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Iraq
Obama calls for Iraqi government to include more minorities
2006-01-08
Sen. Barack Obama on Saturday said the United States will not be successful in Iraq unless the political landscape better represents the country's minorities. Obama, the nation's only black senator, met with U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and Iraqi President Jalal Talabani on Saturday. He said before his two-day trip to Iraq that he wanted to ask U.S. commanders for a realistic time frame on bringing troops home.

"What I'm fully convinced of is if we don't see signs of political progress 
 over a relatively short time frame let's say six months or so we can pour money and troops in here till the cows come home, but we won't be successful," said Obama, D-Ill., who said he opposed the war before it began.

Talabani predicted Saturday that a new government could be formed within weeks and said the country's main political groups had agreed in principle on a national unity coalition that would include the country's majority Shiites and minority Kurds and Sunni Arabs. Obama said he was confident a new government could be formed but was skeptical of Talabani's time frame.

"My suspicion is it's going to take a little longer than that," he said. "Creating not just a majority government but a government that actually incorporates in a meaningful way Sunni interests may take a little longer."

Obama, who last year called for a phased troop withdrawal from Iraq, said he is "constantly impressed and proud of the outstanding work" of American troops, but that he still questions the overall U.S. policy in Iraq. "In my mind, at least, there's a difference between the discrete successes on the ground and whether the overarching policy will ultimately be successful," he said. "The fundamental policies that led to us being here were flawed and not well thought through, and the odds of our long-term success is hard to assess at this point." He said, however, that he understood Iraq was too fragile for an immediate withdrawal. Obama, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, plans to travel to Jordan on Sunday. He is scheduled to arrive in Israel on Monday and will spend the rest of the week there and in the Palestinian territories.
Can't wait to hear read his Gaza dispatches.
Posted by:Dan Darling

#26  pledged Spring 79 here
Posted by: Frank G   2006-01-08 21:56  

#25  Yeah, yeah.... I helped paint the Beta pillars red and green (Not at Christmas!)and shot tennis balls out of beer cans at the SAE house across the street.

But the best part was slingshot water balloons at 60 mph over 250 yards over by the Phi Sig Sig house. Knocked a kid down. He was REAL slow getting up!

But that was a long time ago Frank!
Posted by: Bobby   2006-01-08 21:14  

#24  LOL - Sleep And Eats - 110 members and I was one of only two engineering majors
Posted by: Frank G   2006-01-08 20:28  

#23  SAE? That explains everything. Aris is a Beta.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-01-08 20:19  

#22  San Diego State - Sigma Alpha Epsilon here - we had our own bar. That's why nobody asks me to google for them? :-)
Posted by: Frank G   2006-01-08 20:14  

#21  "Yes, perhaps a well-educated Greek man should know... Which is why I fully extend my thanks to Darell."
You're welcome, Aris. I'm a Tau Beta Pi man, to be specific.
Posted by: Darrell   2006-01-08 20:03  

#20  2,000 of the 80,000 Greek Jews survived WWII.

That is wrong. An article I referenced said, "Some 50,000 Jews, 95 percent of Salonika's Jews, eventually perished in Nazi death camps.

But the Greek state's claim may leave Greece's 1,950 living Holocaust survivors with less than a 25 percent share, with the remaining 25 percent going to the man who says he knows where the treasure can be found."

The current Greek Jewish population is about 5,000.

Posted by: ed   2006-01-08 19:00  

#19  It's sarcasm, Aris.

Fully perceived.

So, I asked a simple question.

Didn't you get as full a response as I had available at the time?

As opposed to responding by doing a little research (i.e. yahoo.com or google.com) on it and responding, you chastise me as being 'off the subject'.

I responded with as full a response as I had available at the time. Are you seriously telling me that I should have googled up *your* question, something that you could have done so equally easy yourself?

And yes, though I obliged you with responding, I also chastised you for being so wildly off subject. That's because it smacked of trollery for me -- a thing which your latest comment now confirms.

It seems that being occupied for 4 years by the Nazis, just mighta, shoulda, coulda gotten into the Greek curriculum, no?

