Comments ||
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#10
Whoa! Not the "heavily-fortified Bekaa Valley, swarming with Iranian and Syrian forces, and Hizbullah and ex-Iraqi agents"! That is indeed daunting.
We will die in a sea of fire with grilled stomachs and our families will lament the mountains of body bags in this Mother of All Battles as we are pushed back into the sea to die in the desert.
Then, after lunch, Damascus, anyone?
Posted by: Mark IV ||
08/25/2003 19:53 Comments ||
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#11
Sounds too good to be true, I hope it is true but I doubt it. If this really is the same location Debka reported about in May then we would have been all over it by now. Bush wouldn't sit around taking all this abuse about the lack of WMD if he could prove they existed. I hope I'm completely wrong.
Posted by: g wiz ||
08/25/2003 21:21 Comments ||
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#12
We carried it in December, based on a Haaretz report. The explosion in the Janta camp was reported December 30th, based on an al-Bawaba report, with followup from Debka.
It's damned hard to imagine CIA missing it. I'd guess somebody's been following it, and that there won't be any moves until it's thoroughly and tightly nailed down -- if it's valid data.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/25/2003 22:14 Comments ||
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#13
In an interview with Newsweek in January, Ariel Sharon, said that he had information that Iraq's WMD's were moved into Syria, but they don't know where they went from there.
Posted by: set ||
08/25/2003 22:24 Comments ||
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Hat tip to LGF
Iran has extradited a number of Saudi members of Al Qaeda to Saudi Arabia, the official Iranian news agency Irna reported. Irna quoted Tehranâs ambassador to Riyadh as saying the Al Qaeda members had been arrested in Iran after the US-led war on Afghanistan, but did not name them, or say how many had been extradited or when they had been handed over to Saudi Arabia. convenient, that absence of info - allows Soddy and the Blackhats to get their stories straight
The envoy, speaking to Irna on the sidelines of a conference in Tehran, said Iran and Saudi Arabia, leading oil producers and both Muslim nations, had signed a security pact and "have shown a firm resolve to improve ties in all areas", the BBC said. another axis within an axis?
Last Sunday Irna quoted Hassan Rohani, secretary-general of the Supreme National Security Council, as saying that Iran had foiled a number of attacks Al Qaeda had been planning to carry out on its soil. "Their (Al Qaedaâs) plans for a wide range of terrorist acts inside Iran were neutralised by our intelligence organisations," Irna quoted Rohani as saying, though he gave no details.
"I can say no more!"
Although a staunch political enemy of Washington, Iran condemned the September 11 attacks on the US which were blamed on Al Qaeda and was fiercely opposed to the rule of Al Qaedaâs former sponsors, the Taliban, in neighbouring Afghanistan. Tehran has said previously that it has arrested a number of Al Qaeda members, including some senior figures in Osama bin Ladenâs organisation. But it has declined to name them and has refused to hand them over to US officials for questioning. The Islamic Republic has also acknowledged that its extensive eastern border with Afghanistan is hard to police and some fleeing Al Qaeda members may have been able to slip into the country undetected. Intelligence sources and media reports suggest Iran may be holding Saad bin Laden, a son of the Al Qaeda leader, Al Qaedaâs security chief Egyptian Saif Al Adel and its Kuwaiti-born spokesman Sulaiman Abu Ghaith, among others. wonder if they sent these asshats back or holding them as bargaining chips?
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 1:13:13 PM ||
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North Korean reporters traded punches with human rights activists Sunday as tension over the Northâs suspected nuclear development escalated into violence at the World University Games. Wrong! The violence had to do with N. Koreaâs human rights violations (and its âGreatâ Leader) and not its suspected Nuclear Development. This reporter should read his own story.
[snipped. Rerun from yesterday...]
#2
There is a video of this brawl (if that's what you wanna call it) at the Reuters website in their video section. If I remember correctly it was only one guy who threw a couple of haymakers, but he didn't manage to connect on either. He did look really mad though as his buddies dragged him off and up the escalator. But it was hardly a brawl.
