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| Israel-Palestine-Jordan |
| IDF rabbi: We should exempt religious troops from events where women sing |
| 2008-07-24 |
| The Israel Defense Forces' head of Halacha (Jewish Law) has said that religious soldiers should be exempt from participating in army ceremonies that include appearances by female singers. Rabbi Maj. Menachem Perle's stated this after a female singer from the army band sang a number of songs at a rehearsal for the final ceremony for a course of soldiers from the Kfir infantry brigade, which includes the religious Nahal Haredi battalion and a number of platoons of students from Jewish seminaries. One of the soldiers present at the ceremony later posted a question to the military rabbi via the Web site Yeshiva, asking if it was permissible by Jewish law to remain in the audience during the appearance of the female singer. He also pointed out that a number of religious soldiers had left the hall when the female singer came up to the stage during the ceremony. Perle said the prohibition on listening to female singers was based on the halachic ruling that kol haisha arve (the voice of a woman is shameful, or sexual). "According to the letter of the law there is no way to permit religious soldiers to listen to a female singer, even in a military ceremony," Rabbi Maj. Perle said. |
| Posted by:Fred |
| #17 you're welcome and in case you were wondering, the Song of Deborah in the b of Judges would have been heard by men and would have been the voice of a single woman however, apparently, prophets and judges get to do things on a one-time basis that would be illegal otherwise; e.g., Elijah making offerings at Mt Tabor (when its supposed to be at the Temple), Pinhas killing Zimri extra-judicially, etc. |
| Posted by: mhw 2008-07-24 17:18 |
| #16 @#15 mhw ... Thanks for that. |
| Posted by: ExtremeModerate 2008-07-24 17:07 |
| #15 Extreme Moderate Most interpreters assume that Miriam and the women sang without men; that Miriam would sing a verse and the other women would sing a verse and that this was going on during the same time that Moses was leading the menfolk in his song. Interestingly, because the Talmud statement is in the singular, even the Haredi are more lenient when it comes to a group of women singing (the voices of many women at once might not be indecent). Personally, I have for many years admired Miriam for this because her version of the song is short and sweet. That's what I told visitors to our seder earlier this year when I display our "Miriam's cup" next to the Elijah's cup. |
| Posted by: mhw 2008-07-24 16:04 |
| #14 Can you grasp the difference between a liberal, integrated democratic society and the ridged and segregated religion? A liberal (in the old sence) society respects personal choice as long as it doesn't harm others. The soldier in question should no more be forced to listen to a female singer than I should be forced to attend Sabath prayer. Or you should be forced [fill in]. |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2008-07-24 15:27 |
| #13 So, the can't listen to a woman singing, but, could they listen to say boy george? |
| Posted by: anonymous5089 2008-07-24 15:04 |
| #12 g(r)omgoru/mhw ... What's their take on Miriam? |
| Posted by: ExtremeModerate 2008-07-24 13:51 |
| #11 Fanatics, they can all go straight to hell, no matter the religion. There is a big difference between excusing yourself and trying to prevent others from doing what they want. |
| Posted by: bigjim-ky 2008-07-24 11:09 |
| #10 The babylonia talmud contains a statement (Berakhot 24a) that a woman's voice is indecent. The context of this remark is within a discussion about reciting the proclamation of faith (a.k.a. the Shema). The haredi world has run with this and in some places women do not even join in the communal grace after meals out loud (but I think they do say 'amen' after the benedictions within it - because that's not singing). The modern orthodox world generally considers the provision to be a "well in the society that prevailed in the talmudic era, it was reasonable to supress the singing of women for the pleasure of men; however, that's not so now". |
| Posted by: mhw 2008-07-24 10:48 |
| #9 One EXCEPTION please. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2008-07-24 10:18 |
| #8 Hand out blinkers and ear plugs. |
| Posted by: Bright Pebbles 2008-07-24 09:47 |
| #7 Can you grasp the difference? Can you grasp the difference between a liberal, integrated democratic society and the ridged and segregated religion? Or are you too busy banging your head on the floor? Western nations and democratic and free societies bring all people together. All men (see humans) are created equal. The fact that during ceremonies that celebrate this integration, people still can't get over their primitive beliefs. They want to teach that watching women sing is bad, fine. But during a celebration of a unit comprised of ALL of Israel, it is intolerable and should be scorned. Can you grasp that difference, g(r)omgoru? Can you? |
| Posted by: DarthVader 2008-07-24 09:38 |
| #6 That's right Darth. The soldier in question didn't demand that the female singer be removed. He didn't demand that she'll be dressed "decently", just requested to be excused. Can you grasp the difference? |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2008-07-24 08:40 |
| #5 A solution would be to exempt religious types from women. This would solve the problem of religious partys influencing Israel's political life. |
| Posted by: JFM 2008-07-24 08:30 |
| #4 Oh come on! You guys aren't repressive muzzies. Grow some thicker skin and enjoy the show. You ain't going to hell. What's next? Fucking burkahs? Asshats, all of them. |
| Posted by: DarthVader 2008-07-24 07:55 |
| #3 Wrong TW. You confuse ultra-orthodox (who are anti-Zionist: "Jews should wait for Messiah, not do things for themselves") with zionist-orthodox who are overrepresented in the combat units of the military. |
| Posted by: g(r)omgoru 2008-07-24 07:43 |
| #2 Yes they do, 3dc. Although I believe the stoning is of those cars driving through their neighborhood on the Sabbath, but I could be wrong. They are idiots, and that Israel indulges such behaviour is idiotic as well. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2008-07-24 07:17 |
| #1 Don't a lot of these hyper-religious types also use their religion to get out of both work and fighting? Also, stone cars of other Jews as they have some sort of problem with cars? |
| Posted by: 3dc 2008-07-24 01:09 |