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| Great White North |
| Before You Flee to Canada, Can We Talk? |
| 2004-11-28 |
| EFL I moved to Canada after the 2000 election. Although I did it mainly for career reasons -- I got a job whose description read as though it had been written precisely for my rather quirky background and interests -- at the time I found it gratifying to joke that I was leaving the United States because of George W. Bush. It felt fine to think of myself as someone who was actually going to make good on the standard election-year threat to leave the country. Also, I had spent years of my life feeling like I wasn't a typical American and wishing I could be Canadian. I wanted to live in a country that was not a superpower, a country I believe to have made the right choices about fairness, human rights and the social compact. So I could certainly identify with the disappointed John Kerry supporters who started fantasizing about moving to Canada after Nov. 2. But after nearly four years as an American in the Great White North, I've learned it's not all beer and doughnuts. If you're thinking about coming to Canada, let me give you some advice: Don't. Although I enjoy my work and have made good friends here, I've found life as an American expatriate in Canada difficult, frustrating and even painful in ways that have surprised me. As attractive as living here may be in theory, the reality's something else. For me, it's been one of almost daily confrontation with a powerful anti-Americanism that pervades many aspects of life. When I've mentioned this phenomenon to Canadian friends, they've furrowed their brows sympathetically and said, "Yes, Canadian anti-Americanism can be very subtle." My response is, there's nothing subtle about it. |
| Posted by:Mrs. Davis |
| #24 I've been coming to Toronto once a week for the last 3 months. So far the only comments I've heard about the U.S. has been a group of immigrants bitterly complaining about the Canadians refusal to recognize their foreign education when applying for work while their friends in the States have no problems getting hired and 2 Canadian very loudly supporting U.S. foreign policy on the train. Oh, then there was a debate in my class between a Pakistani-Canadian who thought the Bush was a terrorist and an Indo-Canadian who assured here that Iraqis and Afghanis were grateful for liberations, particularly the Afghanis who had gained the right to shave. If there is tremendous popular feeling against the U.S. there all I can say is its very well hidden. |
| Posted by: Michael E Piston 2004-11-28 6:12:37 PM |
| #23 Mrs D: Thanks for the link to the study. I'm looking forward to reading it. SM: One of the reasons I don't read too much into this article is that Anti-Americanism is alive and well in my part of the country too (Seattle). Until such a time as you can get yourself south of the border, find some western separatists to hang out with. It will make you feel much better about being Canadian. |
| Posted by: Classical_Liberal 2004-11-28 5:37:28 PM |
| #22 And you'll be welcome here, SM, I'll bet. It sucks to be forced to accept such jobs - I hope you get something challenging / skill-enhancing when you come back. This is a truly fascinating thread - almost makes me ashamed I ranted... almost, heh. Thanks for the info and research and experiences, all - excellent. Rantburg U rocks. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-11-28 4:16:53 PM |
| #21 Singapore, maybe Chile would be candidates. Of course I favor our picking off the world's best and brightest, but I'll admit that the swiftness of the change in our economy and the inevitable increase in inequality are a bit scary because it's so heavily reinforcing: docs and lawyers marry docs and lawyers, execs marry execs, etc. So let's keep rewarding the strivers and creaming off the best Canucks and Euros but at the same time, sharply increase needs-based scholarship $$$ to be sure that our meritocracy actually enables the children of less-educated parents to move up as well. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-11-28 4:13:16 PM |
