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| Down Under |
| John Howard disgusted at converts ordeal |
| 2006-03-26 |
| PRIME Minister John Howard says he is pressuring Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai to intervene in the possible execution of an Afghani citizen who has converted to Christianity. Mr Howard has today said he found it deeply concerning Australian troops were fighting to assist a country that would take such action. "I am filled with disgust about the possibility that somebody could be executed because of their religion," he said. "It breaks every rule of tolerance. "I will not drop off this issue, I will not just be content to write a letter and leave it at that. "I will continue to press very, very strongly. I do feel very deeply about this, particularly because there are Australian soldiers risking their lives to fight the Taliban and we're not fighting the Taliban to allow something like this to happen." Mr Howard said he had written to President Karzai about the matter. He told reporters he would raise the matter again today when he met with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Australia, the United States and NATO allies Germany and Italy, all of whom have troops in Afghanistan, have expressed concern at the trial of 41-year-old Abdul Rahman. Rahman is believed to be the first Christian convert accused in Afghanistan under the strict Islamic Sharia law for refusing to return to Islam. The case is being seen as a test of democracy and freedom for Afghanistan, where religion retains a tight grip on society four years after the toppling of the Islamic fundamentalist Taliban regime. |
| Posted by:Oztrailan |
| #29 Yeah, and it sounds like you talk like one of the bigots you claim you're against. |
| Posted by: Bizarre 2006-03-26 17:57 |
| #28 It's all good! |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2006-03-26 18:32 |
| #27 Go easy, 49, I think Bizarre's suffering from burger-flipper elbow... and parent's-couch stiff neck syndrome... and Grape Kool Aid purple tongue. |
| Posted by: Angack Hupaique3704 2006-03-26 18:30 |
| #26 AS, your right on that one. Means to me we will be in this fight for a while. This is extreemly disapointing because I would hate to see my sons fight in a war "my" generation did not finish. As for being a bigot there Bizarre, grow up. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2006-03-26 18:21 |
| #25 hey bizarre, please don't be calling 49 pan a bigot. Someone who has fought in this war and is worried about it continuing on for generations, has a point that needs to be heard. Comparing our history with what's going on with this backwards culture is right on. |
| Posted by: Jan 2006-03-26 18:19 |
| #24 AS, perhaps not ALL, but a very large number of them may die before this is over. It is no longer technically difficult to do if one is not concerned about bein indiscriminant. I believe we'll get there, but not for years. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-03-26 18:15 |
| #23 49 Pan... Sad to say, but your "or" will NEVER happen. Regards, a.s. |
| Posted by: Asymmetrical Triangulation 2006-03-26 18:04 |
| #22 That was sarcasm too, right, Common Sense? |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-03-26 18:04 |
#21
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| Posted by: Bizarre 2006-03-26 17:57 |
| #20 Guess not. Irony is not my best suit, my bad. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2006-03-26 17:54 |
| #19 No doubt you didn't understand sarcasm, 49 Pan. |
| Posted by: Bizarre 2006-03-26 17:48 |
| #18 Boy did I screw that up. Please excuse my spelling on this one. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2006-03-26 17:46 |
| #17 No doubt you are a "instant gratification" generation guy there Bizarre. Lts look at American history and itegration of the blacks into the ican mainstream. 30 years ago we were just getting past the bigots of hate. It has taken us 30 years to get to where we are, some say 100, but none the less the bigots and hate still exists. Take a culture that makes our bigots look like amatures and any reasonable person will understand it will take generations to turn the hate and ignorance around. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see this over right now, I have fought in this war and I see my kids fighting in it which is frightening, but it aint gonna be over any time soon. We are going to have to fight it out for the next 50 years and bring them into the 21st century or kill them all. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2006-03-26 17:45 |
| #16 Uh, I heard Afghanistan had been 'liberated'... I thought it had become a 'democracy' and part of the 'new' Middle East. My oversight, no doubt. |
| Posted by: Bizarre 2006-03-26 17:26 |
| #15 Again, I say that half-measures and gradualism can only be done when both sides are acting from a position of reasonableness. Otherwise, you are allowing axioms of crap like murdering people to be one side of the argument. See how stupid that looks when the west tries to compromise over things like beheading cartoonists? "Well, what if you agree to only behead them halfway? That might be acceptable to our side." Who the hell thinks it is reasonable to "compromise" between the 21st Century and the 11th Century by agreeing to act like we're living in the 16th Century? Hey, it's compromise, right? No, you demand that the 11th Century people behave themselves like anybody else should who lives in the 21st Century. Barbarism is not a reasonable point from which to debate, and barbarians have no right to expect civilized people to either stoop to their level or tolerate them continuing to do so on their own. Afghanistan has a 21th Century-type government, at least theoretically. Their people have voted in a democratic manner, again a 21st Century thing to do. Certainly if *some* of them wish to keep the unimportant trappings of the olden days, they should be at liberty to do so. But *not* when those primitive traditions threaten the well-being of others. *No* beheadings for *anything* is reasonable. Most of the civilized world is against execution of any kind for any reason, much less for violating some bullshit religious taboo. If the Afghans want to be a modern nation, they have to act it. Afghans are not simple children, either. Many women in Afghanistan know better, and are terrified that some ignorant rural Imam is going to torture or kill them because they have a Bachelor's degree. All that has to be done is to admit the truth: if you want to remain a primitive bastard, you are a Taliban, and on their side, and we will kill you. Otherwise, you have to act like a civilized person. |
