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Britain
Critics warn new anti-terror plans could alienate British Muslims
2005-08-07
I love that headline, just as much as I love the reasoning or lack thereof behind it. Y'see, just because nine Moose limbs either exploded or tried to explode in the British public transit system, inflicting a large number of casualties on their fellow citizens or inhabitants in the name of their religion, that's no reason to take any action to protect the nation against members of their religion who may feel called upon to do the same thing. You might alienate other homicidal maniacs, who would them attempt to... ummm... do the same thing they were going to do anyway.
Prime Minister Tony Blair's government on Saturday defended its plans to crack down on extremist Islamic clerics who preach hate, as critics warned the measures could further alienate British Muslims.
Just an aside here, but when I was a lad, the noun was "hatred" and the verb was "to hate." When did the language change?
Britain's chief legal official, Lord Chancellor Charles Falconer, said the deadly attacks in London on July 7 showed the government must act against people "who are encouraging young men who are becoming suicide bombers. I think there is a very widespread sense in the country subsequent to July 7th that things have changed. A new balance needs to be struck. It needs to be a lawful balance but it needs to be an effective balance," he told British Broadcasting Corp. radio.
To me, that seems the very voice of sweet reason, but then I'm a linear thinker who believes in cause and effect...
Since the bombings on three subway trains and a bus, which killed 52 people and four suspected suicide attackers, Blair's government has been trying to build support among political opponents and Muslim leaders for new anti-terrorism legislation. On Friday, the prime minister announced proposals to deport foreign nationals who glorify acts of terror, bar radicals from entering Britain, close down mosques linked to extremism, ban certain Islamic groups and, if necessary, amend human rights laws.
That's basic management school stuff. If you have a problem, you identify solutions, staff them, apply feedback within constraints, then implement them.
But the government's new plans appear to have cracked the spirit of consensus. Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy warned the measures could alienate the law abiding majority of Britain's 1.8 million Muslims and inflame tensions.
Whoa, there Chuck! The measures involve deporting foreign nationals who glorify acts of terror, which the presumably law-abiding majority of Muslims should be happy to support; barring radicals from entering Britain, which would keep the population law-abiding, rather than flavoring it with the lawless; closing down mosques linked to extremism, which the law-abiding presumably don't frequent; and banning certain Islamic groups on the basic of their lack of law-abidingness. Which of those points, precisely, do you object to?
"A fundamental duty, a responsibility on all of us, whether government or nongovernment, is to uphold the rule of law and the safety of the citizen," he said.
Hey! Boilerplate! Go ahead, ooze some more platitudes...
"But alongside that, of course, is to uphold civil liberties and the right to free speech. It is getting that balance right that will be very important ..." he told BBC radio.
Agreed. It's very important. Also important is stopping people from killing large numbers of Londoners with explosives in the public transportation system and maiming even more.
A British Muslim group called the Islamic Forum Europe warned the measures could jeopardize national unity in Britain.
That means they don't like it, pehaps because they're not... ummm... law-abiding at heart...
"If these proposed measures are allowed to see the light of day, they will increase tensions and alienate communities. The measures are counterproductive and will encourage more radicalization," said forum President Musleh Faradhi. "Many Muslims will perceive our prime minister as playing into the hands of the terrorists." He also criticized the government's plans to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir, a radical Islamic group that calls for the formation of an Islamic caliphate and is banned in several countries in Central Asia. Supporters insist it is a nonviolent group persecuted by corrupt governments. "Proscribing it will be counterproductive," said Faradhi. "It will give a green light to despotic leaders in the Muslim world to silence political dissenters."

Meanwhile, three men were scheduled to appear in court Saturday charged with failing to disclose information about the whereabouts of a suspect in the failed July 21 London bomb attacks. The Metropolitan Police said Shadi Sami Abdel Gadir, 22, Omar Almagboul, 20, and Mohamed Kabashi, 23, were charged under the Terrorism Act with withholding information that they "knew or believed might be of material assistance in securing the apprehension, prosecution or conviction" of a terrorist suspect. Three other people already face similar charges, including the wife and sister-in-law of suspected bomber Hamdi Issac, who is being held in Rome.

A postscript...
I had to go out before I'd finished my train of thought on this article, specifically the part about how "the measures could jeopardize national unity in Britain."

I think I've made the point before that "unity" can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing. A common assessment of national purpose is a good thing. But if I step outside and see my next door neighbor, grab her by the neck, throw her to the ground and begin copulating, she and I have achieved a certain unity of purpose. She's still being raped. If I stop by the liquor store to buy a bottle of underpriced champagne and stick my trusty .38 in the cashier's face and holler "gimme your dough!" we've achieved a certain unity of purpose as he's handing over all the money. He's still being robbed. There are times when a certain amount of difference of opinion is good, even if it degenerates into a domestic altercation complete with throwing crockery and calling names. That's because sometimes one side of an argument is right and the other side is wrong. Those who're right have an obligation to stick to their principles, regardless of whether the other side is jumping up and down and rolling its eyes and calling bad names.
Posted by:Fred

#19  Hell I wish we would do that here stateside! Our country needs to rid itself of the terrorists too.
I don't feel that you should give in to the muslims to be politically correct on this. It's more important to be safe.
I like Blair's earlier comment, if you don't like it here leave.
CFool, I agree.
Posted by: Jan   2005-08-07 17:52  

#18  It would be nice to believe that SPoD, but I simply don't buy what comes out of the BBC anymore.
Posted by: Tony (UK)   2005-08-07 17:18  

#17  Ah shucks! And they were assimilating so well too....

Sorry OP, I have to disagree with you on that one. I have no problem keeping the LEGAL immigrants - they have shown their resilance and real desire to become part of the United States.