| #20 Iâll also add to the economic side of the equation. I went to college in Canada. When I graduated, the economic situation was supposedly pretty good and I was told it would be easy to find a good job. Well, it took me a few months to find a job and it was working as a janitor for the university. Most of my other classmates had difficulty finding work after graduation too. I was looking to leave Canada anyways and found a much better job as a financial analyst in New York City. I had a few finance and healthcare related jobs when I was down there, but a fairly lengthy period of unemployment due to 9/11 consequences. Anyways, I loved living New York, but had to go due to some family issues up here. When I came back here, my father told me that the economy was âboomingâ and that I would have no trouble finding a good job. And did I? Iâm currently working at a call center and have had no luck finding anything else in my field, or any better job for that matter. Iâve had two other interviews in the seven months Iâve been back, but theyâve been as sales or other call center positions. Iâm making less than half the salary I did in the States and still paying higher taxes. I have a good education and good work experience, but this seems to be the best I can find. I also work with a lot of people with Masters Degrees who are having the same sort of luck in this âboomingâ Canadian economy. Iâm planning on leaving in the New Year. |
| Posted by: SM 2004-11-28 4:09:19 PM |
| #19 Lex, All that and, it is becoming more explicit and well understood by your "strivers" world wide. I have always thought we were the most revolutionary country in the world and represented a threat to tyrants around the globe. But to any country that does not take care of its best and brightest, we represent a more subtle and insidious threat, no matter how (classically) liberal its political institutions. What it also makes me wonder about is when the U. S. will be approached by a now independent country with an application for statehood. If we were to revert to a more federal structure, I suspect we could grow through M & A. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 3:59:48 PM |
| #18 Mrs D raises an important point: the hatred of America shown by Canada and Europe's social egalitarian levellers is grounded in fear of a new economic and social order in which professionals and other knowledge workers with advanced education and skills reap huge benefits while those without such skills bump along sideways. America is the magnet for well-educated strivers who want more freedom, more opportunity, more income and lower taxes. Each year we take more and more of the ROW's best educated, most talented and most productive professionals, technicians, scientists and entrepreneurs. The harsh fact is that most of the value in this new economic order is created by these high strivers, no matter where they come from or in which nation they work. This is the rough truth that the anti-Americans deny. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-11-28 3:39:47 PM |
| #17 Mrs. Davis, The info is on the Canadian and U.S. Immigration websites. According to Canada there were 5,818 U.S. citizens moving there in 2002 (last year reported). The U.S. reported 19,519 Canadian moving south that same year. Like a 3-1 advantage for the U.S. so we can afford to send some more loonies North. |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2004-11-28 3:19:51 PM |
| #16 OK, so I did some research and found this fascinating document prepared by someone working for the Conference Board of Canada. The ratio is about 2.5:1. But what is really amazing is the composition of the immigrants. The rate for Professional Managers is 59:1. Similar rates appear for engineers and nurses. The study concludes "brain drain is rising and perhaps at an increasing rate...All economic factors such as higher incime, better employment opportunities, and lower taxes, have consistently been weighted in favour of the United States...Canadian professionals respond to these economic factors in a strong way. "In adition the emotional and psychological barriers that used to keep Canadians at home are now much less relevant. The health care and welfare systmes, a hallmark of Canadian distinctiveness, similarly do not carry much weight...For many professionals working in the United States, the cost of health care is covered by their employer and the quality of the service is superior to Canada." The bottom line is that even Canada is acting as a farm club for the U. S., sending us her best and replacing them with third world college graduates who could not get into the U. S. (Or so the Conference Board of Canada wants us, or the Canadian government, to believe.) It would be interesting to know how many third worlders who can't get in the U. S. are coming to Canada hoping their children will be able to get into the US via NAFTA. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 3:06:31 PM |
| #15 I lived for 12 years in Toronto and the pervasive institutionalized Anti-Americanism drove me crazy. It was petty, nasty and plain vindictive. It was instrumental in my leaving and to this day I flatly refuse to move back there, despite everyone in my family having Canadian passports and my wife regularly trying to persuade me. And BTW I'm not an American. |
