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| Terrorist Mastermind Now A Christian? |
| 2007-10-12 |
| Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, claims he converted from Islam to Christianity, Scott Pelley reports in a story that brings viewers inside the secretive Supermax prison where he is being held. Pelley also reports that some 900 forced feedings were performed on other al Qaeda terrorists who went on repeated hunger strikes to protest conditions at the Colorado top-security federal prison. Pelley's report will be broadcast Sunday, Oct. 14, at 7:30 p.m. ET, 7 p.m. PT. The prison in Florence, Colo., which the government calls ADX-Florence for Administrative Maximum, houses the nation's toughest and most infamous criminals, such as Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph, would-be 9/11 terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui, Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols and shoe bomber Richard Reid. 60 Minutes obtained exclusive footage of prisoners inside the facility, where special-case prisoners are allowed only a phone call a month, spend 23 hours a day in their 12-by-7 cells and can get mail only from people approved by the prison. Robert Hood, its warden from 2002 to 2005, says Yousef was a special case. He never left his cell because he did not want to face the indignity of a strip search required for recreation. "He has that Charlie Manson look," Hood says of Yousef. "He has some charisma about him. He's in [prison] uniform, but you know that there's a powerful person you're looking at," Hood says. Told that Yousef has begun leaving his cell and now claims to be a Christian, Hood tells Pelley, "He's playing a game with someone. If he's doing that, he's doing it for the reaction ... He is the real deal." As a Muslim, Yousef prayed almost every hour, Hood says. Other al Qaeda terrorists protested the special conditions with hunger strikes that Hood had to end with force feedings. "I probably .. authorized, conducted 350, maybe 400 involuntary feedings," Hood says. "You could have one person, three meals a day for ... two months." Pelley also speaks with a corrections officer inside ADX-Florence, who tells him what she heard on 9/11 after terrorist prisoners saw the destruction on their televisions. "We had a lot of them jump up and down ... scream and yell and clap and they were very excited," says Barbara Batulis, who heads the prison's staff union. She also characterizes the Muslim extremists as needy. "They want more than what they have coming," she says. "They want extra toilet paper ... writing paper ... extra envelopes and if you can't give them, they want to see a supervisor right then and there." Batulis would rather work among the other prisoners because she is female. "It's very obvious, [Muslim extremists] just look at you with sheer disdain." Hate can turn into threats. "A terrorist inmate threatened to kill my family, because I was doing my job," Batulis tells Pelley. Batulis says the prison needs more officers. "... We are very short staffed. I firmly believe that staff lives are at stake," she says. |
| Posted by:tipper |
| #33 He read some bible and really admired that guy named Judas. |
| Posted by: Evils Elvis 2007-10-12 15:50 |
| #32 Certainly the first, but the second is an assumption on your part. That's an argument from silence, Aris, in which you are trying to extract a positive fact from a void. I am concluding that the void exists because nothing was actually said. Is it just me or does Florence Supermax come across like the Roach Motel™ of Federal penitentiaries? They check in ... That's not a bug, zenster, but a design feature. Old Patriot has the correct short-version of the answer. Protestants and Catholics differ on the details, but both agree that a changed lifestyle is evidence of true conversion. Sometimes, like Chuck Colson, it can be as simple as saying "Yeah, I'll plead guilty." Nothing like that coming from Yousef. |
| Posted by: ptah 2007-10-12 15:27 |