Posted by: g wiz ||
08/25/2003 14:52 Comments ||
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Hamas threatened revenge today after Israel killed four of its members in a missile strike and declared anyone in the militant Palestinian resistance group a target for "liquidation." good - now follow through
With Palestinian leaders locked in a power struggle over control of security forces, Palestinian officials warned that Sunday nightâs air strike would undermine efforts to rein in militants, a key requirement in the fading U.S.-backed road map peace plan.
Actually, they'll be easier to rein in when they're all dead. But we know the Paleos won't kill them all...
The air strike was part of Israelâs continuing response to a suicide bombing last week that killed 21 people. The suicide bombing, in turn, was in response to Israeli attacks that killed a number of Hamas members in an ongoing cycle of tit-for-tat killings. tit: Paleos kill 30 civilians on a bus, tat: Israel kills 3 or 4 armed militants....i.e.: moral equivalence AP style
"If the Israelis thought assassinations would destroy our determination to continue in our resistance, to continue defending ourselves, they are mistaken," Hamas spokesperson Ismail Haniyah said. "We will move ahead whatever the sacrifice."
He still doesn't get it. We'll be able to tell when he realizes he's on the list when he heads out for France for "consultations."
The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al Qassam, promised revenge, saying in a statement "our response will be painful and quick."
It'd better be quick, because...
Israelâs army chief, Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon, declared Sunday that ``every member of Hamas is a potential target for liquidation."
Prob'ly starting with the al-Qassam Brigades.
Meanwhile, Yasser Arafat appointed Jibril Rajoub, a former West Bank security chief, to the vacant post of national security adviser, his latest move to outflank U.S.-backed Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas in a struggle over control of security forces. Arafatâs the turd in the punchbowl - flush him
Jibril used to be head of "preventive security" in the West Bank. He never actually managed to prevent anything, but he did pull down a salary and he was one of Yasser's right hand men. You could tell Yasser loves him â His Excellency pulled a rod on Jibril as they called each other bad names about a year ago...
Abbas and his security chief, Mohammed Dahlan, have said they need to control all security forces to confront the militants. But Arafat has refused to hand over key units. A meeting on the issue broke up late Sunday with no decision. Rajoub, who has taken part in security talks with Israel and speaks fluent Hebrew learned during years in an Israeli prison, said a national security council will be formed under Arafatâs leadership. "It will oversee the reform of the security forces," in co-operation with international mediators, Rajoub said. Rajoub was fired by Arafat as West Bank security chief in July 2002 after a falling out. rejection/embrace? Paleo culture of lies and subterfuge
Abbasâ office declined comment, while Palestinian cabinet minister Ghassan Khatib said the appointment "does not have much significance" because the post of security adviser has no clearly defined authority.
Nothing in Paleostine is clearly defined except for the blood on the floor...
Israel, meanwhile, intensified its policy of hunting down and killing militant leaders, saying the Palestinians have failed to crack down on the armed resistance.
They're talking about it though... Actually, they're talking about having a meeting to talk about it... Or maybe having a meeting to make plans to talk about it... Or fixin' to get ready to hold a meeting to make plans to talk about it ... Or...
In Gaza City on Sunday night, Apache helicopters fired three missiles at armed men near a crowded beach front, killing four members of Hamasâ military wing and wounding more than a dozen bystanders. Some of the victims were decapitated by the assault, which took place just 100 metres from Dahlanâs office. "The first missile hit the car, four people fled the car and then three more missiles were fired at them. ... It was difficult to look at the scene," said Abdel Salam Abu Askar, a Palestinian journalist.
Was the guy decapitated, or did his head just fall off? There's a difference...
Israeli security officials said one of the dead, Ahmed Aishtawi, was a top operative who had planned and executed attacks in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. A Hamas spokesman said Aishtawi led a unit that had pioneered the firing of homemade rockets into Israel and at Jewish settlements.