Do you now wish to discuss the Greek education system with me? Do you have any idea what was or wasn't in the "Greek curricula" (plural), in each of the three different highschool systems that existed when I was going in Highschool, and each of the twenty-something different directions that a student could opt to take in my school? Do you know how much the curriculum has changed since that time? Even I don't know the answer to that one.

But yes, I'm sure there's a lot of things that should be in the Greek school curriculum and aren't, as I indicated in my previous post.

And there are even more things that are in the Greek curriculum and shouldn't be.

If not, should a well-educated Greek man might know about it?

Yes, perhaps a well-educated Greek man should know about the exact details of the fate of the Jewish community during the Nazi occupation in Greece. Which is why I fully extend my thanks to Darell.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2006-01-08 18:16  

#18  Since the Sunnis are under the delusion they are the majority, just what percentage would Barack deem acceptable for them?

2,000 of the 80,000 Greek Jews survived WWII.
Posted by: ed   2006-01-08 17:34  

#17  Aris,

Just so you know, the French authorities and people generally assisted the Nazis in locating, deporting and murdering French Jews.

On the other hand, the Danish authorities and people actively resisted the Nazis and did all they could to protect Danish Jews. Most European people were somewhere in between.

So, I asked a simple question.

As opposed to responding by doing a little research (i.e. yahoo.com or google.com) on it and responding, you chastise me as being 'off the subject'.

It seems that being occupied for 4 years by the Nazis, just mighta, shoulda, coulda gotten into the Greek curriculum, no? If not, should a well-educated Greek man might know about it?
Posted by: Brett   2006-01-08 16:51  

#16  Amazing these comments here. Sheer amazing. I honestly gape in disbelief.

It's sarcasm, Aris.

Despite his position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Obama's foreign policy experience is meagre at best; this trip is more an effort to boost his standing within the Democrat Party than to burnish his credentials.

We get the '"constantly impressed and proud of the outstanding work" of American troops'. Rote phrasing. His voting record doesn't exactly reflect that.

I find it interesting that he gives a six-month timeframe. Would that he apply the same criteria to domestic policies.

Lastly, for him and any Democrat politician, classing the Sunni as a 'minority' isn't a matter of demographics. It's establishing them as victims. There are other groups in Iraq more deserving of the status, but they seem to have been ignored.
Posted by: Pappy   2006-01-08 16:37  

#15  Re Jews in Greece, WWII:

"The Germans begin the deportations in March of 1943, sending the Jewish inhabitants of Thessaloniki to the Auschwitz death camp on a long journey packed in box-cars like sardines. By the summer of 1943 the Jews of the German and Bulgarian zones are gone and only those in the Italian zone remain. Jewish property in Thessaloniki is distributed to 'caretakers' who are chosen by special committee. Instead of giving apartments and businesses to the many refugees, they are given to friends and relatives of committee members, and collaborators who for the most part tear the premises apart looking for hidden gold and jewels. The Italians are less willing to round-up and deport the Jews but once Italy surrenders in September of 1943, the Nazis begin to administer those areas too, hunting down Jews... and Italians too.

Archbishop DomaskinosIn September of 1943 when the Germans turn their attention to the Jews of Athens, their propaganda is not as effective with the Athenians. The Jewish community has been integrated into Athenian life and finds support in a variety of places. Politicians appeal to the German authorities to stop the persecution. Archbishop Damaskinos orders his priests to ask their congregations to help the Jews. Many risk their lives hiding them in their apartments and homes, despite threat of imprisonment. Even the Greek police ignore instructions to turn over Jews to the Germans. When Jewish community leaders appeal to Prime Minister Constantine Rallis he tries to alleviate their fears by saying that the Jews of Thessaloniki had been guilty of subversive activities and that this is the reason they were deported. At the same time, Elias Barzilai, the Grand Rabbi of the city, is summoned to the Dept of Jewish Affairs and told to submit a list of names and addresses of members of the Jewish community. Instead he destroys the community records thus saving the lives of thousands of Athenian Jews. He advises the Jews of Athens to flee or go into hiding. A few days later, the Rabbi himself is spirited out of the city by EAM-ELAS fighters and joins the resistance. EAM/ELAS helps hundreds of Jews escape and survive. Many of them stay with the resistance as fighters and/or interpreters. Of the Jewish population of Greece, over 67,000, are deported to Auschwitz, 43,000 from Thessaloniki alone. Only a handful survive. The few who do return to Thessaloniki find more disappointment. The city has changed beyond recognition. The Jewish cemetery to the east has been bulldozed as have the Jewish neighborhoods. The synagogues had been dynamited by the Germans. Jewish businesses had been given to Greeks as had their homes and few would be returned."
http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/worldwarII.htm
Posted by: Darrell   2006-01-08 15:50  

