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Europe
Vatican gets angry
2006-02-24
After backing calls by Muslims for respect for their religion in the Mohammad cartoons row, the Vatican is now urging Islamic countries to reciprocate by showing more tolerance toward their Christian minorities.
"Ummm... Nope. We couldn't do that! We got laws against that sort of thing!"
Roman Catholic leaders at first said Muslims were right to be outraged when Western newspapers reprinted Danish caricatures of the Prophet, including one with a bomb in his turban. After criticizing both the cartoons and the violent protests in Muslim countries that followed, the Vatican this week linked the issue to its long-standing concern that the rights of other faiths are limited, sometimes severely, in Muslim countries. Vatican prelates have been concerned by recent killings of two Catholic priests in Turkey and Nigeria. Turkish media linked the death there to the cartoons row. At least 146 Christians and Muslims have died in five days of religious riots in Nigeria. "If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us," Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's Secretary of State (prime minister), told journalists in Rome.
I'd say they don't have the right to destroy us whether they're offended or not. Tits and tats are usually the same size and shape, so they could maybe feel free to offend us back. It just takes a lot more to offend Westerners than it does to offend Muslims, probably because we've have so much experience offending each other.
"We must always stress our demand for reciprocity in political contacts with authorities in Islamic countries and, even more, in cultural contacts," Foreign Minister Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo told the daily Corriere della Sera. Reciprocity -- allowing Christian minorities the same rights as Muslims generally have in Western countries, such as building houses of worship or practicing religion freely -- is at the heart of Vatican diplomacy toward Muslim states. Vatican diplomats argue that limits on Christians in some Islamic countries are far harsher than restrictions in the West that Muslims decry, such as France's ban on headscarves in state schools. Saudi Arabia bans all public expression of any non-Muslim religion and sometimes arrests Christians even for worshipping privately. Pakistan allows churches to operate but its Islamic laws effectively deprive Christians of many rights. Both countries are often criticized at the United Nations Human Rights Commission for violating religious freedoms.
The natural extension of "reciprocity" would, of course, be the right to prosyletize. That's forbidden in virtually all Moose limb countries.
Pope Benedict signaled his concern on Monday when he told the new Moroccan ambassador to the Vatican that peace can only be assured by "respect for the religious convictions and practices of others, in a reciprocal way in all societies." Morocco is tolerant of other religions, but like all Muslim countries frowns on conversion from Islam to another faith.
Wouldn't that tighten the old turbans? On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the thought of Arab Baptists...
Christians make up only a tiny fraction of the population in most Muslim countries. War and political pressure in recent decades have forced many to emigrate from Middle Eastern communities dating back to just after the time of Jesus. "Enough now with this turning the other cheek! It's our duty to protect ourselves," Monsignor Velasio De Paolis, secretary of the Vatican's supreme court, thundered in the daily La Stampa. "The West has had relations with the Arab countries for half a century, mostly for oil, and has not been able to get the slightest concession on human rights," he said.
Posted by:plainslow

#23  When the last pope kissed the koran I almost schit my pants. Enough is enough and I wish this pope nothing but good luck. Heh, maybe we will get lucky and he'll call for another crusade!?

What I don't get is how anyone can expect a terrorist worshipper to act civil. Muhamhead never did and the porkoran is pretty clear about the conversion or death thing.
Posted by: Ebbique Thromoth8192   2006-02-24 19:04  

#22  Well, Merlin crossed a few lines..
Posted by: 3dc   2006-02-24 18:17  

#21  Yes, I rather imagine they would spit them out .... ;-)
Posted by: lotp   2006-02-24 17:33  

#20  I grew up in St. Druids on the Main Line.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-02-24 17:32  

#19  lopt: #14, there are a few Episcopalian priests in PA who also do Druid ceremonies

Well, what they think are Druid ceremonies.

I can imagine the old archdruids saying, "You are neither warm nor cold..."
Posted by: Abdominal Snowman   2006-02-24 17:17  

#18  I'd give it more credence than a "strongly worded UN declaration".

The Pope may not have a bunch of "divisions", but ol' JPII managed to do a number on communism.
Posted by: Desert Blondie   2006-02-24 17:02  

#17  Pass the Pork Ribs Abu.

Fire and Brimstone is a big turn off to most Protestants these days. More are Evangelical these days. I wonder if that is the case in Islam too?
Posted by: Sock Puppet O' Doom   2006-02-24 16:14  

#16  #14, there are a few Episcopalian priests in PA who also do Druid ceremonies ....

sigh.
Posted by: lotp   2006-02-24 15:39  

#15  Ok, now I've got an image of snake-handling Pushtuns with their brains falling out, while the preacher thunders about fire and brimstone from the pulpit, and the choir sings in the background. Thank goodness I've already eaten lunch, and it isn't quite time for tea!
Posted by: trailing wife   2006-02-24 15:35  

#14  empty ritual centers for people without the imagination to become wiccans.
Posted by: Abdominal Snowman   2006-02-24 15:34  

#13  lol, Fred! Now, I'm gonna have a mental image of a snake-handling Pashtun, lol.

