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| Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia |
| Russian Ground Forces Assault Vital Georgian City |
| 2008-08-11 |
| TBILISI, Georgia Russia expanded its attacks on Georgia on Sunday, moving tanks and troops through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advancing toward the city of Gori in central Georgia, in its first direct assault on a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said. The maneuver along with aerial bombing of the Georgian capital, Tbilisi suggested that Russias aims in the conflict had gone beyond securing the pro-Russian enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia to weakening the armed forces of Georgia, a former Soviet republic and an ally of the United States whose Western leanings have long irritated the Kremlin. Russias moves, which came after Georgia offered a cease-fire and pulled its troops out of South Ossetia, sparked widespread international alarm and anger and set the stage for an intense diplomatic confrontation with the United States. Two senior Western officials said that it was unclear whether Russia intended a full invasion of Georgia, but that its aims could go as far as destroying its armed forces or overthrowing Georgias pro-Western president, Mikheil Saakashvili. They seem to have gone beyond the logical stopping point, one senior Western diplomat said. The escalation of fighting between Russia and the former Soviet republic raised tensions between Russia and its former cold-war foes to their highest level in decades. President Bush has promoted Georgia as a bastion of democracy, helped strengthen its military and urged that NATO admit the country to membership. Georgia serves as a major conduit for oil flowing from Russia and Central Asia to the West. But Russia, emboldened by windfall profits from oil exports, is demonstrating a resolve to reassert its dominance in a region it has always considered its near abroad. The military action, which has involved air, naval and missile attacks, marks the largest engagement by Russian forces outside its borders since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Russia also escalated its assault Sunday despite strong diplomatic warnings from President Bush and European leaders, underscoring the limits of Western influence over Russia at a time when Western Europe depends heavily on Russia for natural gas and the United States needs Moscows cooperation if it has any hope of curtailing what it sees as a nuclear weapons threat from Iran. Russian officials say Georgia provoked the assault by attacking South Ossetia last week, causing heavy civilian casualties. But Western diplomats and military officials said they worried that Russias decision to extend the fighting and to open a second front in Abkhazia indicated that it had sought to use a relatively low-level conflict in a conflict-prone part of the Caucasus region to extend its influence over a much broader area. There was heavy fighting Sunday on two fronts. Russian artillery shells slammed the city of Gori, a major military installation and transportation hub in Georgia. In the separatist region of Abkhazia, Russian paratroopers and their Abkhaz allies battled Georgian special forces and tried to cross the boundary into undisputed Georgian territory, Georgian officials said. Russia bombarded Tbilisis international airport shortly before Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner of France, who was sent by the European Union to attempt a mediation, was due to land. It twice bombed a factory in the capital. Russias Black Sea Fleet patrolled the coast of Abkhazia, and its Ministry of Defense said Russian warships had sunk a Georgian gunboat that fired on them. The Kremlin declined to say whether its troops had entered Georgia proper but said all its actions were intended to strike at Georgian military forces that had fired on its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia. Russia denied any intention of occupying Georgia. We have enough territory to think of, a Kremlin spokesman, Aleksei Pavlov, said. We dont need Georgia. The Bush administration said Sunday that it would seek a resolution from the United Nations Security Council condemning Russian military actions in Georgia. And in a heated exchange with his Russian counterpart at the United Nations, Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad of the United States accused the Kremlin of seeking to oust Mr. Saakashvili. He charged that Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov had said as much during a telephone conversation with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Sunday morning. In that conversation, Foreign Minister Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Rice that the democratically elected president of Georgia must go, Mr. Khalilzad said. I quote again: Saakashvili must go. : Mr. Khalilzad said the comment was completely unacceptable. In Washington, American officials reacted with deepening alarm. They said that Georgian troops had tried to disengage but that the Russians had not allowed them to. The Georgians told them, Were done. Let us withdraw, one American military official said. But the Russians are not letting them withdraw. They are pursuing them, and people are seeing this. The official added: The Russians have gained all of their military objectives. This is not about military objectives. This is about a political objective removing a thorn in their side. Tensions with Mr. Saakashvili escalated when he made a centerpiece of his presidency the reunification of Georgia with Abkhazia and South Ossetia, pro-Russian regions that won de facto autonomy in fighting in the early 1990s after the Soviet Union fell apart. Russia has issued passports to many residents in the territories and has stationed peacekeeping troops in them. Heavy fighting broke out last week in South Ossetia when Georgian troops tried to take its capital in what now appears to have been a major miscalculation. Russian officials say that up to 2,000 people have been killed in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, as Georgia pounded the city with missiles, and that 30,000 have fled the territory into Russia. Refugees arriving in southern Russia reported devastation in Tskhinvali. Russia says it is acting to protect residents there and to punish Georgia for the assault, which Georgia says was to protect Georgian enclaves in the territory from attack and to push out illegally deployed Russian troops. But Georgian officials expressed alarm on Sunday that Russia might be aiming to take Gori, about a 45-minute drive south from Tskhinvali. Gori, a major staging area for the Georgian military, sits in a valley that is the main route connecting the east and west halves of Georgia. Shota Utiashvili, an official of the Georgian Interior Ministry, said the Russians had moved tanks and troops to within a few kilometers of Gori and were trying to cut the country in half. He said that if they tried to occupy Georgia, there will probably be guerilla warfare all over the country. Mr. Utiashvili said: We need large supplies of humanitarian aid, because we have thousands of wounded. And weapons. We need weapons. We are not going to surrender. We will take this to the end. Artillery and tank fire could be heard from the outskirts of Gori on Sunday evening. Later, during a pause in the fighting, Georgian military personnel appeared to be flowing into the city. Georgian officials said they would defend it. Ambulances with flashing red and blue lights roared back and forth on the highway between Gori and Tbilisi, along with military troop transports and families fleeing from Gori in cars and donkey carts. The whole family is running away. There is nowhere for us to take shelter, said Ketevan Sunabali, 40, who had left home in a pair of red Winnie the Pooh slippers. She said she had heard the bombs exploding at the outskirts of the village and seen the smoke and just jumped in the car with her husband, without stopping to take any of her belongings. I had a home. I had a father, said Gogita Kazahashvili, 29. My father died today from the bombing. Ive seen with my own eyes. My house was destroyed. I buried my father myself, by where the house was. A refugee who said he was fleeing from Kakhvi, which he described as a Georgian-controlled enclave squeezed between parts of South Ossetia along the winding border, said Russian forces were in the village. He said Russian soldiers had come to his house, and he had run away. Along the road, refugees carried their possessions in wheelbarrows and plastic bags. A New York Times reporter saw artillery being fired from Russian-controlled areas into Georgian territory near the villages of Eredvy and Prisi, about two miles from Tskhinvali. Grassy fields were burning in the villages and clouds of dust rose with the impact of the shells. Even one close Russian ally expressed alarm about the possibility of Russian troops moving on Gori and clashing with Georgians on unchallenged Georgian territory. If it happened, then its a big mess, its a big problem, because it is direct confrontation, said Maksim K. Gvindzhiya, deputy foreign affairs minister for the de facto government of Abkhazia. Its going out of the conflict zone. Fighting escalated in Abkhazia as well, Mr. Gvindzhiya and Georgian officials said. Russia doubled the number of its troops in Abkhazia to about 6,000 early Sunday, landing paratroopers at an airport in Sukhumi on the Black Sea coast. There was heavy fighting in the Kodori Gorge, the only area in Abkhazia that Georgia controls, with Russian paratroopers ferried in by helicopter. In Washington, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice worked through the night Saturday with other Bush administration officials on a Security Council resolution. American diplomats said that they did not want an actual Security Council vote on the resolution until Tuesday or so, the better to draw out the debate and publicly shame the Russian government. While the resolution will carry no punitive weight, and is almost sure to be vetoed by Russia, a permanent Council member, the hope is that it could create more pressure for a cease-fire, officials said. Meanwhile, Georgian and Western diplomatic officials said that Georgia had offered a cease-fire proposal to Russia, though Russian officials did not acknowledge receiving such an offer. |
| Posted by:john frum |
| #174 Agreed - hit the tip jar folks. And click trhu some of the ads. The Russian Bride ones are pretty funny. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 22:31 |
| #173 Questions - 1) are the Georgians our allies? 2) is there a need for the Russians to push past Ossetia into Georgia proper? If 1) is a yes then we have an onus to act. W needs to relay to Putin that they have a week to pull back to Russia proper an allow human aid. If the Ruskies balk at that then it's time to run some stealths up there under a moonless sky & whack some of their front line tanks and troops. If 2) is a no then the EU/NATO and UN have an onus to act (though I will not hold my breath) As I said in another thread, the Chinese gov't is laughing. |
| Posted by: Hupusong Hatfield aka Broadhead6 2008-08-11 22:31 |
| #172 We seem to be heading toward a rantburg record on this thread. Bandwidth costing money perhaps hitting Fred's tip jar is a good plan? |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 22:14 |
| #171 Denis: 1) whether you admit that fact, what to a zone of the South Ossetia conflict during the period till August, 8th, 2008 on legitimate rights there were Russian peacemakers? The Russians in South Ossetia are peacekeepers the way the Germans in the Sudetenland were peacekeepers. Denis: 2) whether you admit that fact, what in a consequence of Actions of the Georgian army during the period from August, 8 till August, 10th has been destroyed about 2000 civilians of South Ossetia? It would be nice to get people in to look at the evidence instead of relying on Russian claims. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 20:05 |
| #170 I can't add much to the discussion about Russia's invasion of Georgia except this. |
| Posted by: badanov 2008-08-11 20:01 |