Ain't that a coincidence? The IAF has pioneered the firing of professionally made rockets into parts of Paleostine to kill Hamas thugs...
About 1,500 mourners marched through Gaza City on Monday in a funeral for Aishtawi and another Hamas member. One speaker warned Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon "to prepare coffins."
That's why you're lugging one today, Mahmoud...
"We are on the way, and we say to him that your assassinations will only bring death and destruction to your people in their own homes," the man said. Pointing a rifle toward the two bodies, he added: "All of us wish to be in their places."
"And will be, soon!"
The crowd carried green Hamas banners, but Hamas leaders stayed away. hiding still?
Israel has stepped up army sweeps through West Banks towns following the Hamas suicide bombing last week. Troops have been searching house-to-house for fugitives and weapons, sparking clashes. Dozens of tanks and armoured vehicles also have gathered along the Gaza border, apparently ready for an order to raid the coastal strip. In the last three years of fighting, Israel has killed scores of wanted resistance fighters. The Israeliâs never formally joined the ceasefire declared by the Palestinians in support of the road map.
But they didn't kill people at random, either...
Meanwhile, police and soldiers removed some 50 Jewish settlers and a trailer from a site in the West Bank city of Hebron, police said. Five settlers who refused to go were arrested, police said. Since November, when an Islamic Jihad ambush in the area killed 12 security guards and soldiers, settlers repeatedly have tried to set up an outpost. Under intense U.S. pressure to keep commitments under the road map peace plan, Israel has dismantled several West Bank outposts but has failed to freeze construction at established settlements or remove dozens of other unapproved outposts.
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 11:10:22 AM ||
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Nice call, Fred. I'd forgotten about the "gunfight" in Ramallah corral. What a pathetic soap opera of power plays...kinda like "Dallas" meets "The Gods Must Be Crazy"
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 12:10 Comments ||
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#2
Under intense U.S. pressure to keep commitments under the road map peace plan, Israel has dismantled several West Bank outposts but has failed to freeze construction at established settlements or remove dozens of other unapproved outposts.
Maybe if the Palestinians lived up to their end of the deal - rooting out and dismantling terror groups - then this sort of criticism might actually be worth the effort expended to write it.
#3
So now Hamas is really pissed. They're becoming militant and if Isreal and it's allies don't back off they may become violent. That could be unfortunate. UN sanctions might help, perhaps a cooling off period.
#4
If a man once indulges himself in murder,
very soon he comes to think little of robbing;
and from robbing he next comes to drinking
and sabbath-breaking, and from that to
incivility and procrastination. Thomas DeQuincy
#5
very pithy .com, but nobody can beat Lucky for sarcasm, the above was a classic. I bow to the master
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 13:15 Comments ||
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#6
Israel killed four of its members in a missile strike and declared anyone in the militant Palestinian resistance group a target for "liquidation."
Does that also apply to Arafat????
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
08/25/2003 13:33 Comments ||
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#7
Yeah, we're just gonna keep promoting people into management until all of them are wacked by the Israelis. What? What do you mean, no one wants to be promoted?
#9
"If the Israelis thought assassinations would destroy our determination to continue in our resistance, to continue defending ourselves, they are mistaken,"
Make no mistake, Mr. Haniyah, you and your fellow rabid dogs have made it very clear to Israel that your determination is unshakeable. They are not trying to destroy your determination - they are trying to kill you.
That's what's done to rabid, vicious animals.
It just so happens that a dead, rabid vicious dog has considerably less determination to slaughter than a live one. ( To all you dog-owners out there, I'm sorry to lump your pet in with Hamas - it's just metaphor )
#10
What was that aircraft carrier we were about to decommission, the Constellation? Maybe we should give it to Israel instead, along with about 400 Apache helicopters and a couple of thousand Hellfire missiles. They do seem to be getting the best bang for the buck in the War on Terrorism. With a carrier, Israel could attack Gaza from several directions at once.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/25/2003 14:09 Comments ||
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#11
Actually OP, Gaza's available from all directions except overflying Egypt - they might take a dim view of that. The Connie would be beneficial to Israel only as a platform for a mutual destruction nuke delivery site should any blackhat take Rafsanjani's advice to heart. I'd think Israel would benefit more from a up-to-date sub with cruise missile capability, and I believe they have/or are close to having that.