| #31 No long hours of studying the bible? No removal of the Koran from the cell? Christians can pray 5 times a day too, when they get up, when they eat, and when they go to bed: the praying every hour is over-the-top showboating. There should be a manifest deference for authority: Batulis should be seeing a difference in Yousef, and the article doesn't mention it. An excellent summary of why I remain skeptical. I might relent slightly if Yousef memorized the entire Bible. One would think that a marked change in demeanor should accompany this "conversion". Any lingering traces of the usual Master Race™ behavior and I wouldn't bet a plug nickel on the sincerity of his putative "conversion". The real test will be if he submits to strip searches in his zeal for a chance of witnessing to his once co-religionist inmates. Any conversations would have to be closely monitored for further conspiracy but at the very least it might get him shanked. That may sound cold but this maggot set the template for the 9-11 atrocity and I have ZERO sympathy for him. It's also 60 Minutes: if it was a REAL conversion, it would be a feather in the cap of Christianity, and they won't have THAT. Kapow! Is it just me or does Florence Supermax come across like the Roach Motel™ of Federal penitentiaries? They check in ... |
| Posted by: Zenster 2007-10-12 14:43 |
| #30 Well said, Old Patriot. Repentence means to change one's mind, to turn around and go the other direction. Whether that's happened here or not remains to be seen. |
| Posted by: mcsegeek1 2007-10-12 14:34 |
| #29 Unfortunately, we're up against the same argument most homosexuals use about the Church - that their "sins" are forgiven, so they can do what they wish. True redemtion is described best by the words of Jesus to Mary Magdalene - "neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more. Redemtion is forgiveness, but it also requires the redeemed to "sin no more". You cannot keep doing sinful acts and be "redeemed" - you're just pretending. The only way to truly see if Yousef has really changed is to watch his behavior. No change, no redemtion, no turning away from sin. Right now, his actions are more those of a pretender. Let him continue to rot in prison. |
| Posted by: Old Patriot 2007-10-12 14:20 |
| #28 Sure, mcsegeek, but my post wasnt entirely redundant. The implication (ellipsis...) was that this was a departure from his previous creed. Something which I am sure that you are no doubt aware of, but also something that dialectical materialism obfuscates somewhat. Aris is a 'lumper', rather than a 'splitter' (like the majority of 'burghers). He thinks it's all the same & we say it's different. Problem with arguing with 'lumpers' is that on a superficial level, things often do look the same. Even at a deeper level, parallels exist, scriptures can be twisted to fit preconceived notions. Arguing difference is difficult at the best of times, but more so in this Kali Yuga of moral equivalence. |
| Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-10-12 12:34 |
| #27 #12: "Aris, your own sins right here at Rantburg are forgiven. Go forth, and sin no more!" Or at least just go forth. |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2007-10-12 10:51 |
| #26 If he became a Christian, he would have to renounce terrorism... Correct. And thus my comments in post #13. |
| Posted by: mcsegeek1 2007-10-12 10:04 |
| #25 Aris, you're missing a bit point there. If he became a Christian, he would have to renounce terrorism... |
| Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar 2007-10-12 10:01 |
| #24 I don't care if Yousef goes to Christian hell or Muslim hell or Druid hell as long as he gets there and gets there as soon as possible. |
| Posted by: tu3031 2007-10-12 09:48 |
| #23 While I agree that Aris can sometimes take a thread off track, through deliberate provocation or by some other means, I don't think he has done so in this case. |
| Posted by: mcsegeek1 2007-10-12 09:41 |
| #22 Frank, three years ago I had made some theological comments on my "site" after seeing "The Passion", perhaps you'll find those threads convenient - http://katsaris.livejournal.com/10817.html http://katsaris.livejournal.com/12005.html |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2007-10-12 09:32 |
| #21 have a theological debate on your own site, your own dime, thread-jacker. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2007-10-12 09:30 |
| #20 grrr..... |
| Posted by: mcsegeek1 2007-10-12 09:27 |
| #19 Thanks you Rob, that's so nice and kind. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2007-10-12 09:27 |
| #18 I agree, ptah, but to a non-Christian, the concept of God's forgiveness through the substitutionary sacrife of Christ can be a difficult concept to grasp. Try doing it a bit more gently. |
| Posted by: mcsegeek1 2007-10-12 09:26 |
| #17 "while on the Cross, extended forgiveness to the repentant thief, but NOT to the unrepentant one." Certainly the first, but the second is an assumption on your part. Interested in opening a theological debate? I always considered that his "Forgive them FatherÂ… For they know not what they do." seems to indicate that repentance isn't always required for forgiveness -- ignorance is also deemed mitigating circumstances, and certainly the Lord's Prayer requires that human beings atleast (though perhaps not God) forgive *all* those who have sinned against them. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2007-10-12 09:26 |