| #169 Does this mean, I am not "welcomed" any longer? Goodness, no! You, of all the new posters who've appeared today, have generated an interesting discussion, General Comment. Besides, I am not one of the moderators, being qualified neither by training nor temperament, so my opinion doesn't count in such matters. I mentioned OldSpook's qualifications merely to give you an idea of the level of knowledge you are debating. I am the sole example here of genus Common American Housewife -- the others actually have expertise in the various areas discussed on this site. I can't speak to incomes, although of course I earn nothing. Most of us have travelled abroad, though, whether for business or pleasure, and many have lived elsewhere. Some of course, define elsewhere as home. (Can anyone venture a guess as to why we haven't heard from our French or English correspondents today? Usually they all check in at some point, but it's now bedtime across the pond. A pity -- it would be helpful to know what they are hearing and seeing over there.) An international law firm? You'll have plenty to discuss with the various lawyers who post here, then. It should be educational, especially for me, which is one of the reasons I hang out here. :-) lotp, Mr. Wife decided against a medical career as well, although he was headed into research. He'd been doing work at a post-doc level in oncology. I'm awfully glad he chose to become an engineer instead -- I'd have been a terrible doctor's wife. I've done much better as a corporate international trailing spouse... and had lots more fun! Not to mention that trailing daughter #1 is starting her freshman year in the 300-level for German, her second mother tongue. (Yay!) |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 19:37 |
| #168 Denis: What right did the Russians have putting "peacekeepers" inside the borders of Georgia? What right do the Russians have to conquer cities inside Georgia itself? If this were about South Ossetia, the Russian army would have stopped with it. They haven't; the whole damned South Ossetia story is nothing more than a false pretense, just like Hitler's concerns for the Germans in the Sudetenland. |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 19:33 |
| #167 Would a friend once commanding 10,000 Spetznez and a few other things have any Russian credential traction with you? Maybe a second year college prof with her PhD from the motherland? How about working with ex-KGB regional guy? How about several KGB electronic and programming guys? NO? Knowing the designer of this on a first name basis? No? How about drinking beer with these guys? NO? Well what would be credentials for you? Maybe these folks also found around here? link |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 19:30 |
| #166 << You want to compare credentials? Want a weblink to mine??? I can assure you that I have more credentials and make more money - and money is the american way, right, so be prepared to lose.>> Oh, I'm sure someone posting from a corporate law firm whose main offices are in NYC and Paris makes a good deal of money (assuming you're not a summer intern). shrug Mr. Lotp turned down medical school for a military career. Money is far from our first value and that's true for many here. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-08-11 19:11 |
| #165 Greetings from Russia. =) I ask the PARDON for bad English is a machine translation. I Will ask you to answer some questions. Two variants of the answer: Yes or not. If the answer is other I reserve the right to itself to consider you as the person not capable to meaningful dialogue. I hope at you courage will suffice. To begin with two questions: 1) whether you admit that fact, what to a zone of the South Ossetia conflict during the period till August, 8th, 2008 on legitimate rights there were Russian peacemakers? 2) whether you admit that fact, what in a consequence of Actions of the Georgian army during the period from August, 8 till August, 10th has been destroyed about 2000 civilians of South Ossetia? |
| Posted by: Denis 2008-08-11 18:33 |
| #164 [Me has been pooplisted.] |
| Posted by: Me 2008-08-11 18:19 |
| #163 Actually, correction about the last one. There appear to be some. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 18:08 |
| #162 About the "newbies" and "coincidence." I don't see any other recognizable russians on the blog today besides me, if others would be from "official" russia, they would be recognized by you guys. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 18:02 |
| #161 "But we arent only debating how Russian people FEEL, we are debating what is HAPPENING in georgia, and that may differ from how Russian people FEEL about it." The two are clearly interconnected. The russian people do have a say into how much the military bombs. If they feel, the military should bomb, it will continue bombing. There are polls. There are polls which are independent from the goverment. Kremlin watches the polls. And Dmitry Medvedev - a son of university professors from St. Peterburg - is not of the make who wants lots of bodybags, military or civilian, russian or georgian. And president of Russia, even if not Mr. Putin, is not an inconsequential figure. Accordingly, I would tend to think that the Russians would not want to escalate the conflict to the extent it would leave a lot of bad aftertaste. To the one who asked for $50 bucks, I hope it was a joke: giving to a charity unrecognized by the IRS would be improper :) I would lend you, if I knew you'd give it back. Stereotypes: I have them . . . I read a lot of CNN - news made in Atlanta, Georgia. Those tend to develop stereotypes. About the "democratic tradition" - yes, U.S. has it. Russia does not. That's the reason for the problems. But Georgia does not either, so don't think they are the angels. In fact, in this war, I think they are lying SOBs. Conclusion of my postings: At this time, given the current circimstances and the degree of the russian military response I think it's ok. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 17:58 |
| #160 General Comment You would be surprised whom are among my friends.. We agree to disagree on many things... -even this- but.. all agree the USSR was a disaster and the path since has not been one that causes them to move back to Russia, no matter what opinion they voice... |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 17:50 |
| #159 Remember, we don't gnaw on our kitty. |
| Posted by: Spoper B. Hayes7914 2008-08-11 17:43 |
| #158 |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 17:36 |
| #157 Too many newbies in one day for this to be just a coincidence. Sorry. Not convinced they are coming here to learn either, although I'm sure there is some learning going on...ie that the Russian action in Georgia is not going over well in world opinion and that the bear may actually have stepped in it. Will we see thousands of purple ink-stained fingers waving in the air? Is that the historically pure motivation of Russian military action? Me thinks it is not. |
| Posted by: remoteman 2008-08-11 17:31 |
| #156 could it be bots? They dont even bother looking to see if the same has already been posted. Mind you, these are the guys who hacked down Georgian websites, and before that estonian ones. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 17:26 |
| #155 Just typing as a fellow commenter, General Comment, no one here (as far as I know) wants you to leave. I know I don't. Could you lend me 50 bucks? |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 17:25 |
| #154 "and money is the american way, right, " Er no. theres a long tradition in the US that some things are MORE important than money. Theres also a social democratic tradition in the US, one that I like to consider myself in part heir to (even if im centrist on economics) You seem to have some real stereotypes about the US, and that doesnt aid communications. Also there are many here who are not ex-military. I for one. And no, I dont claim to know the feelings of Russian people, though Ive met many russian emigres, Ive read Tolstoy and Doestevsky and Solzenystsin and Pasternak, Ive taken a course on Soviet politics in college. But we arent only debating how Russian people FEEL, we are debating what is HAPPENING in georgia, and that may differ from how Russian people FEEL about it. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 17:25 |
| #153 People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : www.1tvrus.com/ , www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , www.rian.ru/ , www.vesti.ru/news , news.ntv.ru/ , www.ren-tv.com/ , www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell is not present to WAR!!! |
| Posted by: marat 2008-08-11 17:24 |
| #152 "You've been welcomed here, General Comment. But Rantburg discussion tends to be at a pretty informed level, which means you have to be prepared to defend your opinions at that level." Does this mean, I am not "welcomed" any longer? Or not sufficiently "informed?" And what was that about the "talented programmer?" You want to compare credentials? Want a weblink to mine??? I can assure you that I have more credentials and make more money - and money is the american way, right, so be prepared to lose. BTW are those musings of just one moderator or all of them? However, since this appears to be a "former military" types blog, you guys are already brainwashed and I am prepared to leave anyway after I read your response. Also, it appears that you do not want to listen the info that you are not going to read in the local newspapers. Being military does not make you "pretty informed" and especially does not make you russian, who knows the opinions of the russians. It goes without saying that you may continue to support your already formed opinions, feel good about rehashing the old stereotypes, and otherwise enjoy your insider's blog: it is for the insiders afterall, right? |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 17:20 |
| #151 Or what was known in the bad old days as the Nomenklatura. |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 17:19 |
| #150 . Russia does not yet have the "Russian elites" as you understand them in an american sense. i meant the KGB-military-security axis that has been running the Kremlin and dominating russian govt since before Putin took office, and that in recent years is increasing its hold on Russian industry and media. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 17:06 |
| #149 "Im not talking about Serbia - Im talking about the bitter humiliation Im convinced some Russian elites feel at the fall, arrest, and death of Slobo." I don't think this is true. Russia does not yet have the "Russian elites" as you understand them in an american sense. This is b/c (i) history of communism, (ii) again b/c of communism, russian society is more urban (in a european not american sense, that is it is more concentrated in large cities). The elites are beginning to be formed now, when education is no longer free, and there is a significant separation by income. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 17:02 |
| #148 You've been welcomed here, General Comment. But Rantburg discussion tends to be at a pretty informed level, which means you have to be prepared to defend your opinions at that level. We've also got a significant number of current and former military here, and engineers of various sorts, so the language can be correspondingly blunt and salty. OldSpook, f'r instance is both a retired Special Forces sergeant and a talented programmer. This is a good place to learn whether one's gut feel on an issue is justified or in need of modification. Enjoy! |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 16:59 |
| #147 well then, I dont think keeping it together was possible. Too many people wanted to leave it (esp Balts, Ukrainians, Georgians), and the level of violence to hold it together was becoming extreme. at the very minimum that would have prevented the transition to a new society. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 16:58 |
| #146 on the contrary I think their position has been shown on US media, and defended by pundits in the Christian Sci monitor, NYT, and elsewhere. Certainly I dont think the prowestern position is shown as fairly in Putins USSR. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 16:57 |
| #145 "the disintegration of Russia, or of the USSR?" -USSR. People still remember that. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 16:56 |
| #144 I support Russia on this blog, because I believe that they don't get fair coverage, especially on CNN. MSNBC and Yahoo are a little better. I have searched and stumbled upon this blog. I believe that the russians are not acustomed to shaping the right perception which is a huge part of good public relationships (there is a cultural aspect here) and they do not present the information in the most favorable way, like Georgia is doing right now (of course blatantly slanted to its side - that's what gets me). You may say that is because Georgia has learned the freedom of speech, they are being trithful, and because Russia is less free than Georgia, and accordingly it just rips the benefits of its own labor, so to speak. However, this is not entirely true. I watched Saak and Ivanov's respective video clips, and Saak comes across better. Ivanov comes across as defensive, but this is because he is emotional and already "anticipates" U.S.'s negative perception. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 16:51 |