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 14:26 Comments ||
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#12
Frank G, they've got 3 of them: The first-of-class INS (Israeli Naval Ship) Dolphin was commissioned in 1999, INS Leviathan and INS Tekuma in 2000. The mission of the submarines is to carry out interdiction and surveillance operations and special missions.
The submarine has the capacity to carry up to 16 surface-to-surface missiles or torpedoes. The surface-to-surface missile is the submarine-launched Harpoon, which delivers a 227kg warhead to a range of 130km at high subsonic speed.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 16:46 Comments ||
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#13
Frank G / Lucky - I wasn't competing, I posted it to confirm that great minds think alike -- Lucky and DeQuincy! ;-)
Palestinian sources stressed that the Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud Abbas appointed his foreign minister Nabil Shaath as an official representative to the meetings of the Arab League on Palestine instead of the chairman of the PLO political department Farouk Kaddoumi. A member at the revolutionary council of the Palestinian national liberation movement ( Fatah ) said that organizational and political difference erupted inside the movement because of this decision. Sounds like they are unhappy. Gunfire to follow.
The Fatah official said in a statement in Amman that Abbas sent an official "message" to the AL secretary general Amr Moussa a short time before notifying him that the "Foreign affairs minister in the Palestinian government Nabil Shaath is as from now assigned to represent the Palestinian side at the AL conferences and the meetings of the Arab foreign ministers." Iâm sure somebody here knows what this means.
It looks to me like Abbas is trying to take control of at least a part of the government. I'd guess that Yasser still has the strength to stop him, in the long run â but it's a good sign that Abbas thinks he can try. I wonder if it's too late, though. If he'd been able to replace Yasser's people with his own six months ago, the IAF might not be banging people today...
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 11:11:06 AM ||
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Considering that the Arab League is a not even a sham; just a hollow mockery of a travesty of a sham (language from my memories of a Woody A. movie), this PA dispute would be amusing if it weren't for so sad.
A man charged with trying to fight U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan was secretly recorded saying that the leader of Portlandâs largest mosque funded the overseas trip with money that came from mosque members, according to a newly released FBI affidavit. Jeffrey Battle, a member of the so-called Portland Seven, also was secretly recorded telling how Mohamed Abdirahman Kariye, religious leader of the Islamic Center of Portland, participated in a prayer session at the mosque with the group just before the men left. No charges have been filed against Kariye, who is on probation for federal fraud charges he admitted to earlier this year.
"Theyâre not true," Mark Cross, Kariyeâs mouthpiece attorney, said of the allegations in the affidavit. "His biggest concern is his relationship with God and how his actions in this world will impact on his standing in the next. In that light, he can live with himself." Heâll have plenty of time to contemplate his relationship with God in the slammer.
Six men were indicted on charges they traveled to China in October 2001 in a failed effort to reach Afghanistan to fight U.S. troops. One remains a fugitive; another, Maher "Mike" Hawash, recently pleaded guilty and is cooperating with authorities. One woman was indicted on charges she helped fund the trip. Prosecutors and investigators have long suspected that a larger group was behind the efforts of the Portland Seven. The affidavit by Portland FBI agent Mark McBryde made public Friday relies heavily on excerpts from recorded conversations between a government informant and two defendants. Most excerpts come from Battle, who defense attorneys have said in court filings was boasting and exaggerating when talking to the informant. "He was, er, lying. Yeah, thatâs it, lies, all lies!"