#14  Brett, you would have done better to ask me this in a thread related to the Holocaust, rather than here. Or use my email, ofcourse.

Short answer is that I don't know the difference between France's and Denmark's treatment of their native Jewish populations, so I have no way of knowing which situation Greece best approximates. I've very recently (three or four days ago) heard a fellow soldier comment that the Greeks betrayed the Jews. From other people I've heard claims that the Greeks tried to save the Jews. Myself, I haven't studied the period of the Nazi occupation at length.

History books at school tended to gloss over/omit most embarrassing or inconvenient to the establishment details of Greek history, beginning from the issue of Ancient Greek homosexuality, continuing to Byzantium's opposition to Hellenism, and proceeding all the way to the oppression/persecution of Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus a few decades ago.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2006-01-08 15:26  

#13  WTF! Why, pray tell, is the VERY busy President of Iraq having to waste his time meeting with one frigging U.S. senator, no matter what committee, color, or stripe. Would George Bush have to carve out some time if George Galloway decided to drop by?
Posted by: Darrell   2006-01-08 15:06  

#12  Obama also called for South Africa to incorporate the white minority into its government.

/yeah, right....
Posted by: Omans Omoluling5982   2006-01-08 14:05  

#11  Aris, I have a question to which you might know the answer.

During WWII, may occupied countries pro-actively worked with the Nazis to identify and deport Jews. One nation which did was France, while Denmark did not. What did Grecians do?
Posted by: Brett   2006-01-08 13:46  

#10  I think Obama needs to be asked if it where better that the US be governed by Sharia. Watch him duck and weave that one.
Posted by: TomAnon   2006-01-08 13:44  

#9  rather than respond to Aris' self-righteous finger wagging, I have hit Fred's tip jar. That way, I'll think twice before I waste his bandwidth as I did yesterday.
Posted by: 2b   2006-01-08 13:44  

#8  Amazing these comments here. Sheer amazing. I honestly gape in disbelief.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2006-01-08 13:23  

#7  no esquimeaux?
Posted by: Frank G   2006-01-08 12:34  

#6  I'll have to agree with him here. What the Iraqi government needs is more African American and Hispanic representatives. An Iraqi government should look like America.
Posted by: Zhang Fei   2006-01-08 12:05  

#5  Sen. Barack Obama on Saturday said the United States will not be successful in Iraq unless the political landscape better represents the country's minorities.

You tell em Obama, all they need is a few more doses of snakeoil quotas and multicultural elixers to finish nation building.

Posted by: RD   2006-01-08 11:42  

#4  Damn right, where are the Assirians and the Jews?
Posted by: gromgoru   2006-01-08 06:33  

#3  Oh, krapp. Forgot again that the squad computer doesn't have my info saved.

WC4122 was me.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2006-01-08 01:24  

#2  These clowns just can't STFU until they completely destroy any hope for Iraq, can they?
Obama, the nation's only black senator
So, based on what he's telling the Iraqis they have to do, he's saying the only reason he got his political position through affirmative action, not merit?

I'm surprised he's willing to call attention to that.
Posted by: Whaising Chuse4122   2006-01-08 01:21  

#1  perhaps he'd like to propose a minority party of Jooooos? Whoops! That's not like what he was thinking, him being Democrat and all....
Posted by: Frank G   2006-01-08 00:46  

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