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Britain
Banned bullets 'used in tube shooting'
2005-11-17
THE Brazilian man mistaken for a suicide bomber and shot dead by British police was killed with a type of bullet banned in warfare under international law, a newspaper reported today.
That is correct, banned in "warfare", not banned for shooting perps
The firing of hollow-point ammunition into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes is believed to be the first use of the bullets by British police, London's The Daily Telegraph said, without naming its sources. The 27-year-old electrician was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder on an underground railway train at Stockwell station in south London on July 22. The shooting came the day after a failed attempt to repeat the July 7 blasts which killed 56 people, the bombers included, on three underground trains and a bus.

The newspaper said modern hollow point bullets are descendants of the expanding "dum dum" ammunition created by the British in an arsenal of the same name near Calcutta in India at the end of the 19th century and outlawed under the Hague Declaration of 1899. However, there is no legal ban on British police use of such ammunition, it said.

The bullets, which expand and splinter on impact, were available to officers taking part in Operation Kratos, the national police drive against suspected suicide bombers which has been described as a "shoot to kill" policy, it said. Their issue was sanctioned after research suggested that they were effective close-quarters ammunition for use against someone about to trigger a suicide bomb, it said.

It is believed the decision was influenced by the tactics used by air marshals on passenger jets - where such bullets are designed to splinter in the body and not burst the fuselage, it said. They have been assessed as posing less risk to people around the suicide bomber than conventional bullets but the effect on victims is devastating, it said.
Well, that's the whole point of shooting someone, isn't it?
Alex Pereira, a cousin of De Menezes who lives in Britain, reacted with outrage to the report that "dum dum" bullets had been used. "I am shocked and angry," he said.
"How can the police in the UK use bullets that the army is not allowed to use?
Because they arn't army, that's the whole point
"The police need to be open about what they are doing and if they act illegally they should be punished. If they break international law they should be punished."
They didn't, the law only covers military use.
Harriet Wistrich, a member of the family's legal team said: "If this allegation is true it is clearly a cause for concern and is yet another signal that this was an unlawful killing. "We hope these allegations will be fully investigated."

The Home Office confirmed last night that "chief officers may use whatever ammunition they consider appropriate to meet their operational needs". The Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating the shooting.
Posted by:BrerRabbit

#15  I like to file a cross in the tip when shooting Islamic assholes (sorry, Jean Charles, that you jumped)...sends em to the wrong eternity
Posted by: Dirty Harry   2005-11-17 22:23  

#14  Shhssss. Don't tell them liberals about Wal-Mart. They will start banning camo and repellant.
Posted by: John Q. Citizen   2005-11-17 21:53  

#13  Great, now you can kill the game AND cook it at the same time.

Plus, it glows in the dark, so you can track your game more readily at dusk.

I don't suppose these idiots realize you can go into any Wal-Mart in the US and pick up these eeeeeevil hollowpoints. I can just imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would cause.
Posted by: Dar   2005-11-17 15:21  

#12  Plenipotentiaries

Steve, you've been just waiting to use that.

/lucky dawg
Posted by: Red Dog   2005-11-17 15:08  

#11  Thx for the background Steve.

I suspect the motivation wasn't so much the leathality of the ammunition but the inability to medically treat the wounded. Who knows...maybe they thought it would usher in The Great Pillow-Fights of the 21st Century?
Posted by: DepotGuy   2005-11-17 12:54  

#10  depleted uranium white phosphorus hollow points

Great, now you can kill the game AND cook it at the same time.

Posted by: anonymous5089   2005-11-17 12:20  

#9  Declaration (IV,3) concerning Expanding Bullets. The Hague, 29 July 1899.

The undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments, inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of 29 November (11 December) 1868, Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them. It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Powers, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible. The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague. A ' procès-verbal ' shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.

The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers. In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers. This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.

Done at The Hague, 29 July 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and copies of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers.

Since terrorist organization are by their nature a "non-Contracting Power", I would guess we are free to use expanding bullets. I mean, it's right there in the law.
Posted by: Steve   2005-11-17 12:01  

#8  Can someone explain the rationale behind banning this type of ammunition in warfare?

It makes a certain class of people feel warm and fuzzy about themselves.

It lets that same class of people pull tricks like this, which is the same exact lie being run about WP.
Posted by: Robert Crawford   2005-11-17 11:37  

#7  Can someone explain the rationale behind banning this type of ammunition in warfare?
Posted by: DepotGuy   2005-11-17 11:24  

#6   depleted uranium white phosphorus hollow points

Tried some of these last deer season. Good penetration, great stopping power, works well in brush. The meat tasted a little funny though, but that isn't usually a problem in police work. At least not here in the States.
Posted by: SteveS   2005-11-17 10:01  

#5  7 times in the head . i don't think it would have mattered i=f it was BB gun
Posted by: Jerelet Thineling2988   2005-11-17 09:48  

#4  The 27-year-old electrician was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder...

I'm sure he would have felt much better getting shot with conventional bullets...
Posted by: Raj   2005-11-17 09:44  

#3  I think they should be using depleted uranium white phosphorus hollow points myself...
Posted by: tu3031   2005-11-17 08:57  

#2  THE Brazilian man mistaken for a suicide bomber and shot dead by British police was killed with a type of bullet banned in warfare under international law, a newspaper reported today.

But its not a war, its an internal state police action. Shhhhshh. One day they want standards of peace time law enforcement, the next day they insist on war standards. Of course its all about defeating the enemy - the Good Guys[tm].
Posted by: Spurt Shereter8116   2005-11-17 08:35  

#1  Jeebus H. Christmas, what will these idiots get on about next?

The "banned" bullets are banned in WARTIME to ARMIES by the Geneva Convention.

THE POLICE ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE GENEVA CONVENTION!

Most police depts. in the US use "banned" ammunition because A) it stops the bad guy much better; B) it is much LESS dangerous to bystanders because it doesn't over penetrate.

The staties here in Mass use that "infamous" Black Talon ammo in their standard .40 caliber Sig Sauer SEMI-AUTOMATIC pistols.

Can we please start using "journalists" in place of lab rats and space robots?
Posted by: AlanC   2005-11-17 08:34  

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