I draw the line at ILLEGAL aliens. By defintion they are here in violation of Federal law. Yes they may be 'law abiding' (now) and peaceful, just want to work and earn a wage, and the like. If they want to stay here they should have to go through the same process as anyone else desiring to come here legally fron anyone else - England, Philippines, Japan, Russa, India, etc... They should not get special treatment.

We should *never* reward them for breaking the law . We tried that and it only encourage more illegal aliens.

If we need the workforce then change the law to allow more LEGAL immigration. This will both filter the immigrants (background checks, medical checks, etc...), protect immigrants from those who would exploit their status (slave wages, etc..), and increase the value of 'U.S. citizenship'.
Posted by: CrazyFool   2005-08-07 17:14  

#16   I read the "Have Your Say" at the BBC on this topic just as it was starting. There were plenty of Muslims there saying "It's about time!", "deport the bastards", "too little to late", "I am a British Muslim, send these nut jobs packing." No one seems to need to hit these folks with a clue bat.

Do I see some major under reporting of this sentiment has gone on in the UK press perhaps? If so then how about the US press? Apparently some Muslims have been warning the UK government, for years in fact. I wonder if the US government has done the same, because they “are the wrong people” as in, not CAIR. Is it the same in the US as the UK? If it is, who's invisible hand is at work in the press? That "moderate Muslim" may not be a fictional being at all. They may just be getting ignored or misrepresented. Topic we have and will continue to debate here.

I still am taking a wait and see attitude to find out if Blair will deliver.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom   2005-08-07 17:04  

#15  alienate British Muslims ? who gives a sh##.
throw them out allready
Posted by: Viking   2005-08-07 15:13  

#14  OP wrote, "The things the left forgets is that the laws of a nation are there to protect the law-abiding, flag-waving, nation-loving people, not the rabble. If you don't enforce your laws, they become meaningless."

1. In the Left's view, everyone except themselves, especially patriotic..., are rabble.

2. They HOPE to make the laws that support our national identity meaningless.

Ergo, the Left has not forgotten.
Posted by: SR-71   2005-08-07 14:39  

#13  Let me correct myself - PIMF! We should keep the hard-working, and deport a, b, and c. Not enough coffee yet this morning...
Posted by: Old Patriot   2005-08-07 13:49  

#12  This is no different from our own internal problems with illegal immigrants. Most are willing to work hard, obey most of the laws of our nation, and don't cause problems. There's a minority that a) want to live on welfare, b) want to "return the Mexican territory to its legitimate owners", or c) want to deal drugs, commit crimes, and prey on society. We should keep the a crowd, and deport or exterminate the b and c crowd. The problem is, the liberal left want to lump ALL illegal immigrants under one umbrella, and force us to keep them all. The same is true with Muslims.

The things the left forgets is that the laws of a nation are there to protect the law-abiding, flag-waving, nation-loving people, not the rabble. If you don't enforce your laws, they become meaningless. As far as "alienating" the "good" Muslims, if they're offended by the police cracking down on the rabble, then they're part of the problem, and deserve the same treatment. We might want to also consider deporting some of the loony left that can't understand that.
Posted by: Old Patriot   2005-08-07 13:44  

#11  And of course JFM has nailed it in one.

We ought to set a book up on the first European country to start mass deportations - my money is on the Netherlands, but with the article on 'The Left' in Germany, it could be them...
Posted by: Tony (UK)   2005-08-07 13:07  

#10  LotP - the stats page shows 'Other' as 230k, which should include all the ones you've mentioned. I don't think we have many Algerians here, but I could be wrong.
Posted by: Tony (UK)   2005-08-07 13:04  

#9  Tony, what about Somalis, Algerians, Arabs, ???
Posted by: leader of the pack   2005-08-07 12:59  

#8  Problem is that "Pakistani Muslims" would want a "pure" state of their own within the United Kingdom.

This is the very ethos of Pakistan.

Read the article by MJ Ackbar in the opinion thread.

Posted by: john   2005-08-07 12:24  

#7  As distinc from the situation now?
Posted by: gromgoru   2005-08-07 12:06  

#6  I seem to recall in the British census that a large number of Britons declared their religion to be "Jedi". Would that count as Islamic?
Posted by: Anonymoose   2005-08-07 11:29  

#5  Simple solution: have those alienated Muslims become Pakistani Muslims, living in Pakistan of course and problem solved.
Posted by: JFM   2005-08-07 11:28  

#4  
Critics warn new anti-terror plans could alienate British Muslims
One can only hope!

Enough to leave, maybe?

(Nah, I didn't think so either.)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2005-08-07 11:18  

#3  Ok, apart from the usual BS of alienation, there's one thing that really ticks me off - this 1.8 million muslims (last I heard it was 1.6 million, it seems to fluctuate all the time).

Check this out from the 2001 Census.

Indian - 1.05 million, Pakistani - 747k, Bangladeshi - 283k, other asian - 247k. Mixed race is about 670k.

Now the stats say that 90% of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are Muslim, with about 10% of the Indians as well. Mixed race is about 10% Muslim, so that makes 1.2 million max. So where's the other 600k from?

Now there are lies, damn lies and statistics, but I'd rather believe them than the words of a politician who is a well known as a profligate opportunist.
Posted by: Tony (UK)   2005-08-07 11:15  

#2  I thought they were already alienated by their own choice....
Posted by: mmurray821   2005-08-07 10:39  

#1  Some wit should propose that all British clerics be licensed, pointing out that CofE, Catholic, and Jewish clerics are licensed already. Remember that being "clergy" entails a lot more than preaching a sermon. Most of it is financial, managerial, counseling, etc., all of which are generally licensed in the secular world. This would, of course, result in the immediate arrest of clerics involved in unlawful use of monies provided to them.
Posted by: Anonymoose   2005-08-07 10:37  

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