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| Christians must 'let go' some beliefs for sake of peace, theologian says |
| 2006-11-29 |
| To live peacefully with Muslims and Jews, Christians must put aside the notion that their faith requires the creation of a Christian kingdom on Earth, a Lipscomb University theologian told an interfaith gathering at the university. "We are not going to get very far in our relationship with Jews or Muslims if we do not let go of this idea," Lipscomb professor Lee Camp (AKA Dhimmi Lee Camp) said at Tuesday's conference. The unusual gathering of several dozen clergy and lay people was devoted to resolving religious conflict in Nashville and around the world. "We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?" Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict. After five years of rising gas prices, disturbing privacy issues that followed the Sept. 11 attacks and the fear of terrorism, it became apparent that everyday life in Nashville is directly affected by religious conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, conference organizers said. "We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management. Panelists representing different faiths presented their own views on how to begin to bridge the religious divide. For Kahled Sakalla, a spokesman for the Islamic Center of Nashville, some of the answers lie in better education about Islam in the non-Muslim world. Allah, the God Muslims worship, is the same God Christians and Jews worship, and the Quran recounts the same biblical stories of Mary and Jesus, he said. "Yes, we have differences, but it's important to focus on commonalities," said Sakalla, one of four panelists representing different faiths who addressed the Lipscomb conference. Mark Schiftan, rabbi of the Temple in Belle Meade, said he also believes people of faith must begin to look for common ground. "If all of us believe we were created in God's image, then we have to believe that everyone else is also created in God's image," Schiftan said. Charles McGowan, president of the Christian group Operation Andrew said: "It's important to us in Nashville that we be proactive. Religious leaders must engage one another if we are going to experience in this city the peace and calm we all desire." But the issues that have divided the world's religions for millennia are so deep and fundamental — ranging from the question of whether the land of Israel rightfully belongs to the Jews and whether there is one way to salvation — that tackling them will require both dialogue with other faiths and a more introspective look at one's own beliefs, panelists said. Some liberal theologians have suggested that different faiths are all variations on one another and that beliefs are all basically the same, a position with which Camp deeply disagrees. Instead, he believes, Christians must not back away from their beliefs but further examine them and their own history. First, Christians must examine their "sins of omission," he said — such as not taking the time to learn about other religions. Then they must look at their "sins of commission." "We have such short historical (memory) spans as white Christians," he said. "There is a history of anti-Semitism, the violence and bloodshed of the crusades and cultural imperialism. We have to deal with the reality of what Christians have done, which in some cases has been to kill people." Camp described himself as a conservative Christian but conceded his opinions may be viewed as "radical" by other evangelical Christians. Christians must shed the idea that they need to promulgate a worldwide Christianity, he said. "If I hold to a model of Jesus … what I've committed to in my baptism is loving my enemy," Lee said. "I'm committed to not killing you, but to serving and honoring you. It's an exclusive commitment to the way of Christ, not to the exclusive authority of Christ." Sakalla said there may never be reconciliation on the fundamental theological divisions. "Every religion has different teachings," he said. "For Muslims, it's: Do you believe in one God and that Muhammad" is his prophet? "I don't think we can teach individuals that the way you go to heaven in other religions is OK. You have to teach differences." • |
| Posted by:tipper |
| #15 Zenster, keep in mind the reference says "created". Absolute, original equality is where we start - the law kicks in immediately afterwards. |
| Posted by: Ulinenter Creting5912 2006-11-29 23:44 |
| #14 Just pathetic. People like this should go become human shields so that they can be put out of their misery. |
| Posted by: RWV 2006-11-29 23:42 |
| #13 This guy makes no sense, for all the reasons expressed in the comments. I'm not Catholic, but B16 is on to something with his contrast of reason and unreason separating the faiths, and Churchill's comments about the strong arms of science ring true as well. Confused, addled professors are not new under the sun. |
| Posted by: Ulinenter Creting5912 2006-11-29 23:41 |
| #12 There is a defiant core of radical clergy who insist that Jesus was not divine. While I freely acknowledge that Jesus did indeed exist, I have my own personal doubts that he was of divine origin. Guess what? This in no way precludes Christ's ability to have channeled the words of whatever God may exist. Much of what Jesus had to say has, fairly well, eternal application, much to His credit. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed This is common ground that religious adherents of various sorts, agnostics, and atheists (who can just ignore the Creator part of the quote) can conceivably agree on. No need to recommend that agnostics and atheists "ignore the creator part of the quote", Anguper Hupomosing9418. Even the most fierce athiest must surely (and don't call me Shirley), acknowledge that some sort of Creative process is at work, even if it is just (quite the understatement), Mother Nature weaving her incredible tapestry of organic life. My only amendment to the above quote is this: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal in the eyes of the law Otherwise, I remain in eternal awe at the prescience and foresight of America's founding fathers. Their combined insight and anticipation of much that would follow in world history is simply breathtaking. |
| Posted by: Zenster 2006-11-29 23:27 |
| #11 Beautifully said, Anguper Hupomosing9418. :-) A useful thread all around, guys! Professor Camp is clearly several different kinds of idiot, and ought not be allowed out without a minder. |