| #143 "Comment", its pretty simple. We can created doznes of "Afghanistans" due to Russian suppression of freedom. Live by the jackboot, die by the response. You are sowing the seeds now by squashing freedom instead of spreading and securing it. Enjoy the dozens of little afghanistans sucker. Either that, or push Putin and his thugs out and start behving liek a civiized nation (instead of bombing innocent civilians in a terroristic campaign like you are now). I hoep you enjoy every one of those body bags coming back home from IEDs, EFPs, snipers and guerilla actions that you will reap. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 16:50 |
| #142 "That's evil." No its not, its realpolitik. Its increasing the cost of certain actions to Russia, so Russia will stop doing those actions. " Besides you are lumping every two-but dictator together. Russia has never considered Saddam an ally." Take a look at Putins "you hanged Saddam for taking out some Shiite villages, but Saak must live" comment. Its clear to me that the bitterness over Saddam is intense. " As for Slobo - that's a trickier question. It is true that the russians view serbs as allies, well, not so much in a political sense, but more like a friendly nation or ethnic group. Kind of similar to how americans view the British on a people's level. Albanians are moslems, they have strange German-sounding names and thus are more distant to the ordinary russians. Although, as a side note, russians have tatars and bashkirs - they are moslems. Tatars and baskirs have always lived in Russia and are integrated into the society very well and are thus part of Russia. But ultimately, you'd have to ask them, b/c it is their opinion that matters." Im not talking about Serbia - Im talking about the bitter humiliation Im convinced some Russian elites feel at the fall, arrest, and death of Slobo. "In this country, some people also feel reservations about those who practice Islam for the very same reasons." Well I dont, so dont group me with them. Im against anti-muslim bigotry. "About infliction of pain: you are just going to slow down the Russian GDP growth." it will effect more than GDP. It will be political above all, and designed to humiliate Putin in every way possible. Russians may think weve been trying to do that already, but they are wrong. Weve hardly been paying attention to Russia. You wont like it when we do. "I agree that this is unpleasant, but it will be unpleasant for the ordinary russians. They have some sort of democracy, but not as fast acting as to effectuate a fast change. Besides, ordinary russians already dislike americans due to the perception that U.S. had a hand in dissolution of the Soviet Union. It is not that they long for the soviet system, it is that they feel that the system could have been changed to capitalism without the disintegration of the country." the disintegration of Russia, or of the USSR? "If the U.S. were to help Georgia, the russians are going to hate americans for it deeply. I am just saying it the way it is. Good or bad." I hate russians for what they are doing now. and for what they have done. Opposing united action for change in Sudan, Burma, Zimbabwe. Helping the Iranians. Blackmailing and threatening Poles, Czechs, Balts and Ukrainians. Supporting tyranny in central asia. For the last 8 years they have been doing hateful things. But this is much bigger. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 16:46 |
| #141 "Well, then, we will be equally cynical. You want to show you can avenge the fall of your allies, the deaths of Slobo and Saddam by destroying Georgia, well we will show we can inflict pain on you as well." That's evil. Besides you are lumping every two-but dictator together. Russia has never considered Saddam an ally. As for Slobo - that's a trickier question. It is true that the russians view serbs as allies, well, not so much in a political sense, but more like a friendly nation or ethnic group. Kind of similar to how americans view the British on a people's level. Albanians are moslems, they have strange German-sounding names and thus are more distant to the ordinary russians. Although, as a side note, russians have tatars and bashkirs - they are moslems. Tatars and baskirs have always lived in Russia and are integrated into the society very well and are thus part of Russia. But ultimately, you'd have to ask them, b/c it is their opinion that matters. In this country, some people also feel reservations about those who practice Islam for the very same reasons. About infliction of pain: you are just going to slow down the Russian GDP growth. I agree that this is unpleasant, but it will be unpleasant for the ordinary russians. They have some sort of democracy, but not as fast acting as to effectuate a fast change. Besides, ordinary russians already dislike americans due to the perception that U.S. had a hand in dissolution of the Soviet Union. It is not that they long for the soviet system, it is that they feel that the system could have been changed to capitalism without the disintegration of the country. If the U.S. were to help Georgia, the russians are going to hate americans for it deeply. I am just saying it the way it is. Good or bad. As for Putin and Co. - again, this is just the way it is going to be for now. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 16:36 |
| #140 Darrell: I don't know why anyone would think that the Russia of today is any different than the Russia that rolled tanks into its puppet states decades ago. Take one dose of Stalinist/KGB culture, mix it with WWII-inspired paranoia (needing buffer puppet states for protection), and stir in ugly demographics, economics, and alcoholism and you've got Russia today. The cold war didn't end with the disintegration of the Soviet Union -- it just temporarily warmed a bit while Russia struggled to get back on its feet. Putin is just Krushchev with a higher IQ and better manners in public. He's still a thug on a grand scale. Russian territorial acquisitiveness neither started with the Bolshevik Revolution nor ended with Communism. It's now gotten a major funding boost with the proceeds of sharply higher commodities prices. In fact, the action against Georgia is a ploy to monopolize access to Azerbaijan's energy resources. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 16:34 |
| #139 They came to Rantburg to be educated, remoteman, as did we all. ;-) |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 16:30 |
| #138 Sure are lots of newbies here today. Funny that. Funny too that they all seem to be supporting Russia. Yeah...just kind of, you know, an odd coincidence. |
| Posted by: remoteman 2008-08-11 16:27 |
| #137 Finally, why is it that Russia cannot respond with full military force to attack on S.O. which is under protection of its peacekeepers? Oh, I know, you are going to say, that's because the peacekeeps are russian and because Russia is an imterested party here there is a conflict of interest. But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway . . . The Russians are occupation troops on the way to making South Ossetia (and Georgia) Russian soil. At 17m sq km, Russia is larger than the second largest country in the world by about 70%. But Russians will never be satisfied until growing numbers of foreigners taste the dirt from the soles of Russian boots. We are looking at the resumption of the expansion of Russian empire that began centuries ago, and was uninterrupted neither by revolution in 1917 nor counter-revolution in 1989. It figures. As Richard Pipes pointed out, the problem with Russia wasn't ever that it was Communist - it was because it was Russian. Today's Russians are the equivalent of the Germans in the inter-war period - they feel aggrieved and will expand until they meet serious resistance. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 16:27 |
| #136 "Democracy does NOT mean anyone who wants independence gets it." Tell this to Texas, please! Excuse me?!? Last I checked, Texas declared independence, kicked another country's ass, and then got bored and hooked up with team USA. Texas wanted it. Texas fought for it and paid in blood for it. |
| Posted by: Anon4021 2008-08-11 16:26 |
| #135 Purpose of the USSR? (Now that we see it is not Russia.) |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 16:19 |
| #134 No GC, I didn't mistype, which leads to the next question - why is there a "North" Ossetia? Here's a hint - Russia has shown how they end a line of questions on a topic they don't approve. And they don't approve lots of topics. Actually, that's a good question - what does Russia approve? Better yet, what is the point of Russia? Even Solzhenitsyn never quite seemed to figure that out. |
| Posted by: Spoper B. Hayes7914 2008-08-11 16:18 |
| #133 Please, check this out. It's really important http://war.georgia.su/news.htm |
| Posted by: ~~ 2008-08-11 16:13 |
| #132 I don't know why anyone would think that the Russia of today is any different than the Russia that rolled tanks into its puppet states decades ago. Take one dose of Stalinist/KGB culture, mix it with WWII-inspired paranoia (needing buffer puppet states for protection), and stir in ugly demographics, economics, and alcoholism and you've got Russia today. The cold war didn't end with the disintegration of the Soviet Union -- it just temporarily warmed a bit while Russia struggled to get back on its feet. Putin is just Krushchev with a higher IQ and better manners in public. He's still a thug on a grand scale. What the Russians are doing today in Georgia is aggressive and homicidal. It is in no way justified by anything done by the Georgians. It is a power play that would be reckless except for the precedents of decades ago in which they did similar things to puppet states and got away with them. The difference is that Georgia is not a puppet state. So where do you stand, all you Canadians and Russians who have crawled out of the woodwork here today? With Putin? You are unworthy of Rantburg. |
| Posted by: Darrell 2008-08-11 16:12 |
| #131 "To pick just one issue, does Russia support North Ossetian independence, or international peacekeeping arrangements?" I don't know what Russia supports. But Russia would not probably want international peacekeepers. Also, you probably, mistyped, b/c North Ossetia is a part of the Russian Federation. South Ossetia is part of Georgia. S.O. wants to reunite with North Ossetia and consequently become part of the Russian Federation. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 16:09 |
| #130 the chechen attacks on Russian territory came AFTER the Russian attempt to eliminate Chechnya. They would probably not have occured had the rest of the world recognized Chechnya, or sent troops into end Russian control there. However teh rest of the world did not, as they respected Russian sovereignty. In other words, had the rest of the world treated Russia as Russia is treating Georgia, russia would have lost Chechnya. The only difference is that Russia is bigger and stronger than georgia, and could have defended itself, with nukes if necessary. Russias entire arguement in georgia comes down to force. Well, then, we will be equally cynical. You want to show you can avenge the fall of your allies, the deaths of Slobo and Saddam by destroying Georgia, well we will show we can inflict pain on you as well. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 16:09 |
| #129 But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway . . . That's about a D- effort there, bub. There are UN peacekeepers in Georgia. You can read about them at the link: LINK . In fact, UN observers were the first to confirm the Russian seizure of the Georgian town of Senaki. |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 16:05 |
| #128 Finally, why is it that Russia cannot respond with full military force to attack on S.O. which is under protection of its peacekeepers? Oh, I know, you are going to say, that's because the peacekeeps are russian and because Russia is an imterested party here there is a conflict of interest. But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway he did, and IIUC he was unsuccessful because the Russians refused. as for Texas, no democracy did NOT mean texas automatically had the right to independence. Texas achieved its OWN independence by revolution, without the assistance of the United States. Mexico was unable to supppress that independence. The US recognized that independence, as did major european powers. Then, later, at the request of texas, the US annexed texas. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 16:04 |
| #127 The Chechnya analogy. Chechens really began bothering russian people. Including the attack on Ingushetia. How about Beslan? I am surprised they did not nuke the place. And the reason they did not nuke the place is because they were a lot of russians in Chechnya. Plus the ecology would suffer :) Listen, russians were good enough when they let Georgia go, and the other "repiblics." You want too much from the people. You think that the people are "hollier than thau." Patience runs thin at some point. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 16:03 |