You're right on the Protestant thing though. I'd maybe reclassify Baptists into those hated "Evangelical" categories. I actually think those churches you mentioned who are getting into touchy-feely political arenas are NO CHURCHES at all, but just religious country clubs who are falling for today's multi-culti, "diversity" driven, "tolerant", open-minded to the point of their brains falling out crowds.
Posted by: BA   2006-02-24 15:32  

#12  I'm Baptist and we have some FINE BBQ (pork no less) dinners on the grounds! A lot better than the other options, lol!

I actually see this as a HUGE movement in the Catholic church (from touchy-feely "turn the other cheek" stuff to actually (albeit, only verbally) fighting back). Those of us on the Protestant side of the house have always been fighters. Heck, in my church, we PRAISE our troops, encourage them to attend in uniform, and around July 4th have a service dedicated to the military (with the respective songs sung for each of the armed services, including Coast Guard). Even ask for all veterans to stand (who, obviously, mostly are out of uniform) and I'm always shocked how many vets (even of the WWII age) we have in our congregation. These statements are a few days old and COULD (I don't know for sure) have pushed the Nigerian Christians into actually (physically) fighting back against the Muslims there. Much like Radio Free Europe, or Bush's SoTU address to the Iranian PEOPLE, this serves to encourage a specific people (in this case, Catholics) to rise up and have "permission" to fight back!


I was referring to the idea of some of the fire and brimstone Baptist preachers I've run into, and more of them that I've heard of. Qazi, Fazl, and Sami are fire and brimstone preachers, too. My point was that it may actually be easier to change the theology than it will be to change the temperament. The Christians of Alexandria and Antioch were noted for their penchant for rioting before the Profit (PTUI) was a gleam in his daddy's eye. Imagine a post-Muslim Middle Eastern Protestantism, where everybody's free to issue his own fatwah.

Nor would I wax too rhapsodical over Protestantism's sterling record in defending the faith. Episcopalians, Unitarians, United Methodists, and the National Council of Churches Nobody Goes To are all Protestant, despite their occasional emulation of St. Peter in the Garden.

It would be amusing to watch a church full of Pashtuns passing the snakes, though.
Posted by: Fred   2006-02-24 15:15  

#11  I think this will have as much effect as a sternly written UN letter of repremand.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam

(sniff) Do not underestimate that a sternly worded demarche can be devestating to the ego!
Posted by: Inspector Clueso   2006-02-24 14:14  

#10  Vatican and Islam
Posted by: I. B. DePrimate   2006-02-24 13:53  

#9  I wonder if we've reached a tipping point on Islamism.

I say, yes. Modern communication (e.g., newspaper cartoons) and mobility have exponentially increased the points of contact that Islam has with the outside world. The global population is beginning to notice how so much of that contact generates nothing but friction. All of this is augmented by the frequency and way that Islam itself voluntarily instigates this friction and does so in a spectacularly offensive and atrocious manner.

The tipping point is being reached. Once the world perceives that the cost of trying to co-exist with Islam far exceeds the cost of exterminating Islam, the scales will tip and Islam will become an object of study for historians and a few brave archaeologists in lead lined suits scholars.
Posted by: Zenster   2006-02-24 12:10  

#8  "Enough now with this turning the other cheek! It's our duty to protect ourselves"

It's enough to Piss off the Pope!
Posted by: DepotGuy   2006-02-24 12:01  

#7  Wouldn't that tighten the old turbans? On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the thought of Arab Baptists...

I don't know, plains...I'm Baptist and we have some FINE BBQ (pork no less) dinners on the grounds! A lot better than the other options, lol!

I actually see this as a HUGE movement in the Catholic church (from touchy-feely "turn the other cheek" stuff to actually (albeit, only verbally) fighting back). Those of us on the Protestant side of the house have always been fighters. Heck, in my church, we PRAISE our troops, encourage them to attend in uniform, and around July 4th have a service dedicated to the military (with the respective songs sung for each of the armed services, including Coast Guard). Even ask for all veterans to stand (who, obviously, mostly are out of uniform) and I'm always shocked how many vets (even of the WWII age) we have in our congregation. These statements are a few days old and COULD (I don't know for sure) have pushed the Nigerian Christians into actually (physically) fighting back against the Muslims there. Much like Radio Free Europe, or Bush's SoTU address to the Iranian PEOPLE, this serves to encourage a specific people (in this case, Catholics) to rise up and have "permission" to fight back!
Posted by: BA   2006-02-24 11:00  

#6  Christians make up only a tiny fraction of the population in most Muslim countries.

Now. Even 50 years ago Christians were a substantial proportion of the population.
Posted by: gromgoru   2006-02-24 10:58  

#5  I think this will have as much effect as a sternly written UN letter of repremand.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam   2006-02-24 10:42  

#4  Vatican prelates have been concerned by recent killings of two Catholic priests in Turkey and Nigeria.

Concerned? I'd be a little more than concerned if I were them.
Posted by: Ulinelet Spaing9954   2006-02-24 10:24  

#3  This, Nigeria, Denmark. I wonder if we've reached a tipping point on Islamism. I've been fed up for decades. It's good to see others feel the same.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-02-24 10:17  

#2  They have more spine then most of the West. At least they are being true to thier beliefs.
Posted by: plainslow   2006-02-24 10:08  

#1  'Bout' damn time.
Posted by: raptor   2006-02-24 09:00  

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