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Home Front: WoT
U.S. Soldiers Question Use of More Armor
2006-01-08
BEIJI, Iraq (AP) - U.S. soldiers in the field were not all supportive of a Pentagon study that found improved body armor saves lives, with some troops arguing Saturday that more armor would hinder combat effectiveness.

The unreleased study examined 93 fatal wounds to Marines from the start of the Iraq war in March 2003 through June 2005. It concluded 74 of them were bullet or shrapnel wounds to shoulders or torso areas unprotected by traditional ceramic armor plating.

Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division's 3rd Brigade ``Rakkasans'' are required to wear an array of protective clothing they refer to as their ``happy gear,'' ranging from Kevlar drapes over their shoulders and sides, to knee pads and fire-resistant uniforms.

But many soldiers say they feel encumbered by the weight and restricted by fabric that does not move as they do. They frequently joke as they strap on their equipment before a patrol, and express relief when they return and peel it off.

Second Lt. Josh Suthoff, 23, of Jefferson City, Mo., said he already sacrifices enough movement when he wears the equipment. More armor would only increase his chances of getting killed, he said. ``You can slap body armor on all you want, but it's not going to help anything. When it's your time, it's your time,'' said Suthoff, a platoon leader in the brigade's 1st Squadron, 33rd Cavalry Regiment. ``I'd go out with less body armor if I could.''

The study and their remarks highlight the difficulty faced by the Army and Marine Corps in providing the best level of body armor protection in a war against an insurgency whose tactics are constantly changing. Both the Army and the Marines have weighed the expected payoff in additional safety from extra armor against the measurable loss of combat effectiveness from too much armor.

According to a summary of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner's study obtained Friday evening by The Associated Press, the 93 Marines who died from a primary lethal injury of the torso were among 401 Marines who died from combat injuries in Iraq between the start of the war and June 2005.

A military advocacy group, Soldiers for Truth, posted an article about the study on its Web site this week. On Friday evening, The New York Times reported in its online edition that the study for the first time shows the cost in lives lost from inadequate armor.

Autopsy reports and photographic records were analyzed to help the military determine possible body armor redesign. Of 39 fatal torso wounds in which the bullet or shrapnel entered the Marine's body outside of the ceramic armor plate protecting the chest and back, 31 were close to the plate's edge, according to the study, which was conducted last summer.

Some soldiers felt unhappy that ceramic plates to protect their sides and shoulders were available, but not offered, when they deployed for Iraq in September. ``If it's going to protect a soldier or save his life, they definitely should have been afforded the opportunity to wear it,'' said Staff Sgt. Shaun Benoit, 26, of Conneaut, Ohio. ``I want to know where there was a break in communication.''

Others questioned the effectiveness of additional body armor. ``It's the Army's responsibility to get soldiers the armor they need. But that doesn't mean those deaths could have been prevented,'' said Spc. Robert Reid, 21, of Atlanta.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., who was in Iraq on Saturday, said military leaders told him that body armor has improved since the initial invasion in 2003 and that the military hoped to gradually transition to the improved armor.

The debate between protection versus mobility has dominated military doctrine since the Middle Ages, when knights wrapped themselves in metal suits for battle, said Capt. Jamey Turner, 35, of Baton Rouge, La., a commander in the 1st Squadron, 33rd Cavalry Regiment.

The issue comes up daily on the battlefield in Iraq, and soldiers need to realize there is no such thing as 100 percent protection, he said. ``You've got to sacrifice some protection for mobility,'' he added. ``If you cover your entire body in ceramic plates, you're just not going to be able to move.''

Others in the regiment said the issue of protecting soldiers with more body armor is of greater concern at home than among soldiers in Iraq, who have seen firsthand how life and death hang on a sliver of luck when an improvised explosive device hits a Humvee. ``These guys over here are husbands, sons and daughters. It's understandable people at home would want all the protection in the world for us. But realistically, it just don't work,'' said Sgt. Paul Hare, 40, of Tucumcari, N.M.
Posted by:Steve White

#17  Would love to read about 1,000 pieces of written testimony from vets who were wearing this modern armor when they were shot. An occasional anecdote isn't that useful.
Posted by: Snuns Thromp1484   2006-01-08 23:29  

#16  Not to second guess a troop in the field but the parts that armor protects are pretty valuable. Nothing looks cool in combat except getting out of the fight with all parts attached! I would dare say his wife has a different perspective on what looks cool!
Posted by: 49 Pan   2006-01-08 14:20  