| #126 Wow General Comment - you're wandering all over the reservation here. To pick just one issue, does Russia support North Ossetian independence, or international peacekeeping arrangements? (PS - may not want to mention the Texas Independence movement too loudly, there are all sorts of interesting conditions, including the right to further subdivide into a final total of five states! If one Texas is good, think how great five would be!) |
| Posted by: Spoper B. Hayes7914 2008-08-11 16:03 |
| #125 "Democracy does NOT mean anyone who wants independence gets it." Tell this to Texas, please! |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 15:56 |
| #124 Who is a "liberalhawk"? Also, who are the "Jewish boys?" |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 15:53 |
| #123 Finally, why is it that Russia cannot respond with full military force to attack on S.O. which is under protection of its peacekeepers? Oh, I know, you are going to say, that's because the peacekeeps are russian and because Russia is an imterested party here there is a conflict of interest. But Saakashvilly could have chosen political means to invite international peacekeepers. I don't know whether he tried. He probably did but was unsuccesful. Anyway . . . I think that in its response to Georgian attack, Russia is being too timid. It should not confine itself to strikes just in S.O. territory and nearby Gori, for example, but should completely destroy Georgian military's command and control infrastructure throughout Georgia. Saakashvilly should stay. If Georgians want to later re-elect him (or not) that's up to them. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 15:50 |
| #122 Actually, Shashkavili did practice law in the U.S. for several years before going back home. Hardly a rush. Ha! You are our beloved liberalhawk, then? I feared that it couldn't be that two such nice, erudite Jewish boys would find Rantburg both useful and congenial. I have to admit, though, the sG nym doesn't trigger in some the visceral dislike of Liberals. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 15:46 |
| #121 why are the analogies with Chechnya improper - it seems a much closer analogy than Kosovo or iraq. Democracy means that Ossetians and Abkazians should have democratic rights within Georgia - and Saak offered them autonomy, far more than Slobo offered Kosovo, or then the Putins friends in China offer to Tibet. Democracy does NOT mean anyone who wants independence gets it. And if you want to know yet again what was unique about Kosovo, we can tell you AGAIN. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 15:41 |
| #120 I don't mind that Saakashvilli is a lawyer who went into politics. What I do mind is that he is seeking support of a develped democracy (this country) to advance his non-democratic recapture of the territories which politically disagreed with him in 1992. Analogies of S.O. and AB with Chechnya are improper. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 15:30 |
| #119 No, I was talking to General Comment / to_Fei / etc. etc. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-08-11 15:29 |
| #118 that was to LOTP, btw |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 15:29 |
| #117 you talking to me?:) You want the hawk back? |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 15:28 |
| #116 he's Russian (and Israeli), which I should have guessed from the name I would applaud your foray into linguistic detection "Zhang Fei", but---unfortunately---the word "gromgoru" comes from an imaginary language invented by a German-American SF writer. |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2008-08-11 15:28 |
| #115 Stick to one 'nym please. I can see who you are but the non-mods can't unless I take the time to make it explicit here. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-08-11 15:26 |
| #114 I am flattered re "professional propaganda." But this is just what I think, that's all. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 15:19 |
| #113 "It is all part of the show to subdue the people of South Ossetia and Abkhasia to the totalitarian (Saudi Arabia like) regime of Saakashvilli, but make it appear "or so european."" nothing Saudi arabia like about Georgia. That the KGB propagandists resort to these lies is telling. " South Ossetia and Abkhasia together constitute a lot of people," SO by itself is only 70,000, and nothing was happenign in Abkhazia to justify the Soviet (aw hell, lets call a spade a spade) intervention. " who clearly did not want to be part of Georgia. " Chechens didnt want to be part of Russia. "In fact they fought for their independence and won it in 1992." They won de facto independence, cause Scheverdnadze was working with Russia. Note, de facto independence has no legal meaning (as in teh case of Taiwan) till its declared, and then survives. " Saakashvilli was elected, partly, on a promise to recapture those territories, which was a clear pandering to Georgian nationalists." No more so than Putins promise to regain Chechnya was pandering to Russian nationalists. Putins attempt to reconstitute the USSR goes beyond that, of course. " Now, how come Saakashvilli speaks passable English - which comes so handy to shape (and misshape) the Western world's public opinion. That's because he did a stint in a U.S. law school. But don't think that has made him undersand and appreciate American ideals of freedom and democracy. And don't think he intended to practice law. " Lots of american lawyers go into politics, its not a big deal. "Just like some of the terrorists educated here, he rushed back to his native Georgia," except he isnt a terrorist, and slipping in "just like" is, er, a classic stalinist rhetorical ploy. " because there was a power void, and he was young and ambitious and wanted that power really, really bad. So, that summs up that guy." Sounds like a pretty typical democractic pol to me. I suppose you prefer ex-KGB agents. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 15:15 |
| #112 Now a note about the "beacon of freedom" Saakashvilli (or what's his name?). Great spinmaster. Have you seen him giving a press conference with Georgian flags alongside the EU flags! Georgia, of course, is not a member of the European Union. , usw, etc, etc. Now that's professional grade baloney. |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 15:12 |
| #111 And a hearty welcome to you too, "General Comment"! (Is Colonel Propaganda warming up the keyboard?) |
| Posted by: Halliburton - Blogosphere Welcoming Committee 2008-08-11 15:11 |
| #110 Now a note about the "beacon of freedom" Saakashvilli (or what's his name?). Great spinmaster. Have you seen him giving a press conference with Georgian flags alongside the EU flags! Georgia, of course, is not a member of the European Union. It is all part of the show to subdue the people of South Ossetia and Abkhasia to the totalitarian (Saudi Arabia like) regime of Saakashvilli, but make it appear "or so european." South Ossetia and Abkhasia together constitute a lot of people, who clearly did not want to be part of Georgia. In fact they fought for their independence and won it in 1992. Saakashvilli was elected, partly, on a promise to recapture those territories, which was a clear pandering to Georgian nationalists. Now, how come Saakashvilli speaks passable English - which comes so handy to shape (and misshape) the Western world's public opinion. That's because he did a stint in a U.S. law school. But don't think that has made him undersand and appreciate American ideals of freedom and democracy. And don't think he intended to practice law. Just like some of the terrorists educated here, he rushed back to his native Georgia, because there was a power void, and he was young and ambitious and wanted that power really, really bad. So, that summs up that guy. |
| Posted by: General Comment 2008-08-11 15:06 |
| #109 LOL mrp |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-08-11 15:05 |
| #108 To Clint H: Dude, you are sick! Whoa. Moby-to-Moby posting. You kids need to leave this kind of stuff to the professionals. |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 14:46 |
| #107 To Zhang Fei: And you know that the people behing this blog are "intelligence people." All the way from China you can see that??? |
| Posted by: To_Fei 2008-08-11 14:43 |
| #106 To Clint H: Dude, you are sick! |
| Posted by: To_Clint_H 2008-08-11 14:41 |
| #105 Somebody said that two of the Rantburg moderators are "fluent in Russian." This probably, means being able to read a label from a vodka bottle. Give me a break! Intelligence people must be able to do much more than that. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 14:39 |
| #104 geez, now the flooders are insulting the mods. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 14:37 |
| #103 Matt K: (like his wife, already in the States) What are you talking about? Sandra Roelofs was in Beijing cheering on Georgian athletes on August 9. I can't imagine she could have flown back to Georgia during a shooting war, given that Russian jets were controlling Georgian skies. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 14:36 |
| #102 Somebody said that two of the Rantburg moderators are "fluent in Russian." This probably, means being able to read a label from a vodka bottle. Give me a break! |
| Posted by: Just_a_comment 2008-08-11 14:36 |
| #101 gromguru: I guess they've learned from the "Kosovo Crisis", TW. You mean the crisis where the US annexed Kosovo so that it became a US territory, such that all Kosovars are now American citizens? That Kosovo crisis? I think I'm beginning to see where gromguru's anti-American hostility is coming from - he's Russian (and Israeli), which I should have guessed from the name. I can't figure out why he's so supportive of Russia, which is the country that supplied the Arab countries in the Yom Kippur War, and threatened to intervene on the Arab side with Russian troops. |
| Posted by: Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 14:17 |
| #100 I love the smell of war! Bring it on! We in the USA have been waiting a long time to smash the Russians and it is time. Hello, Moby! |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 14:15 |
| #99 I love the smell of war! Bring it on! We in the USA have been waiting a long time to smash the Russians and it is time. Your arrogant president and KGB prime minister will lead you to defeat. We will remind you of your violent losses in Afghanistan for it was our bombs and missiles that the Afghani's used against you. |
| Posted by: Clint H 2008-08-11 14:13 |
| #98 Chapt 11... Phone rang as I typed... |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 14:08 |
| #97 Hello "Russian Guest"! Welcome to Rantburg! |
| Posted by: Halliburton - Blogosphere Welcoming Committee 2008-08-11 14:07 |
| #96 Julia, how do you justify the acts of war, the naked act of agression, the actions of a thug - Russia - the blockading of the ports, the invasion and occupation of Gori, the bombong of civilians in and around Tblisi? Russias attacks, invastion and occupation of Goergia outside the disputed areas makes Putin and you liars - if yiou were only there for S.O. you;d have accepted the ceasefire now tat wll the Georgian troops are out of the area. But Russia has continued with unwarranted agression into Georgia proper. How do you expect the US and west to not respond? Your nation is becoming a pariah, led by a gangster, Putin. He is dragging you and your country the same way Hitler did Germany, by appelaing ot Nationlism. Do you really want to end up with the same fate as Nazi Germany? DO you really beleive you can avoid it with your current imperialistic actions? |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 14:06 |
| #95 Saakashvili! Get out of Georgian Government! You're not President! You're clown! Georgian Citizens don't want your "democracy"! |
| Posted by: Russian_Guest 2008-08-11 14:04 |
| #94 I'm just waiting for Julia to start quoting Lermontov. :) |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 14:04 |
| #93 Julia - thanks for the reply, but I'm a bit confused - what are the grounds for Russian involvement and how do they apply to the various ethnic groups scattered across the Caucasus - in other words - if South Ossetia should be independent, what about North Ossetia? Should Georgia be independent? Chechnya? Sakhalin? Should Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Scotland and so on? Russian force is fairly easy to understand, but I'm trying to discern any policy or logic behind the Russian actions? Finally, it's interesting that there's been very slight reference to Orwell, and only the normal violations of Godwin's law. I suspect both will appear more prominently shortly. What concerns me the most is not what's being reported, but what's not being reported. |
| Posted by: Floluth Poodle6813 2008-08-11 14:02 |