The affidavit said Battle described the Portland mosque as "the only mosque to teach about jihad" and that Kariye told his followers they should fight with other Muslims in Afghanistan against Americans. Battle said he had "talked to Kariye about jihad," the affidavit said. Another defendant, Patrice Lumumba Ford, told the informant that Kariye "has spoken out very strongly for jihad," the affidavit said. Battle also described how the trip was financed. He told the informant that Habis Al Saoub, a Jordanian who remains a fugitive, "approached Kariye regarding financing for the trip by the jihadists." Battle said Kariye gave Al Saoub $2,000 for each of the men and the money was acquired from members of the mosque. Later, after his arrest, Battle told investigators that he got $2,000 from Al Saoub, and he believed the money came from "brothers" at the Portland mosque. Got them on tape, and Hawash has flipped.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 10:25:07 AM ||
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#1
saw on LGF yesterday that the Indymedia Jerusalem islamic web site is threatening Hawash with Dire Revenge⢠should he spill his guts with all he knows - how can this be? We were all assured by the usual suspects (CAIR, et al) that he was pure as the driven snow!
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 11:45 Comments ||
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#2
In the US you can preach jihad in your mosque, avail yourself of a drive-through on the commute home in time to enjoy your favorite syndicated episode of Melrose Place on cable.
No TOW missiles through the rear window for our malcontents. Our revolutionaries, radicals and extrememists even enjoy a Slurpie now and then.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 12:22 Comments ||
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Crime in the United States fell last year to the lowest level since records started being compiled 30 years ago, the US Justice Department has said. About 23 million violent and property crimes were reported in 2002, compared with some 44 million in 1973, according to the annual survey by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The decline was seen in every category of crime measured by the department. Attorney General John Ashcroft attributed the drop to the work of police and prosecutors. But some crime experts say tougher prison sentences and the building of additional prisons are more likely explanations. What a suprise, locking criminals up cuts crime.
Violent crimes fell from 10.5 million incidents in 1993 to 5.3 million in 2002. Crime against property over the same period was also relatively lower, falling from 319 crimes per 1,000 households to 159. Rape or sexual assault was down 56%, while robbery was down 63%, and aggravated assault down 64%. The decline in violent crime was experienced by all demographic groups, the survey said. However there has been a slight rise in the number of murders, which are measured separately by the FBI. In 2002, 16,110 people were murdered - a 0.8 percentage point rise on 2001, according to preliminary statistics based on police reports from across the country.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/25/2003 9:11:08 AM ||
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Wait for the NY TImes....it can't be more than a day or two before a headline: "America's Failure: Why Are Our Prisons So Packed? Crime is at an all time low"
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 9:35 Comments ||
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#2
With respect to locking up drug offenders, I prefer a deportation process. If we shipped druggies to the country that produced their favorite product, the entire drug industry would be more efficient. The mark-up on some drugs is incredibly inflated.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 10:18 Comments ||
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#3
If we shipped druggies to the country that produced their favorite product, the entire drug industry would be more efficient.
The problem, of course, is getting the drug-producing countries to take these parasites off our hands. Good idea, though.
#5
Crime stats are frequently used and misused. The 'longer prison sentences' causes fewer crimes or 'more incarcerated' causes fewer crimes conclusion is not an automatic. It may be that in States with no increase in the incarcerated population, there were bigger decreases in crime than in States with large increases in the incarcerated population. The internals of these statistics need to be looked at closely before conclusions are drawn.
#6
mhw - my sisters' a crime analyst for the SDPD, and based on the recidivism rate the majority of crimes are committed by a hardened few, the lengthier sentencing keeps more of them in prison - ergo less crime from those repeaters....there's always exceptions, and for small drug user crimes, I'd think rehab or drug court is more appropriate than locking them up with the hard boys
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 12:07 Comments ||
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#7
Crime is a young mans game. The baby boom gen is aging. I know/knew many druggy criminals and they are either dead now or pretty burnt up. A new baby boom of people from South of the border could lead to a new crime wave in the near future.
#8
Frank, you're close. The headline in the NYT will be:
Prison Population Levels Questioned As Crime Hits 30 Year Low.