| #16 Anyone know why the shit-stirrer came back? |
| Posted by: Rob Crawford 2007-10-12 09:25 |
| #15 Well now, I am TRULY thankful to for the serendipitous ethical and moral ignorance of Aris: while going over the, oh, 12 different arguments that I could deploy to refute him, I realized that Jesus Christ, while on the Cross, extended forgiveness to the repentant thief, but NOT to the unrepentant one. I shall have to mull it over in light of the cheap salvation/forgiveness bulloffal being spread abroad by those currying favor and good reports from the unreprentant, the powerful, the connected, the insiders, of whom Jimmy Carter is chief. In the meantime, note that one of the non-negotiables of Christianity is holding out the possiblity of true repentance, while simultaneously asserting the extreme difficulty of doing so without divine intervention, thus the general skepticism that pervades even my post, and which Aris obviously can't see. True repentance implies an invasion of the material by the spiritual, which the secular materialist finds offensive and threatening. Even the existance of the ability of people to change doubtless upsets the socialists/communists/tyrannists as well, since they NEED stasis in order to maximize control. Pity the poor little mind who needs his enemy to just "stay where you are, so I can hit you!" Christianity's history is full of criminals, repenant and unrepentant. Emphasis is placed on the wide-ranging consequences of the unrepentant criminals, to distract attention to the great accomplishments and blessings attained by the repentant ones, starting with the Apostle Paul. Exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from a religion with inherent, and real, power. |
| Posted by: ptah 2007-10-12 09:15 |
| #14 sinse, Actually converting back to Islam (from Christianity subsequent to being Moslem) would probably not be harem in most sharia courts. Ramzi could credibly claim that he had done the conversion to Christianity as an act of deceit in the overall jihad against the infidel. He could also claim that because, according to Sharia, infants are born moslem and some are led astray to other religions but are welcomed back to Islam, he should be as well since confinement in an infidel jail is similar to the 'being led astray' after being born a moslem. This might also be credible to most sharia courts. |
| Posted by: mhw 2007-10-12 09:10 |
| #13 In one sense Aris, you are of course correct. If a man commits murder at a young age, and never commits it again, and lives to be 90, then even at 90, it's technically correct to call him a "murderer". He has still committed the act. Bit in another sense, I can only look at this (if it's true) as a positive. That's because terrorism's core motivation is the evil in a man's heart. That's the source of all human atrocity. Once a man's motives change, his actions change. Does that mean we as a society mitigate the punishment for such a one? Absolutely not. God is in the sin forgiving business. Governments and penal systems are not in the forgiveness business, but in the enforcement and punishment business. One of my favorite proverbs describes the roles perfectly: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings is to search out a matter." --Proverbs 25:2 |
| Posted by: mcsegeek1 2007-10-12 09:09 |
| #12 . A person who has repented his sins is better than a person who has not done so. It's an improvement to be welcomed, not disdained. Aris, your own sins right here at Rantburg are forgiven. Go forth, and sin no more! |
| Posted by: Mike Sylwester 2007-10-12 08:50 |
| #11 If a Muslim terrorist converts to Christianity, that would merely make him a Christian terrorist. Weepy redemption stories don't move me one bit. Ones that are dependent on the religious bias of the listeners even less so. This reminds me of when a small group of Satanist rapists/murderers here in Greece all claimed to "have turned to God" in their prisons. Even if those conversions had been sincere, that would make them simply Christian rapists/murderers in my eyes. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2007-10-12 08:41 |
| #10 I thought Florence was like this side of a mushroom farm. Why are they allowing CBS in there? Especially this asshole. I don't care if Yousef's supposedly a Christian or that they're force feeding them. I just wanna know when they're dead. |
| Posted by: tu3031 2007-10-12 08:30 |
| #9 I call bullshit. |