| #92 Matt K - let me understand somethign about you... You take great pleasure inseeing a dmeocratically elected western govenrment overthrown militarily and occupied by Russia. You have no empathyfor the thousands of dead cilivians and demolished cities the Russian army had produced deliberately. You seem to make excuses for every overt act of war by Russia - indeed you take glee at the death of free men defending their country against an internal agressor. Why? |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 14:01 |
| #91 I see this as proof that the USSR did not fall. Rather it just did a Chapter 10 bankruptcy reorg. |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 14:00 |
| #90 "Schadenfreude. lotp? Not at all - we call it here: "what goes around comes around"." nothing is coming around. This isnt Kosovo, and it isnt Iraq. "As for Georgia - Saakashwili is gone (like his wife, already in the States), like it or not." the operas not over till the fat lady sings, as we say here. "And all this adventure will be a stern warning to others in Europe - do nor count on Americans (Bush alone admits this), they won't die for Danzig or Gori..." We died in large numbers to free Europe, and your words are an insult to the American war dead. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 13:56 |
| #89 I know I shouldn't laugh at other's mastery of a foreign language, but some of the posts sound like we've gone through a stargate and are trying to communicate with the indigenous peoples. Back on topic... if Russia tries to topple Georgia, I hope we're lined up for Afghan1980_2.0 YAPWAB - Yet Another Proxy War Against the Bear. |
| Posted by: Anon4021 2008-08-11 13:53 |
| #88 I do not offend, and it became simple funny, considering what legends go... In occasion of English books - I shall by all means consider, to you I recommend not öèêëèòüñÿ on treatises about Americans - events, that now occur - not in territory of America, and concerns America only indirectly, due to the "promised" support of Georgia, due to supply by armies and the weapon. Look history of the Russian state, look history of Caucasus. Here that now speak about Georgia and Ñààêàøâèëè: Online-ïåðåâîä÷èê PROMT "Ñêîëüêî êðîâè îñåòèí åùå äîëæíî ïðîëèòüñÿ, ÷òîáû ìèðîâîå ñîîáùåñòâî ïðèçíàëî íåçàâèñèìîñòü Ðåñïóáëèêè Þæíàÿ Îñåòèÿ?" - ãîâîðèòñÿ â çàÿâëåíèè Ýäóàðäà Êîêîéòû.  ñâîþ î÷åðåäü, Ñåðãåé Áàãàïø îòìåòèë, ÷òî ïîñëå òðàãè÷åñêèõ ñîáûòèé â Þæíîé Îñåòèè "íè ó êîãî â ìèðå íå äîëæíî îñòàòüñÿ èëëþçèé, ÷òî Àáõàçèÿ è Þæíàÿ Îñåòèÿ ñìîãóò ñîñóùåñòâîâàòü ñ Ãðóçèåé â åäèíîì ãîñóäàðñòâå". "Ïîñëå òðàãè÷åñêèõ ñîáûòèé â Öõèíâàëè ìåæäóíàðîäíîå ñîîáùåñòâî äîëæíî ïðèçíàòü íåçàâèñèìîñòü Þæíîé Îñåòèè è Àáõàçèè, - äîáàâèë îí. - Äåéñòâèÿ Ãðóçèè â Þæíîé Îñåòèè ìîæíî îõàðàêòåðèçîâàòü èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî êàê ãåíîöèä îñåòèíñêîãî íàðîäà". À òåïåðü ïîïûòàéòåñü ïîíÿòü - öåëîñòíîñòè òåððèòîðèè Ãðóçèè áîëüøå íå áóäåò, è ìèðà òàì òîæå íå áóäåò. Òåìà: Òðàíñëèòåðèðîâàòü íåçíàêîìûå ñëîâà: Ïðîâåðèòü îðôîãðàôèþ Show/Hide Virtual Keyboard Ïðîâåðêà îðôîãðàôèè âûïîëíÿåòñÿ ñèñòåìîé ÎÐÔÎ Ñêà÷àé íîâûé ïåðåâîä÷èê PROMT 8.0 Ïåðåâîä - òî÷íåå, ðàáîòà - óäîáíåé, âîçìîæíîñòè - øèðå! Ðåçóëüòàò ÏÅÐÅÂÎÄÀ " How many blood the osset still should spill, that the world community has recognized independence of Republic South Ossetia? " - it is spoken in Edward Kokojty's application. In turn, Sergey Bagapsh has noted, that after tragical events in South Ossetia " at anybody in the world should not remain illusions, that Abkhazia and South Ossetia can coexist with Georgia in the uniform state "." After tragical events in Tskhinvali the international community should recognize independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, - - It has added. - actions of Georgia in South Ossetia can be characterized exclusively as a genocide of ossetic people ". And now try to understand - integrity of territory of Georgia any more will not be, and the world there too will not be. |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 13:52 |
| #87 A question for Julia, Matt and others on the, er, Russian side of the discussion - What evidence or reporting is there showing Georgian, let alone other (American/Turk/Azeri/Ukrainian) aggression, or even military operations IN RUSSIA against RUSSIAN forces? If anything, it seems that to this point, most, if not all, of the "west" has acted to throttle Georgian combat operations. Note the emphasis on RUSSIA - a side question becomes whether you assert that Ossetia (north or south) is Russian, and if so, why are they separated? Finally, on the question of "Russian citizens" in Ossetia, there are many "Russian citizens" in Brooklyn - should there be "Russian"/"Soviet"/"Peacekeeping" forces in Brooklyn also? Thanks for any insight! |
| Posted by: Floluth Poodle6813 2008-08-11 13:41 |
| #86 Schadenfreude. lotp? Not at all - we call it here: "what goes around comes around". As for Georgia - Saakashwili is gone (like his wife, already in the States), like it or not. And all this adventure will be a stern warning to others in Europe - do nor count on Americans (Bush alone admits this), they won't die for Danzig or Gori... |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 13:33 |
| #85 Julie, that your husband is a soldier should make you very proud. It is good to defend one's homeland against aggressors. I'm sure there are many things he must not tell you, and things that you know that you may not share with us. So it is, too, with those of us here at Rantburg who are in the military, or have relatives who are. But look at the sources of the articles at this site, the last few days. We are not getting our news alone from UPI or CNN or Western Europe. Perhaps you, too, will learn something that you did not know. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 13:27 |
| #84 The question for you, my dear old cold war enemies, is are you ready for a shooting war with the US? FOr your illegal, and immoral, offensive in to Georgia proper is setting up jsut that. Your troops Soviet style demolition of cities with artillery, deliberate infliction of civlian calsualties in order to terrorize, and your gangster KGB president are setting this up for you. Occupy Georgia and you will learn some things. Ever heard of IED? You will. Ever heard of EFP? You will. Ever seen your oil and gas pipelines blown up? You will. I hope your families are ready for huge numbers of body bags. THey will be coming back from Georgia and other outer areas like they did from Afghanistan. We will make sure they do by arming the Georgians and prmoting guerilla warfare. You sould petition your dictator gangster Putin, the madman who has led your to a position wher he pushes for open warfre with the west, and is rapidly making Russia into a pariah nation. By the way, we will escort ships there full of aid, we will fly the Goergian troops back in our aircraft escorted by our fighters. We will likely resupply them as well. Do you have the guts to try to stop us you modern-day Nazis? |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2008-08-11 13:19 |
| #83 trailing wife, " You ignorant Americans know nothing. " - do not take it personally, actually at any nation is weak and strengths. You know about such historical events, as Great Domestic war much enough. I shall not tell, that all data have remained constant - every year something is reconsidered, specified and so on. My grandfather - the participant of this war therefore too I know enough about it firsthand... In occasion of Stalin, Hitler and so on - will agree, that everywhere and always there is a interest at any government, the greater policy and economy plays the first role always, there is no nation at which would be irreproachable history. I so understand, that you know Russian then read through please the information under these references: http://news.mail.ru/politics/1938241/ http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2008/08/09_a_2806163.shtml http://news.mail.ru/politics/1938674/ http://life.ru/video/4990 http://life.ru/news/30460 t is only small part of that information about which Ñààêàøâèëè óñèëåííî is silent world community. You know a situation on the one hand, we know it on the other hand. Let's our knowledge unite and we shall try to understand, that all òàêè occurs. And I have explained the position: the husband - the militarian, and I will not will should be well informed about events. It at me the even greater patriot, and in occasion of events that occured earlier and now - its statements, than mine are much more logical... Today there was a reporting, that in Italy and other countries censorship very rigidly works, in Georgia the Russian TV and so on is disconnected. Therefore try to admit for 10 minutes, that all actually not how to you present... |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 13:17 |
| #82 MattK is not trying to pursuade - he's simply indulging himself in what he imagines to be schadenfreude. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-08-11 13:09 |
| #81 Oh pooh. All my paragraphing got lost. Dear readers, please pretend there are logical paragraph breaks in that last post. Matt K., will the Russians sustain their naval blockade against Turkish and American ships escorting supplies into Poti for beleaguered civilians? Will Russia attack American fighters escorting the airplanes carrying 2000 Georgian battle-hardened troops and their supplies from Iraq? In other words, will Russia choose to war against the rest of the world just to install a government of an independent ... Mingrelia there? George W. Bush did not stop the conquest of Afghanistan just because many other countries did not want him to do so. George W. Bush did not stop the conquest of Iraq just because many other countries did not want him to do so. Do you think George W. Bush will allow Russia to destroy Georgia just because you declare the war over? This is Rantburg, run by a former intelligence analyst, populated by those who have long paid attention to the details of world events. By what authority, what knowledge, do you dare declare that the war is almost over? I am offended that you insult our judgement so, with no evidence whatsoever. You assume that all here are as ignorant as a simple housewife, that none here have access to more information than Russia puts in her propaganda YouTubes and in Pravda and Isvetziya. Julia has gone to her English books. You would be wise to read de Tocqueville's treatise on Americans written 150 years ago before you offend even worse those you would persuade. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 12:57 |
| #80 mattk You said "you must be american" and implied that Americans in general were ignorant of history and geography. I.DO.NOT.LIKE.THAT I dont think many folks here do. While I cant speak for the mods, I would suggest that slurs against Americans as a group is NOT the way to make yourself appreciated here. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 12:55 |
| #79 Oh for goodness' sake, Matt - leave off the annoying and ill-founded Canadian supercilious contempt partially hidden behind the 'eh. I don't claim to be an expert in the area. I did grow up in a multi-lingual household (including Ukrainian) in which I heard first hand accounts of Stalin, Hitler and events since then in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. And, as it happens, my relatives include Canadians, none of whom would be foolish or shortsighted enough to ignore what our family learned first hand to indulge your sort of book-based oneupman games. By the way, at least two of the Rantburg moderators are fluent in Russian and have military backgrounds in the area. You might want to avoid foolish claims you're ill-equipped to back up. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-08-11 12:53 |
| #78 I bet none of you heard about Ossetia a week ago (like about Kosovo a mere ten years ago and about Bosnia twenty years ago). Get an atlas, start to google - Mingrelia is the ancient Colkhida with her own language, Mingrelian, a western part of today's Georgia. Thanks for the history lesson, Ivan. If true. Before Pearl Harbor, most Americans couldn't find Guadalcanal, Pelilieu, Port Moresby, Iwo Jima, or Okinawa on a map either. The same for Inchon, Khe Sanh, and Anbar province. If something is worth knowing we'll make the effort to know it. You can bet on it. |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 12:53 |
| #77 "Galitizianer - I am not defending current Russian actions at all. All I am doing is opposing current American actions, that's all." the US has taken no action on Georgia yet. So I dont know what you are criticizing that is relevant to the topic. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 12:50 |
| #76 You shut up, Galitizianer - my message regarding Mingrelia was addressed to mrp and not to you. And again - take your history lessons... |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 12:49 |