Posted by: R. McLeod ||
08/25/2003 20:59 Comments ||
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#9
Gee who'd have thunk it? Put criminals in prison; build more prisons; take away judges discretion in sentencing; and the crime rate goes down. Aw, its just global warming.
Posted by: TJ Jackson ||
08/25/2003 23:16 Comments ||
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#10
"attributed the drop to the work of police and prosecutors. But some crime experts say tougher prison sentences and the building of additional prisons are more likely explanations" If the police and prosecutors don't do their work properly, the sentences won't be handed down and the additional prisons won't be needed. The observation that a small portion of the population commits a large part of the crime is what led to the widespread policy of attempting to identify career crooks and putting them away for long periods: deterring crime by confining those most likely to commit it. This policy seems to be paying off.
EFL
U.S. Marines returned in heavy rains to warships off Liberiaâs coast, insisting shipboard troops would be better positioned to respond to any flare-ups in the countryâs still-gelling peace accord. Sundayâs unannounced departure of the 150-strong fighting force ended a significant U.S. military deployment on the ground after just 11 days. Mission accomplished! Hoist anchor!
Liberians, watching U.S. military helicopters hustling out of sight, spoke fearfully of being deserted in the midst of bringing an end to 14 years of conflict that has claimed more than 150,000 lives. ``Theyâre forsaking us,ââ said Emmanuel Slawon, a 22-year-old watching a U.S. helicopter sortie fly out of Liberiaâs main airport, dangling a Humvee in a giant sling. Aw câmon Emmanuel, you still have the Nigerians.
``We wish theyâd stay until peace would come,ââ Slawon said. ``Their presence here puts fear in our fighters - it makes them think if they carry on hostilities, theyâll be handled by the Americans.ââ Thatâs a good fear for them to have.
A 3-week-old West African peace force has helped stop fighting in Monrovia, but clashes persist in the countryside - sending refugees fleeing this weekend just a few dozen miles from the airport. U.S. military helicopters flew over that region Sunday, on a patrol requested by West African forces to try to help determine the source of gunfire and artillery explosions Friday. Militia fighters manning a government checkpoint in the area reported an early Sunday firefight with rebel forces. Liberian Defense Minister Daniel Chea also claimed fighting persisted Sunday near the Guinea border. State radio claimed up to 1,000 people were killed but Chea said he knew nothing about that. "I know no-fing! No-fing!"
CH-46 military helicopters carried the Marines back out of Liberia on Sunday, in driving rain. ``Letâs hope theyâll have peace in Liberia,ââ said one Marine, heading for the waiting CH-46, its rotors running. Sundayâs withdrawal leaves about 100 U.S. troops still on the ground — 70 guarding the U.S. Embassy, and 30 working as a liaison team with a 3-week-old West African peace force, Lt. Col. Tom Collins, spokesman for the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit force, told The Associated Press. The pullback ``reflects the situation on the ground here,ââ the Marine spokesman said. He cited the now 1,500-strong West African peace force, building to a 3,250-member African force. ``Weâre here to support (the West Africans), but we can do it better from the ship,ââ Collins said. Earlier, Marines had said they could react more quickly on the ground rather than on ships. Marines offered no explanation Sunday for their changed assessment. The force had been charged with backing up the West African troops if they came under attack. The American team largely had stayed at its base at the airport, out of sight of most Liberians. Clearly no one at Al-Guardian has any appreciation of mobility.
The first U.S. show of force came hours after President Charles Taylor resigned. In the following days, U.S. forces roaming the front-lines and noisy helicopter and warplane forays over the city likewise made clear the worldâs superpower still was watching. "Red2, this is Home Base, you are cleared for a low-level sonic boom over Monrovia."
"Red2, on the way."