| Posted by: DarthVader 2007-10-12 07:55 |
| #8 . Robert Hood, its warden from 2002 to 2005, says Yousef was a special case. He never left his cell because he did not want to face the indignity of a strip search required for recreation. I understand this to mean that Yousef has refused to leave his little cell for recreation to the present day. The only thing that happened in 2005 is that Hood ceased being the warden. Yousef must be extremely ashamed of his naked body. I assume he is tiny down there. It is a good thing he will die of natural causes in a prison hospital bed, because if he had died a martyr, then he would have had to endure the disappointment, dissatisfaction ridicule of 72 virgins for eternity. |
| Posted by: Mike Sylwester 2007-10-12 07:45 |
| #7 well i think his fellow muslims won't like him too much anymore. since once you convert away from islam you can't convert back so i guess that makes him an infidel now. maybe he will get shanked |
| Posted by: sinse 2007-10-12 07:40 |
| #6 I love the way you think, Mike. I'm experienced in evaluating jailhouse conversions, but Zenster's point is pertinent: a conversion depends not only on the person, but on the cultural background that leads up to it. Intense honesty and a persistent search for the truth are essential keys in a true conversion, and taqiyya and kitman WILL play a part. Personally, I am skeptical, since experience shows that fanatical Muslims tend to be come fanatical Christians, but the manifestations are different: No long hours of studying the bible? No removal of the Koran from the cell? Christians can pray 5 times a day too, when they get up, when they eat, and when they go to bed: the praying every hour is over-the-top showboating. There should be a manifest deference for authority: Batulis should be seeing a difference in Yousef, and the article doesn't mention it. Always trust the gut instinct of the cell-floor pounding guard, especially one who has had a religious upbringing, even if he or she doesn't follow it. The article is short on essential details, of course, but they're clueless when it comes to real spirituality, so that's not surprising: they wouldn't know what was important and what was for show. It's also 60 Minutes: if it was a REAL conversion, it would be a feather in the cap of Christianity, and they won't have THAT. |
| Posted by: ptah 2007-10-12 07:19 |
| #5 He may well be playing a game--but we can play too. The psyops department (we have one,don't we?) can start spreading stories about Yousef's conversion experience, quote him talking about the joy of personally knowing his Lord and Savior and denouncing the Koran as idolatry. (The quotes could even be authentic, depending on what he says.) Double bonus points for a video recording that can be uploaded to a jihadi website. "Sheik Ramzi Yousef has turned his back on Islam!" |
| Posted by: Mike 2007-10-12 06:43 |
| #4 Pelley has been a Donk and barely-hidden anti-American tool for years. |
| Posted by: Frank G 2007-10-12 06:06 |
| #3 Print cartoon of Mo-ham-mad on it. Or shahada. |
| Posted by: twobyfour 2007-10-12 05:59 |
| #2 They want extra toilet paper I thought toilet paper was haram? |
| Posted by: gromgoru 2007-10-12 05:50 |
| #1 "He has that Charlie Manson look," Hood says of Yousef. "He has some charisma about him. He's in [prison] uniform, but you know that there's a powerful person you're looking at," Knowing that taqiyya and kitman exist, exactly how much less credibility should this be given as compared to the usual jailhouse conversion? Hood says. Told that Yousef has begun leaving his cell and now claims to be a Christian, Hood tells Pelley, "He's playing a game with someone. If he's doing that, he's doing it for the reaction ... He is the real deal." As a Muslim, Yousef prayed almost every hour, Hood says. Praying every hour certainly would mask the need to pray five times a day. Pelley also speaks with a corrections officer inside ADX-Florence, who tells him what she heard on 9/11 after terrorist prisoners saw the destruction on their televisions. "We had a lot of them jump up and down ... scream and yell and clap and they were very excited," Isn't there some sort of specially prescribed #8 truncheon beatdown that can be dispensed for such conduct? She also characterizes the Muslim extremists as needy. "They want more than what they have coming," she says. "They want extra toilet paper ... writing paper ... extra envelopes and if you can't give them, they want to see a supervisor right then and there." Muslim Entitlement™. Is there nothing more endearing than the Master Race™ doing what they do best? |
| Posted by: Zenster 2007-10-12 03:09 |