| #75 most of the Mingrelians are refugees from Abkhazia, they are essentially a subgroup of ethnic georgians, and they are NOT friendly to the Russians or to the Russians abkhazian pals. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 12:49 |
| #74 Oh, well.. it gives a precedence for Israel to take out Iran soon.... |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 12:48 |
| #73 Galitizianer - I am not defending current Russian actions at all. All I am doing is opposing current American actions, that's all. |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 12:47 |
| #72 I heard about ossetia years ago (at least before 2003) And I heard about Bosnia when I first learned about the start of WW1, which i did decades ago. So shut up with the insults already. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 12:46 |
| #71 mrp - you must be American, eh? I bet none of you heard about Ossetia a week ago (like about Kosovo a mere ten years ago and about Bosnia twenty years ago). Get an atlas, start to google - Mingrelia is the ancient Colkhida with her own language, Mingrelian, a western part of today's Georgia. Good Luck! |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 12:42 |
| #70 Mingrelia? Ha. Good one. Try it. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 12:39 |
| #69 matt k, the Polish communists were armed trained and backed by the Russians, and the knowledge of that backing by Poles impacted directly on the "correlation of forces". To pretend that the USSR was not responsible for those crackdowns, or that they would have occurred absent the Soviet presence is absurd. Nice to see that you are not only defending current Russian actions, but the history of the USSR as well. Is there anyone whos a Putin fan who is not also a fan of the pre-Gorby USSR? people in the west trying to understand Putin should reflect on that. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 12:38 |
| #68 Julia dear, you are not the first poster here to whom English is a second (or third, or more) language. We are patient, as long as your thinking is logical, and your knowledge earns our respect. I can answer the question about Hitler for you. My mother was born in Germany in 1926, and spent her youth in Europe under the Nazi regime there and in the Netherlands. As a teenager she was a member of the Dutch Underground (like Tito's Partizans), and her father forged documents to help the fight against the Nazis. The grandfather of the best friend of my younger daughter was a pilot, first for the Polish air force fighting against the Soviet invasion, then for the British after the Soviets murdered all the Polish officers in the forest of Katyn including his own father. My father was a translator for the British army in Persia on the Russian border, helping coordinate the Allies' advances against the German heartland. So I know more than was taught in American school books, and no doubt more than was taught in Russian school books. I heard the stories of those who were there. They tell of the pact between Hitler and Stalin to divide Poland between them, then of Hitler betraying that pact and attacking Russia. They tell of the Nazis murdering the handicapped, the Jews, the Gypsies, the priests and nuns, 11 million in the concentration camps alone. They tell of Stalin sending the kulaks to the gulags in Siberia, the Doctors' Plot purges (äåëî âðà÷åé), of the tens of millions of Soviet citizens Stalin had murdered or who died during the forced collectivizations, even as the Soviet Union fought the war against Nazi Germany. I know that the Soviet troops fought valiantly even though their government did not geed or clothe them properly, or pay them or give them enough bullets. I know that the Russian troops now suffer from similar neglect. I know that from the west the American and British troops, and the Free French, died by the thousands to push the Nazis back from the countries they had conquered. Western Europe is full of the graves of those who gave their lives to end the evil of national socialism, just as Eastern Europe and Western Russia are full of the graves of those who gave their lives to end both national socialism and international socialism. But the wars in Europe were only world wars because they were European wars. America gave of her treasure and her sons fighting on the side of good against evil because it was right, not because it was our war. What quarrel do you have with how the Americans fought in Europe? You do not say. Darrell, one always hopes to raise the discussion to a higher level than, "You ignorant Americans know nothing." Because my knowledge is that of a little American housewife, nothing more. I dare not claim to be an expert, unlike so many here. So perhaps some will learn the reality of what they face, and give over the stereotype. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 12:35 |
| #67 Matt K., thanks :)))))))) |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 12:34 |
| #66 The best thing they can do is to istall a government of an independent ... Mingrelia there. "Mingrelia"? What's that? Some name concocted at a Nashi keg party? |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 12:33 |
| #65 Try to stay in Senaki? No probem whatsoever - Russians do not need to. The best thing they can do is to istall a government of an independent ... Mingrelia there. |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 12:28 |
| #64 We're in big trouble if the russians deploy the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. Then again, we've sorta overdone the field when it comes to defining "Peacekeeper" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118A_Peacekeeper |
| Posted by: Halliburton - Idiot Suppression Division 2008-08-11 12:26 |
| #63 Galitizianer - stop talking nonsense. Radom & Ursus riots in June1976 and Solidarnosc (not Solidarnosck) in December 1981(not 1980) were finished off with Polish communists' hands alone. No Soviet troops were involved it it though, I honestly admit, there was such a risk in 1981. An advise for an advise. You have sent our Julia to her English textbooks and you take your history lessons - it's about time. |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 12:24 |
| #62 "mission accomplished, major combat operations complete" Try to STAY in Senaki. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 12:18 |
| #61 I guess the war is almost over - Russian troops have just taken SENAKI, a major military base and transportation hub in western Georgia. The major Georgian port POTI is cut off from the rest of the rump statelet. No more arms shipments from Israel, no more transit of oil. |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 12:12 |
| #60 You do not understand one all - Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia is Caucasus, and there nobody cancelled blood feud. And now Ossetia and Abkhazia - never will find reconciliation with Georgia. Anybody cannot reconcile it, and especially not Staffs. That them to hold even in a neutrality - it is necessary to live here, to know history on 500 years ago. And to anybody it will not manage to be made of your countries. Here all of you have equally sufferred defeat - you will be compelled to recognize independence of Ossetia and Abkhazia now. Otherwise the Georgian armies should kill all population of these republics, and it already " ethnic cleaning ". Only by then the Russian armies there any more will not be, and the responsibility will lay down on NATO and you:)))))))))) And voluntary armies of the Chechen Republic which you so óñèëåííî try to shame all of us time, already join protection of Ossetia and Abkhazia of Ingushetia, Northern Ossetia and other Caucasian people:))) whether your Georgia SUCH BLOOD FEUD Will sustain:)))) |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 12:05 |
| #59 Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Oh yes, Julia, I remember WWII history. Do you remember Russian feelings when the Germans were marching toward Stalingrad and Moscow in WWII? Well that's how they're feeling in Georgia right now, except that they have almost no capability to resist. |
| Posted by: Darrell 2008-08-11 11:57 |
| #58 Îê if you so have deeply gone to history and the past - and what you can tell in protection of the country in occasion of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And yes, do not forget to specify, what exactly you have won Hitler (all time I forget what exactly such history put in heads to the American schoolboys).:)))))))))))))))))))))) Your "english" is not comprehensible. I cannot respond until you use language that is good english. Please spend more time learning english before you try to propagandize. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 11:55 |
| #57 yes, in 1976 Polish rebels were suppressed by the KGB backed govt of Poland, and Solidarnosck was suppressed in 1980. In neither case would the result have been what it was in the absense of the Soviet presence. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 11:54 |
| #56 Yeah Julia - we're dummies, but just remember this : Al Gore invented the internets. |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 11:52 |
| #55 Stop bluffing and making stories here, Galitizianer. What are you talking about - two Soviet attacks on Poland within four years? When? In 1976 (1968 + 8) and 1980 (1968 + 12)? You can feed this steemy HS to your marines... |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 11:51 |
| #54 Julia, I, for one, am not interested in the lies Putin's Puppets are feeding the Russian people. If this were really about South Ossetia alone, then there'd be no need to go farther than its borders; instead, Russian troops are assaulting Gori. If this were really about South Ossetia, then there'd be no need to blockade Georgia; instead, the Black Sea fleet has sortied and already sank Georgian ships attempting to keep the sea lanes open. If this were truly about South Ossetia, then upon taking control of the territory and receiving a Georgian offer for a cease-fire, Russia would have accepted it. Then there would have been time to bring in neutral observers to document any atrocities. Instead, Russia keeps its troops moving forward, all the while feeding its gullible public a steady diet of Pravda. |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 11:49 |
| #53 Yes yes, also has absolutely forgotten about a roller of interrogation where citizens of Staffs interrogated on different themes and they could not answer, where there is Cuba, and how many the parties at a triangle, and what creed at Buddhist monks.:)))))))))))) Yes yes, also has absolutely forgotten about a roller of interrogation where citizens of Staffs interrogated on different themes and they could not answer, where there is Cuba, and how many the parties at a triangle, and what creed at Buddhist monks.:)))))))))))) |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 11:49 |
| #52 Or a member of Nashi. |
| Posted by: mrp 2008-08-11 11:49 |
| #51 Good luck with that, TW! Are you expecting an honest resume from a KGB hack with third-tier English skills? |
| Posted by: Darrell 2008-08-11 11:46 |
| #50 superstitiousGalitizianer, Îê if you so have deeply gone to history and the past - and what you can tell in protection of the country in occasion of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And yes, do not forget to specify, what exactly you have won Hitler (all time I forget what exactly such history put in heads to the American schoolboys).:)))))))))))))))))))))) |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 11:46 |
| #49 trailing wife, Thanks big for your opinion. I can write and in Russian, but I think here it very few people will read through, and in occasion of my level of knowledge of English - I write as me conveniently, I do not aspire behind perfection in knowledge of English - my native language Russian, and I am obliged to know it in perfection. Want more in detail - my family absolutely usual, I - have small family business, my husband the militarian, and I consider, that to me under the status to be it is necessary ïàòðèîòêîé and the devoted Russia. Yes, for me it is important, that these events have ended as soon as possible, but in a greater degree I am am offended by that the information on events occuring is very strongly deformed for such countries as England, Staffs, Germany and so on. I am am offended by that Ñààêàøâèëè speaks our country one, to you speaks another, all over again does one, in two hours changes the actions on opposite. I - for truthfulness in the information! It is a little later if there is your desire îçíàêîìèòüñÿ-I I shall result here texts of clauses about those actions that now makes Ñààêàøâèëè, can so will see they are how much inconsistent and false. |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 11:42 |