``If they want to leave, they can leave,ââ Col. Theophilus Tawiah of Ghana, chief of staff for the West African force, said Sunday, minutes after the Americans pulled out of sight. Calling the American support helpful, Tawiah added, ``wherever they are, their job is to support us. And they can support us from the ship or wherever.ââ
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/25/2003 2:37:56 AM ||
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Well, Johny has discovered it, no oil, bye bye Liberia uncle Sam has no just causes for you. If you had oil we would have invented some, but live is hard so au revoir black buddies.
Posted by: Murat ||
08/25/2003 3:36 Comments ||
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#2
GAZE at the troll, and his ugly bigotry.
...
Situation stable, pull back to ships. Logical, but obviously beyond the understanding of some simple minds.
#4
Guess,it was not ignorance when you used the term Jap the other day.Turkish bigotry rears it's ugly,little pin-head.
Tell me,Murat,how are those arms shipments to your Turkaman brothers coming along?
#7
Members of the USMC detest bobbing around on ships without keels, PT and beer. Members of the USN hate having gyrines aboard because they lengthen lines for chow, the ship's store and barbershop.
In this case the marines belong inconveniently aboard ship where they can chopper to anywhere immediately without being subject to surveilence. This also prevents deadenders from forming up for raids against US forces. I don't think our intension is to set-up flypaper for every malcontent in Western Africa. These people have been through enough. They deserve peace.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 8:54 Comments ||
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#8
Kurds seem to be doing an excellent job of setting up a stable society with productive citizens. That's why Urat is so deranged - envy. Watch the denial set in
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/25/2003 10:01 Comments ||
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#9
Well as far I can see the US was not very impressing of stabilizing anywhere (Afghanistan), betting on the wrong horses can backfire. The things, which are going on nowadays, are putting up a lot of question marks:
1 You chase away one dictator (Saddam, 25 years Baath leader) and install two midget dictators (Barzani 30 years PDK leader, Talabani 30 years PUK leader) in the name of (democracy????) who are terrorist in the eyes of the Arabs like the Al qaeda for the Americans.
2 In order to press down the Iraqi Shia (less resistance) you allow some 8000 Iranian (supposed member of the axis of evil) backed Badr forces to virtually control the Shia lands.
No wonder that no single Arab believes when Johnny shouts: we have liberated you.
Posted by: Murat ||
08/25/2003 10:18 Comments ||
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#10
Well as far I can see the US was not very impressing of stabilizing anywhere
Yeah. Japan, Germany, and Italy are still major threats to world peace. As for recent events -- what is it with people who will hold grudges over events over 50 years ago, but who make judgements based on less than a year's worth of work?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
08/25/2003 10:30 Comments ||
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#11
As far as I can see the Turks really stabilized Armenia once and for all.
#12
Barzani and Talabani are only 2 members of the 25 member Iraqi Governing Council, and the 9 member rotating presidency. The Governing Council is certainly not acting as a dictatorship, like the Saddamite regime. Talabani and Barzani are widely reported to have run relatively liberal societies in Kurdistan for the last 10 years, very different from Saddamite govt.
Are they terrorists in the eyes of the arabs (as opposed to the Turks?) Well so far I have heard nothing about arabs in Iraq complaining about them. Care to share a citation with US?
Re Shia area: Coalition forces control Shia areas, not Badr forces. In any case the Badr allied SCIRI is on the Iraqi Governing Council, which is NOT endorsed by the Iranians. Iran seems to be backing Sadr instead, against SCIRI.
#13
As for recent events -- what is it with people who will hold grudges over events over 50 years ago, but who make judgements based on less than a year's worth of work?
Turks are just weird. They should be ticked off at the Brits and the French for dismantling the Ottoman empire. But instead of directing their ire where it properly belongs, they point to Uncle Sam. (I'm not commenting on the legitimacy of Turkish empire, but we are surely not to blame for the decline and fall of Turkish empire).