| Posted by: trailing wife 2006-11-29 22:46 |
| #10 There will always be people who will give up Christ for the World. As for me, my biggest problem at this moment is that I can't get the World off my back to serve Christ better. |
| Posted by: Ptah 2006-11-29 22:39 |
| #9 --- What a crock of crap. The idea that Christendom was some kind of earthly kingdom died a very hard death in the religious wars after 1517. A big chunk of the population of what is now Germany died with it. --- The Quran DENIES the Biblical stories of Mary and Jesus. They are included more as a tool to recruit naive Christians into Islam. Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one! —Qur’an 19:88 This completely contradicts John 3:16. I'm committed to not killing you, but to serving and honoring you.Christianity is not a suicide pact. Maybe some Christians are called to be absolute pacifists and to renounce the right to self-defense, but most are not. When someone really wants to either kill or conquer you, how "far in our relationship" should we go? This is part of a much wider process of self-education by millions of people as they look into what truly matters for them, where they stand, and what ground they will defend. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governedThis is common ground that religious adherents of various sorts, agnostics, and atheists (who can just ignore the Creator part of the quote) can conceivably agree on. Muslims who want Sharia, Jihad, and death for apostasy and blasphemy can't agree with that until they give up those beliefs, which are key to traditional Islam. They can 'let go' of those beliefs for all I care, it's not my problem unless they try to force those values on me. |
| Posted by: Anguper Hupomosing9418 2006-11-29 21:57 |
| #8 . . . Christians must put aside the notion that their faith requires the creation of a Christian kingdom on Earth . . . 'Scuse me, Perfesser, but who taught you theology? Ever heard of "My kingdom is not of this world"? "Be in the world, but not of it?" |
| Posted by: Mike 2006-11-29 21:56 |
| #7 Amen, OS. And, that's spoken as a Protestant. Much like the Methodists who want to divest any money from Israel to the new-age, "all ways lead to Heaven" type teachings, God's Word has been misinterpreted widely. Ex-lib nails it on the soldiering part. Note that Jesus came into contact with numerous soldiers (Roman), yet he NEVER condemned them for the act of soldiering, just for their "personal" sins. In fact, he didn't condemn them at all, but gave them hope and told them "go and sin no more." This ALL goes back to a family squabble in the Old Testament. I found this out by riding with 2 Muslims who tried this "Our god, Allah, is the same as your God" crap. Nope! They believe that Ishmael was the chosen seed (instead of Isaac), that Ishmael was the one whom Abraham took up on the mountain to sacrifice, and, thus believe they (descendants of Ishmael, who was a bastard child born of Hagar, Abraham's wife's maidservant) are the "rightful heirs" of all of God's promises. The Jews and Christians both believe that Isaac and his seed were the chosen of God, and thus, are more tightly wound together in terms of theology. If God is a perfect God, He would not tell you to convert others at the tip of the sword, much less sanction lying to get ahead. Jesus came to fulfill the law, and yet, Muslims believe in an overabundance of laws (down to which shoe to tie first, which hand to wipe with, etc.). HUGE differences we'll never get over theologically. |
| Posted by: BA 2006-11-29 21:41 |
| #6 Sounds like another wennie from the Jesus Seminar. Frankly, I don't aspire to be trusted by the Slammers. I suspect the Mohammed saw an opportunity like L. Ron Hubbard did: "If I wanted to make some real money, I'd start a religion." |
| Posted by: SR-71 2006-11-29 21:34 |
| #5 Weakness of protestantism - morons like this get a megaphone with no accountability. Calling Christianity into "account", but nto calling Islam on their violence. |
| Posted by: OldSpook 2006-11-29 21:29 |
| #4 Lee said: "I'm committed to not killing you STOP TAPE! ( can't hear over all the Islamo-laughing in the background), "but to serving and honoring you. STOP TAPE! Well, the Muzzies oughta love that bit of dhimmi idiocy--'they're gonna serve us and LIKE IT! . . . "It's an exclusive commitment to the way of Christ, not to the exclusive authority of Christ." STOP TAPE! Why be committed to the "way" of Christ, if He has no authority? Soldiering is an entirely different matter than one's personal relationships (in reference to loving one's enemies), and this is of course, taken out of context for the sake of deconstructing Christianity so that Islam can gain the upper hand (oops--boot). Also: "put aside the notion that their faith requires the creation of a Christian kingdom on Earth . . . " Huh? Jesus said His kingdom is NOT of this world. No one can "create" a "Christian kingdom" on Earth, unless he's somehow clandestinely referring to the US. The Islamofacists just LOVE idiot theologians, journalists, and politicians, and especially love it when the aforementioned become unofficial official spokespeople in support of Islam or Islamic political aspirations. |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2006-11-29 21:17 |
| #3 There is a defiant core of radical clergy who insist that Jesus was not divine. They are often liberation theologists who also believe that Christianity is the same as socialism. |
| Posted by: Anonymoose 2006-11-29 21:13 |
| #2 This guy is a Professor? Accepting that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who sacrified himself for us is the very core of Christianity. And no, the God of Mohammand is not the same as the God of Christians and Jews - no matter what the Koran says. If you look Allah and, at least the christian God are almost the exact opposite. Jesus taught love and forgiveness grace and truth. Allan teaches hatred, unforgivness, and falsehood. Jesus said 'Love your enemy' Allah says 'Kill your enenmy - strike off their head!', and to lie. |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2006-11-29 20:53 |
| #1 "We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment Â… is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?" Can anyone translate that for me? Particularly the trust bit. I have a feeling Camp would go apeshit if I were to say "how can Christians trust Muslims, when they say Jesus was not the Son of God?" |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2006-11-29 20:38 |