| Posted by: Anonymoose 2006-03-26 15:55 |
| #14 Robert, if they don't kill the guy, where's the crime? I'm sick of them too. But they are like children. It's going to take a lot of patient, repetitive, boring, unrewarded work to get them to grow up. Look at the shit we have to put up with from the Europeans. But what are the alternatives? Let them win or genocide. I'll take the work. |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-03-26 14:35 |
#13 Well how else do you think we're going to stop the practice? We stopped this one. We'll stop the next one. Pretty soon they'll figure out they aren't going to do this any more. Sort of the way the Indians stopped practicing suttee. Using your own example -- treat this as murder. Treat it as a crime against humanity. Punish the people and societies that make a practice of it. Honestly, I'm sick of the barbarians. If we tolerate their barbarism, if we even wink at it like we have here, we're surrendering our own principles. Yeah, we'll probably lose some "moderate" allies -- but how fucking moderate is someone who wants to murder converts? |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2006-03-26 14:30 |
| #12 No leader can legitimately excuse themselves from knowing that execution for abandonment of Islam, is integral to that vulgar cult. USC has been posting the Bukhari Hadith - source of the extermination doctrine - since 1998. It might seem crude to force feed Western leaders objective information on the Arab murder cult, but we can't afford to be led by ignoramuses. Who knows why Muslim men are permitted 4 wives? The military-historical context of the permission, is: Mohammad's Murder squad was killing so many husbands and fathers - mostly as prisoners of war - that there were surplus unmarried women. Captive women were deemed war booty. There is even a Hadith that permits rape of sex booty, and forbids contraception of rape-semen. Anyone who wants to export freedom of conscience to a Muslim country, might as well try selling sand to Saudi Arabia. If they knew the real cause of their primitivism and stagnation, there would be a cleric hanging from every lamppost in those countries. |
| Posted by: Listen to Dogs 2006-03-26 13:39 |
| #11 Hammner on their heads until the scales fall from their eyes. |
| Posted by: Churchills Parrot 2006-03-26 12:23 |
| #10 Agreed, NS. This is not an issue that will be forced once and for all. It's an issue of gradual change. As the Afghans see political stability and economic improvement, they will care more about their kids getting good jobs and getting into schools than about killing apostates. But force it now as a matter of principle, when they have little besides their religion, and Karzai loses, we lose, the Taliban win. |
| Posted by: lotp 2006-03-26 12:23 |
| #9 How is "we'll ignore it, for now" a "good step"? Well how else do you think we're going to stop the practice? We stopped this one. We'll stop the next one. Pretty soon they'll figure out they aren't going to do this any more. Sort of the way the Indians stopped practicing suttee. What's your alternative? Should they take a trip to Damascus so they can be blinded by the light? |
| Posted by: Nimble Spemble 2006-03-26 12:13 |
| #8 I think the issue should be pushed. First of all, it is a win-win issue for the Talibs; it forces the debate to be on their arguments. So the only way to argue it is with intolerance. That is, not allowing a grey area or half-measures, based on an enemy advantage. Give them no advantage. Force through a harsh ban on any religious discrimination. Put them on the deep defensive. Of course, they might see it as an opportunity, *but* it is an opportunity that they *must* take immediately, no matter their current strength or preparation. So if the government is prepared, it could round up all sorts of stinkers, agents, provacateurs, and traitors all at once. The trick is for the Afghan government to be prepared in all sorts of ways, not just militarily. They should have a propaganda campaign ready to go, have a bunch of moderate mullahs ready to preach, *and* not only be able to break up any demonstration in a hurry, but to round up any instigators. Most importantly, they should turn hatred and oppression against other faiths into a disastrous, embarassing, and humiliating defeat for the Talibs and anyone else who supports it. They should just cringe and change the subject when it is mentioned. |
| Posted by: Anonymoose 2006-03-26 12:02 |
| #7 This is a good step. How is "we'll ignore it, for now" a "good step"? |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2006-03-26 12:02 |
| #6 Good to hear. Some of the old ways will take years, generations, to overcome. The objective is to turn the culture, and that take generations. This is a good step. Thanks 4 the update Mous. |
| Posted by: 49 Pan 2006-03-26 09:43 |
| #5 BUT the case is being kept open. In other words, escape now and never come back, but we won't change our laws and if you do return you're dead meat. |
| Posted by: lotp 2006-03-26 09:36 |
| #4 Just turned on the computer, netscape reported all charges have been dropped for "lack of evidence." |
| Posted by: anonymous2u 2006-03-26 09:22 |
| #3 Look how many Taiban's lifes could of been saved if they had only thought to enforce a law to hang a Christian. We would of left years ago. |
| Posted by: plainslow 2006-03-26 09:13 |
| #2 Prime Minister Howard, one of a handful of world leaders with a set. |
| Posted by: Perfessor 2006-03-26 08:56 |
| #1 As well he should. |
| Posted by: gromgoru 2006-03-26 08:28 |