I suspect part of the pique relates to our thwarting of Turkish ambitions in Iraqi Kurdistan. A weak Iraq under Saddam with no political role for the Kurds was an Iraq in which Kurdish areas could potentially be annexed to Turkey. With Uncle Sam across the border, the Turks are basically immobilized, which is why they want us to leave as soon as possible. An Iraq in chaos could be pacified by Turkey, in the same way that Syria moved into Lebanon.
#14
An Iraq in chaos could be pacified by Turkey, in the same way that Syria moved into Lebanon.
Yeah sure buddy, as if we put Iraq into chaos, do the words Bush senior, Bush junior, Gulfwar 1, Gulfwar2 in combination with Iraq have any meaning to you? But your little closed eyes makes it difficult for you to see the world realities don't they my Chinese buddy.
Posted by: Murat ||
08/25/2003 11:03 Comments ||
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#15
Murat, did you even read what Zhang posted?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
08/25/2003 11:11 Comments ||
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#16
Murat, you're getting even more mean-spirited than before. You need to apologize to Zhang Fei.
Posted by: Tom ||
08/25/2003 12:33 Comments ||
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#17
Situation stable, pull back to ships. Logical, but obviously beyond the understanding of some simple minds.
1. Easier logistics/support.
2. Less surveillance.
3. Less of a target.
4. Puts ECOMIL/ECOWAS at the forefront.
5. Gives our resident Turk something to froth at the mouth over.
#18
Murat's just channeling Wild Dumrul. He's upset because we don't believe in paying tolls to cross bridges over dry riverbeds. (g)
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/25/2003 13:18 Comments ||
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#19
"Bush senior, Bush junior, Gulfwar 1, Gulfwar2 in combination with Iraq have any meaning to you? "
To paraphrase Jethro Tull(Aqua Lung album): Urat,how long do you think it would have taken Oday and Qusai to start"eying little Turksih girls with bad intent".
The U.S. is a terrorist in the eyes of Arabs, just like everybody else who's not currently kissing Arab ass.
So why would the U.S. give a flying fuck what the Arabs thinks?
Posted by: Mike N. ||
08/25/2003 15:10 Comments ||
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#21
Murat, let me make my feelings known on a few topics:
1) I don't give a DAMN about Turkey--your backwards-ass country had its opportunity to do something positive and instead forfeited any say in who does what in Iraq;
2) I don't give a DAMN about Muslims. Until "moderate" Muslims GROW A PAIR and learn to stand up against murder, butchery, terror, the abuse of women, etc etc etc, they TOO have forfeited any right to have any say in who does what anywhere;
3) I don't give a DAMN about your sorry ass--you combine the worst traits of the two groups above.
#22
To Mr. Crawford's citation of Germany, Japan, and Italy we might also add Greece and Turkey in the aftermath of WWII.
I believe it was the threat of communist insurgency in those countries in 1947 that led President Truman and Secretary of State Marshall to come up with the Marshall Plan for all of post war Europe.
Murat should be thanking Uncle Sam for the fact that he's living in a nominally democratic nation instead of posing as Chomsky with a hookah.
#23
Personally, I liked Izmir. I bought a cool rug.
Posted by: Steve D ||
08/25/2003 18:03 Comments ||
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#24
In case anyone is puzzling over my reference to Wild Dumrul, it is to the great work of Turkish legends known as THE BOOK OF DEDE KORKUT:
The Book of Dede Korkut: Legend V
LEGEND V
"The Story of Delu Dumrul, Son of Duha Koja
My khan, among the Oghuz people there was a man by the name of Delu Dumrul, the son of Duha Koja. He had a bridge built across a dry river bed. He collected thirty-three akchas from anyone who passed over it, and those who refused to pass over it he beat and charged forty akchas anyway. He did this to challenge anyone who thought he
was braver than Delu Dumrul to fight, with the purpose of making his own bravery, heroism, and gallantry known even in places as far distant as Anatolia and Syria."
W.D.'s little extortion scheme may sound familiar,
and his money-making bullying met opposition from an even more potent force than the US Armed Forces.
Murat just never learns anything...
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/25/2003 19:42 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