| #48 Do not wish to understand where the truth - wait for consequences. Russia - not that weak country which you have remembered it in the childhood. It was not weak in MY childhood. When I was 8 they invaded Czechoslovakia. When I was 16 they crushed Poland, and they did so again when I was 20. They ruled an empire by force of arms, and they created war and violence around the globe. When I was a young adult it LOOKED like they had changed their ways, but the events of the past week make it look like they have not. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 11:32 |
| #47 superstitiousGalitizianer, We do not require your pardon, our conscience is pure. we do not require yours. You may not want to be isolated though. This isnt 1979. And you are impregnated by that disinformation that pours into your ears of mass-media and Ñààêàøâèëè. I have access to blogs and pundits sympathetic to Russia. Unlike in Russia, in the US owners of TV networks arent routinely imprisoned. And you help Georgia? You have simply thrown on an arbitrariness of destiny of the one who to you was on sale. That does not make sense in English. And is not present, you have well supplied Georgia with the weapon. Yes, as you have supplied Iran, Syria, Venezuala and many other countries with weapons. Georgia is a sovereign nation, and has teh RIGHT to receieve weapons from others. But you have thrown not only it, you have thrown the peace population of Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia. Again, your english is failing you. Instead of understanding the information, that to you gives Ñààêàøâèëè and to help to stop all this bloodshed, you sit and only do proud persons, that other people requires you. Think that want, only in Russia not only in the Government force how think - if the Russian citizens will declare economic boycott to some countries (including Georgia) as the situation will turn? Clearly the govt was behind the boycott of Georgian goods, and uses the state controlled TV to press for its views. Or have forgotten as your president asked from us money (ñòàaôîíä). And give all of us our money from your economy we shall pull out? We never asked Russia for money, other than repayment of debts. You guys have another big lie, that we somehow stole your economy. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 11:30 |
| #46 Julia dear, you want to be a bit more careful. There are some Rantburgers whose Russian is a good deal better than your English. Not I, sadly; after the beginning Russian class at my university was cancelled twice for lack of students, I gave up and took Hebrew. Not to mention those here who've made a study of Russia's historic interactions with its Near Abroad, and those who have a considerable interest in the history and abilities of Russia's armed forces. Clearly you are passionate about your country. But if you wish to persuade, you must give us facts and references so that people here can check their personal libraries. It would be a good idea to also give a bit of your background, so we can judge your level of expertise. Think of this as a discussion at the university, where some of those you argue against have PhDs in the subject. To start the ball rolling: I am a housewife who lives at the outskirts of a city in the American Midwest. My father is a retired professor of biochemistry who was born in Riga. My husband works for a large American company, which has sent him all over the world, including Russia and Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East, North Africa and the Spanish-speaking Americas. I call myself "trailing wife" because shortly after my first daughter was born, my husband was transferred to Germany, where we lived while he helped establish his company in Eastern Europe and Russia. My children sang Czech nursery rhymes with a Brno accent, German ones with a Hessian one, and spoke a mixture of British and American English. Your turn, my dear. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 11:28 |
| #45 He is NOT finished, and if he were, you guys wouldnt be coming here in the attempt to dissuade us from supporting him. Slobos wife, didnt leave, she had no reason to - she was in no danger. In Georgia, a fall of the democratic regime could well mean the rise of the kind of regime that arrests and kills all associated with the previous regime. But thanks for again trying to slip in a nonsensical comparison between Georgia and Serbia. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 11:25 |
| #44 superstitiousGalitizianer, We do not require your pardon, our conscience is pure. And you are impregnated by that disinformation that pours into your ears of mass-media and Ñààêàøâèëè. And you help Georgia? You have simply thrown on an arbitrariness of destiny of the one who to you was on sale. And is not present, you have well supplied Georgia with the weapon. But you have thrown not only it, you have thrown the peace population of Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia. Instead of understanding the information, that to you gives Ñààêàøâèëè and to help to stop all this bloodshed, you sit and only do proud persons, that other people requires you. Think that want, only in Russia not only in the Government force how think - if the Russian citizens will declare economic boycott to some countries (including Georgia) as the situation will turn? Or have forgotten as your president asked from us money (ñòàáôîíä). And give all of us our money from your economy we shall pull out? A collapse be not afraid of economy? Do not wish to understand where the truth - wait for consequences. Russia - not that weak country which you have remembered it in the childhood. |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 11:23 |
| #43 Like it or not - Saakashwili is finished and he is pretty well aware of that. Surprise, surprise - his wife, a certain Sandra Rulofs already packed her coffers and left for ... USA. Somehow, I do not recall Miloshevic's wife leaving Yugoslavia in 1999. PS. Greetings for Julia - keep going... |
| Posted by: Matt K. 2008-08-11 11:19 |
| #42 "the Chechen Republic receives from us grants and much others" I am struck by the parallels between this Russian logic and China's claims to Tibet: "we built them nice roads (that our army uses), so they should be glad to be Chinese". Russia is taking lessons out of the German playbooks from the 1930s. This will not end well. |
| Posted by: Darrell 2008-08-11 11:14 |
| #41 russia has no mandate to do what it is now doing. Russian peacekeepers have no right to stay on Georgian soil against the will of the govt of Georgia. They are clearly not neutral between the parties, and are not peacekeepers. Russia has rejected their replacement by neutral peacekeepers. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 11:08 |
| #40 Lie, lie and once again lie. Recognize already, that all of you to spit on a problem of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. To you to spit on the truth, you are ready to listen only to lie which speaks you Ñààêàøâèëè! You did not see eye of people, citizens of South Ossetia which stood at a building of the Government of Russia and with tears asked them to help! And the people of Georgia ask us for help. It not Russia has attacked Georgia - we lived neighbours so much years and would live 100 more times on so much! when they part of the USSR. And then, when they had a govt that deferred to russia, and did not try to join the EU or NATO or regain their lost territories. But since they have had a govt that defied Russia, Russia has tried to crush them. It is Georgia headed Ñààêàøâèëè, has begun armed attack to Ossetia! An attack on their own sovereign territory. Whats that we hear about "soveriegn democracy"? To me as to the citizen of Russia, is offensive to read that your journalists write. They were not there! Anybody from your country was not there! Indeed, and there were no neutral peacekeepers in S Ossetia, because Russia wouldnt allow them. Georgia wanted the blessing for Southern Îññåòè? The lie, Southern Ossetia more 10 years ago has refused to live under control of Georgia. And now it never will be. We, as citizens of Russia, declare: we do not have purpose of capture of Georgia, we want only that Southern Ossetia and Abkhazia have started to live normally, even as earlier, they are worthy to live independently. They are within the internationally recognized borders of Georgia, and have no more right to independence than Chechnya, or for that matter, Taiwan or Tibet. Or all of you think that we wish to grasp a part of Georgia? Delirium if we wanted it are would occur more 10 years ago! NO, you werent strong enough then, and besides you had a deferential Georgian govt then. You and your government would intercede for the friendly states and republics? We intercede. We want that Georgia has stopped to fire at South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Why should they have to leave their own sov territory? And in any case, they HAVE withdrawn from S ossetia. Yet russians have not. indeed russians are moving beyond into the rest of Georgia. we want that our peacemakers have come back home, and they there perish! Everyone speak that Ñààêàøâèëè has signed documents on cease-fire... And who then last 4 hours again conducts bombardment of our peacemakers? They are responding to Russian attacks. Also why doesnt russia withdraw ITS forces from the combat zone. And why not allow international observers in.? Who continues to kill the peace population? Russia. And you in a rate that already have killed the Georgian armies more than 2 thousand peace inhabitants of Ossetia? " A. The number is unconfirmed by outsiders. B. there is no evidence, apart from accusations by Russia and members of the S Ossetian govt, that Georgians did that deliberately. The Georgian officers have shot the pregnant woman ". Here what reportings are removed by our journalists! The Georgian armies tanks press the peace population, kill children, old men. Russia presents no evidence, despite vetoing UN action on Kosovo despite much greater evidencce. Also Russia vetos action on Darfur, on Burman, on Zimbabwe. Your claim to care about human rights rings hollow. .. Wish to support further lies for all world community? Continue to close eyes and trust the liar. Secret becomes obvious. The liar - mean Putin? Whether can forgive in couple of years to itself your indifference and blindness... The question is whether we can forgive you. And whether the Georgians will forgive us if we dont help them. Citizens of Georgia already for a long time spit on the president and sneer at it. What? |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 11:05 |
| #39 3dc, You suggest the Russian peacemakers to cut out all Georgia?! It it is not necessary for us, we want that Georgia has stopped military actions against Ossetia, Abkhazia and our peacemakers. Everything, that is done now by peacemakers - so it is done under the mandate, done with a view of self-defense and defense of fraternal people! You would began to sit and be silent, if your former "friend-neighbour" began to attack your other "friend-neighbour" who is under your protection? The public in down would pound you after such, |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 10:56 |
| #38 Now if only I could actually understand your dribble .... Its like trying to decipher the Enigma code . |
| Posted by: Mad Eye 2008-08-11 10:52 |
| #37 Dear Russians posting here.. Should the US use similar logic and remove the Castro's? Maybe Chavez? you know.. that "tit-for-tat" thing? |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-08-11 10:50 |
| #36 Thanks big for a greeting |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 10:49 |
| #35 And to you to remind Kosovo? Serbia? Iraq? You there that did? For the truth struggled? To itself even do not say lies. And the Chechen Republic.... And ask the Chechen Republic and its population - whether it is bad it now is? The country puts ours in it of money, opens manufacture, the Chechen Republic receives from us grants and much others ïðèâåëåãèé. We have the mandate and the right given by NATO, to act as peacemakers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. We more than 10 years were there peacemakers, and êîíôëèòîâ was not. While your selling Ñààêàøâèëè has not decided to attach force these republics to the territory in haste to receive the invitation in NATO. |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 10:47 |
| #34 A hearty welcome to the little Rantburg corner of the blogosphere for all of our, um, new visitors. |
| Posted by: Halliburton - Blogosphere Welcoming Committee 2008-08-11 10:45 |
| #33 Julia , you can hardly call the 58th Army "peacekeepers" - murdering butchers maybe but definatley not peacekeepers . Vladimir Shamanov and Chechyna , remember that ? Gosh the Russians have been busy on every blog I have visited - even the BBC Have Your Say forum (much as I loathe it) has got the biggest Moderation queue in its history ! |