#15  Jason Van Steenwyck at iraqnow.blogspot.com had some thoughts about the armor in the field. He actually declined to wear the neck piece 'cos it interfered with his ability to sight and shoot his weapon. And he chose not to wear the crotch armor 'cos...it looked stupid.
Posted by: Seafarious   2006-01-08 14:08  

#14  Phil, I have not been shot while wearing armor, or in a newly armored vehicle. However, tag my email and I will connect you with some close friends that have and are believers.
Posted by: 49 Pan   2006-01-08 13:22  

#13  good luck & success, Phil
Posted by: Frank G   2006-01-08 12:15  

#12  49 Pan: While the contest is for armor for light vehicles, and I'm just working on flat rigid panels for same (it's all I'll have the equipment to deal with for the current concept, which I don't really want to discuss openly), I would like to solicit suggestions from anyone who's actually been there...
Posted by: Phil   2006-01-08 12:04  

#11  I have never served in combat but I did get to wear just the Helmet and Flak vest in training and that shit was heavy. I am sure we are capable of building a suit al-la-Halo but it would have to weigh a ton and I doubt that anyone could move effectively in combat (aside from the game). What is NOT pointed out is that given the attacks, the armor the troops are wearing seems to lessen the casualties in Iraq.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge   2006-01-08 12:00  

#10  I too hope that we're able to discover a lighter more movable armor to protect all of our soldiers in the best way.
I do question outlining the details for all to see. The more information that the enemy gets the better they can devise ways to penetrate it.
Posted by: Jan   2006-01-08 11:36  

#9  Phil’s right and they also don’t talk about what failed in the quality testing. I’m sure even the failed ceramic armor outperformed the previous armor. We used to slip steel plates into our flight gear, that was heavy, not very effective and uncomfortable. Then it went to Kevlar, bulky and heavy. Now the new ceramic stuff is lighter and better. We test the body armor as part of life cycle management and it has held up better than expected, even with the rush to fielding. Good luck Phil, we need lighter and tougher armor.
Posted by: 49 Pan   2006-01-08 11:20  

#8  There was also an item in the discussion about this over at Defensetech concerning quality control in the existing armor. _Some_ of the ceramic inserts that were made for the Stryker vehicle failed their quality-control tests and had to be redone. Also, there was a big rush to put this stuff into service.

Notice the wording in the second paragraph, "...unprotected by traditional ceramic armor plating."

This stuff has only been in production since '99 or so. It's not "traditional."

I _am_ interested in designing better armor, I'm going to try to put together an entry in the next Grand Challenge, which is for light vehicle armor. But this report, and the second-rate political reportage behind it, doesn't tell me anything useful.
Posted by: Phil   2006-01-08 11:02  

#7  The examples of these soldiers comments are more a product of soldiers hardened in combat and feeling "When its your time" attitude, as well as just plain old bitching. Later in life when they get home or after they are saved by a shot to the chest they will reevaluate this attitude. Commander's must continue to balance combat effectiveness with force protection and force them to wear it. The stuff is hot, weighs a lot and uncomfortable, but it's a lot better than the stuff we wore in the 80's. Hearing soldiers bitch about it means the commanders are doing their job, keep it up. Soon the discomfort of war will be nothing but a war story when they get home.
Posted by: 49 Pan   2006-01-08 10:52  

#6  Reactive body armor...might reduce bar fights.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-01-08 09:56  

#5  Well, RJ, the intertia has to go somewhere. Spreading it over more of the body is the best that can be done, unless we want to comtemplate Reactive body armor.
Posted by: Jackal   2006-01-08 09:55  

#4  Seems like a lot of emotion in the discussion and not much analysis. One of a commanders objectives should be to bring as many troops home as possible regardless of the inevitable and enjoyable bitching.

What are the facts? No reporting on how the Rakkasans have done with the full suit versus soldiers otherwise similarly deployed. That would be interesting as opposed to he said, she said. Typical MSM
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2006-01-08 09:55  

#3  Ever play Croquette?
Hitting a hard surface with another hard surface causes the inertia to transmit freely, as in the soft/hard armor will give you a knockdown punch and transmit all the inertia into your body.

I can see some advantage, you don't have a hole in you, but pulverized soft tissues will kill all the same.

Needs more thought.
Posted by: Redneck Jim   2006-01-08 09:37  

#2  A new type of armor is in the testing stages that is normally soft,but when hit with rounds or shrapnel becomes hard in milliseconds.
Posted by: raptor   2006-01-08 07:08  

#1  Like a rich armor worn in heat of day.
That scalds with safety.
Posted by: gromgoru   2006-01-08 06:37  

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