| Posted by: Mad Eye 2008-08-11 10:37 |
| #32 Lie, lie and once again lie. Recognize already, that all of you to spit on a problem of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. To you to spit on the truth, you are ready to listen only to lie which speaks you Ñààêàøâèëè! You did not see eye of people, citizens of South Ossetia which stood at a building of the Government of Russia and with tears asked them to help! It not Russia has attacked Georgia - we lived neighbours so much years and would live 100 more times on so much! It is Georgia headed Ñààêàøâèëè, has begun armed attack to Ossetia! To me as to the citizen of Russia, is offensive to read that your journalists write. They were not there! Anybody from your country was not there! Georgia wanted the blessing for Southern Îññåòè? The lie, Southern Ossetia more 10 years ago has refused to live under control of Georgia. And now it never will be. We, as citizens of Russia, declare: we do not have purpose of capture of Georgia, we want only that Southern Ossetia and Abkhazia have started to live normally, even as earlier, they are worthy to live independently. Or all of you think that we wish to grasp a part of Georgia? Delirium if we wanted it are would occur more 10 years ago! You and your government would intercede for the friendly states and republics? We intercede. We want that Georgia has stopped to fire at South Ossetia and Abkhazia, we want that our peacemakers have come back home, and they there perish! Everyone speak that Ñààêàøâèëè has signed documents on cease-fire... And who then last 4 hours again conducts bombardment of our peacemakers? Who continues to kill the peace population? And you in a rate that already have killed the Georgian armies more than 2 thousand peace inhabitants of Ossetia? " The Georgian officers have shot the pregnant woman ". Here what reportings are removed by our journalists! The Georgian armies tanks press the peace population, kill children, old men... Wish to support further lies for all world community? Continue to close eyes and trust the liar. Secret becomes obvious. Whether can forgive in couple of years to itself your indifference and blindness... Citizens of Georgia already for a long time spit on the president and sneer at it. |
| Posted by: Julia (Russia) 2008-08-11 10:30 |
| #31 grom - The west was willing to have neutral forces go into Kosovo, Serbia was not. Cause Serbia wanted to continue its ethnic cleansing. Georgia was willing to have neutral peacekeepers enter S Ossetia. Russia was not. Please stop asserting the big lie that there is anything in common between S Ossetia and Kosovo. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 10:13 |
| #30 Russia has clearly had its army, navy, and air force ready for this action for months I guess they've learned from the "Kosovo Crisis", TW. |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2008-08-11 10:09 |
| #29 Russia has clearly had its army, navy, and air force ready for this action for months, if not years. Even a little suburban housewife like me can see as much -- it takes months to get tanks, ships, men and ordnance lined up on a border ready to roll... and that's for a country with a good logistics organization. Russia's logistics organization is not good enough to keep its troops fed, clothed and with adequate bullets under normal circumstances; it would not be realistic to expect such a complete change for a situation that is only three days old. Those of you posting to this site who claim otherwise are either fools or liars. I would not be so rude as to venture an opinion as to which of you fits in which category. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 09:48 |
| #28 "Russian citizens, living on territory of South Ossetia (approx. 80% of South Ossetian population" Any country with Russian citizens on their soil should consider expelling the excuse for aggression. |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 09:44 |
| #27 "Russian citizens, living on territory of South Ossetia (approx. 80% of South Ossetian population" So if a foreign country gives Chechens citizenship, that will give them the right to intervene on Russian soil? |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 09:43 |
| #26 "Remember who made the first shot: GEORGIA! They've been equiping their troops for the last 4 years and planned this horrific attack on Ossetian civilians. As a result of their bombing Tskhinvali for 2 days, the whole city has been destroyed and more than 2,000 civilians have died. " its not at all clear who fired the first shot. There has been increasing activity by S Ossetian militants in the last couple of days, buildup of Russian troops on the border, and, per the Georgians, the Russians crossed the border first. And Russia has opposed having a neutral UN peacekeeping force. there are also reports (from ethnic georgians fleeing S Ossetia) that the Ossetians were departing BEFORE the fighting started. Anyway, the fact that civilians die when a city is attacked is NOT ipso fact a war crime justifying foreign intervention. If it were, NATO would have been entitled to enter the Bosnian conflict several years BEFORE Srebinica. And they would have been entitled to enter the Chechen conflict, where the evidece for war crimes was much more substantial than here. Anyway, the Georgians have withdrawn from S Ossetia, and yet Russian bombing goes on. Also intervention in Abzakzia. The russian lies are becoming more and more blatant, and when they are called all we hear is increasingly enraged references to Yugo, Iraq, etc (BTW, we do NOT call our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan peacekeepers) |
| Posted by: superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-11 09:42 |
| #25 Warum empfehlen Sie, dass wir die Deutsche Welle sollen lesen? Die is bestimmt eine Zeitung fuer Touristen und solche Nichtskoenneren. Wirklich muss Mann an die alle Sockpuppets hier sagen, "Nichts zu danken!" Sie muessen mein Deutchkenntniss vergeben -- es ist seit dreizehn Jahre, dass wir in Deutschland gewohnnt haben. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-08-11 09:39 |
| #24 People of the world, the information, provided by the international mass media is no true. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia attacked South Ossetia, the troops rolled in. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered the city of Tskhinvali, the capital of the South Ossetian Republic. Whole city was shelling by heavy artillery all day long, there were fights with use of tanks and heavy munition, which were used against both ossetic militia and non-combatants. More than 2000 civillians were killed during Georgian attack. Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening of 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and peace conduction in republic and protection of Russian citizens, living on territory of South Ossetia (approx. 80% of South Ossetian population). Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on the opening day of 2008 Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. |
| Posted by: Maria 2008-08-11 09:32 |
| #23 Musta cut close to home with that one, Nimble Spemble. |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 09:13 |
| #22 Douche-bago! |
| Posted by: bigjim-ky 2008-08-11 09:11 |
| #21 Si' puedo! |
| Posted by: bigjim-ky 2008-08-11 09:10 |
| #20 almost English speaking. Hey Nibmble Swimble They do as they can. I doubt you can be even as good as them in a foreign language |
| Posted by: Sine_Dubio 2008-08-11 09:06 |
| #19 Mitch H wrote "the Russians have taken to labeling all of their occupation troops "peacekeepers". Wish we'd thought of it." You have forgottent that you had invented it actially - your "peacekeepers" are in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
| Posted by: Sine_Dubio 2008-08-11 09:04 |
| #18 Remember who made the first shot: GEORGIA! They've been equiping their troops for the last 4 years and planned this horrific attack on Ossetian civilians. As a result of their bombing Tskhinvali for 2 days, the whole city has been destroyed and more than 2,000 civilians have died. |
| Posted by: Sine_Dubio 2008-08-11 09:01 |
| #17 almost English speaking. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2008-08-11 08:39 |
| #16 Any bets the Russians are paying English-speaking officers to spam boards talking about their latest conquest? |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2008-08-11 08:34 |
| #15 Which seems to be the reason that the Russians have taken to labeling all of their occupation troops "peacekeepers". Wish we'd thought of it. |
| Posted by: Mitch H. 2008-08-11 08:18 |
| #14 According to international law and rules of engagement, attacking a peacemakers is considered a war crime. So al Qaeda is/are war criminal(s)? 'Freedom fighters' everywhere are 'war criminals'? Either that, or peacemakers, depending on which side you're on. |
| Posted by: Bobby 2008-08-11 06:12 |
| #13 Who wants a cold war? Putin, who is consolidating his autocratic control in Russia. |
| Posted by: lotp 2008-08-11 06:11 |
| #12 "I seem to recall when Wesley Clark wanted to attack Russian forces, after they seized a Kosovo Province airport during the Clinton idiocy." One of the main reasons I want him for Obama's VP. There's a man that actually perceived the situation properly. "Georgian sovereignty over Russian populated areas within an entity created by Stalin (a Georgian) is hardly a sacred cause." Ossetians and Abkhazians are suddenly supposed to be ethnic Russians? At least the Nazis claimed control over *Germanic* people in Sudetenland -- Russians don't even the common ethnicity to justify their actions: only mere passports that they handed out freely a year or two back. In this respect their actions are even worse than the Sudetenland situation. "Who wants a Cold War?" As opposed to the Hot one currently taking place? As opposed to a new World War for the occupation of Europe, which will be what'll happen if we allow Russia free rein (same as what happened when Germany was not opposed in Sudetenland)? I'll take the Cold one, thank you. |
| Posted by: .Aris 2008-08-11 06:08 |
| #11 [A.ris has been pooplisted.] |
| Posted by: A.ris 2008-08-11 06:08 |
| #10 Remember those nominally stark photos of captive, starving Muslims in Bosnia? They were faked. The best known shot was taken outside a clinic, where persons were free to come and go. I seem to recall when Wesley Clark wanted to attack Russian forces, after they seized a Kosovo Province airport during the Clinton idiocy. We don't need another conflict in support of some trivial cause. Georgian sovereignty over Russian populated areas within an entity created by Stalin (a Georgian) is hardly a sacred cause. I smell Clinton-1999 rhetoric all over again. Who wants a Cold War? |
| Posted by: McZoid 2008-08-11 05:56 |
| #9 People, official Mass-Media real misinform you. #8 right. |
| Posted by: RusJunge 2008-08-11 05:21 |
| #8 We are honored by your attempt to sway our opinion, we really are. To think you would log on here just to tell us we are being lied to. How did we ever deserve such a service? |
| Posted by: badanov 2008-08-11 04:52 |
| #7 Dear people, Mass-Media deceiving you. Georgia has started bombardment of their own territories and broke their promise. There're 2000 dead civilians in South Ossetia already. Mass-Media hide the whole fact. Scenes that contain military equipment also belong to Georgia. |
| Posted by: Hupearong Lumplump6672 2008-08-11 04:42 |
| #6 Do you belive people to be idiots enough to trust that the fire in the 3rd floor apartment of an undestroyed building is a result of aerial bombardment? The photos media shows are fine art but not documentary. |
| Posted by: Captain Cresh7140 2008-08-11 04:30 |
| #5 http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o |
| Posted by: Crusomp Peacock1640 2008-08-11 04:03 |
| #4 http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o |
| Posted by: Crusomp Peacock1640 2008-08-11 04:02 |
| #3 Our Press (controlled by UPI) would never show these pictures, nevermind making a mention thereof. Thanks Mike. #1 http://war.georgia.su/ just see it Posted by Mike 2008-08-11 03:3 |
| Posted by: Max David 2008-08-11 03:57 |
| #2 Nice copy and paste job - I must say the US and the UK must have the best spin doctors while we ourselves have done the same and worse. May I suggest you read Die Welle (German paper) that gives a much more honest and deeper understanding. I could just see how we would react if Mexico rallied its troops at our border and bombed San Diego to reclaim property stolen centuries ago. Or how would we react if China or Russia setup bases in Latin America ? I hate spin doctors all for the sake of oil and the greedy dollar. I thought honesty was Christian value. |
| Posted by: Max David 2008-08-11 03:43 |
| #1 http://war.georgia.su/ just see it |
| Posted by: Mike 2008-08-11 03:31 |