| Posted by: phil_b 2004-11-28 3:05:26 PM |
| #14 Last time I went to Canada it was closed. Annoyed people kept telling me it wasn't so bad once you got used to. I wanted to reach down and rip their lungs out! |
| Posted by: Lucky 2004-11-28 2:58:05 PM |
| #13 I wouldn't read too much into this article. The subtitle could have been, "Self-absorbed American let down by self-absorbed Canadians". Confusing Torontonians with the rest of Canada is a mistake. There is a reason that Toronto is known elsewhere in Canada as, "Toronto: Center of the Universe". I completely disagree with this. Iâm speaking as a dual US and Canadian citizen currently living in Edmonton, Alberta. Anti-Americanism is very alive and well in this part of the country and has been around long before 9/11 anyone here ever heard of George Bush. Granted, it got worse under Chretienâs watch, as he fanned these flames, but itâs been around and itâs been around all over this country. |
| Posted by: SM 2004-11-28 2:17:10 PM |
| #12 Words, words words. The emigration numbers say it all. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-11-28 2:15:24 PM |
| #11 Mrs D, no link for you but I've heard the disparity is more than 4:1 CND=>US:US=>CND. Something like 21,000 CND=>US vs 5,000 US=>CND each year. |
| Posted by: lex 2004-11-28 2:14:41 PM |
| #10 Mrs. D: I've often seen the figure that there are over a million Canadians in greater Los Angeles alone. Probably overstated, but Canadians are constantly coming and going in large numbers. I wouldn't read too much into this article. The subtitle could have been, "Self-absorbed American let down by self-absorbed Canadians". Confusing Torontonians with the rest of Canada is a mistake. There is a reason that Toronto is known elsewhere in Canada as, "Toronto: Center of the Universe". |
| Posted by: Classical_Liberal 2004-11-28 2:09:21 PM |
| #9 Gromky, It gave .com a chance to give an excellent rant on page 2. It does give an interesting perspective on the LLL view of the Nirvana to the North. C Sarge, that is a very interesting statistic. Do you have an on line link? I'd really like to see that. Given the variance in population, that more Canadians come to America than vice versa is quite surprising. |
| Posted by: Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 1:19:32 PM |
| #8 And we care about Canadian opinion WHY, exactly? Why is this article even here? |
| Posted by: gromky 2004-11-28 1:12:23 PM |
| #7 And we care about Canadian opinion WHY, exactly? Why is this article even here? |
| Posted by: gromky 2004-11-28 1:12:19 PM |
| #6 Another article on related Canadian foolishness here. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-11-28 12:50:05 PM |
| #5 Canada is very useful as an object lesson. Canada shows the absolute waste and parasitic drag induced by manadatory bilingualism. Canada shows the utter failure of state run medical delivery systems. Canada shows the futility of "morally superior" impotence. Canadians were with us when they needed us to protect them. Now the Lilliputians are busy telling themselves how great they are for a national policy of obstructing Gulliver. Like masturbation, satisfying at the moment but ultimately nonproductive. Fairly safe too, because Gulliver doesn't really notice or consider them worth the trouble of squashing. |
| Posted by: RWV 2004-11-28 12:49:19 PM |
| #4 A little known factoid is that many more Canadians emigrate to the US than the other way around. So I encourage all the dhimis to line up at the Canadian Embassy and GO! |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge 2004-11-28 12:10:44 PM |
| #3 Lol... My response is NSFW America is alive. A reasoned complete response to this article would be, easily, as long as the article. As someone who has been an "ex pat" for most of the last decade, I understand all of the aspects she describes - and more she's blissfully unaware of. Personally, I think she's a total wimp. I wonder, would she be happy in a locale where Americans were not hated, but much of what she knows as "normal" was not available? What about a locale where the language barrier existed and was a huge impediment and expense in her daily life. What about a place where they'd really really like to cut your head off? She whineth much - and over such a small pivot point: they don't like / trust Americans. Sniff, sniff. My point is that I don't want her to scare the nitwits off - Go to Canada! Hurry! You'll Love It! Trust Me! [ranty-rant-rant] I'll keep it simple. As an American, a real (Lol!) American, a people who giggle while they poop on pretense, revel in the simplisme because complexity seldom actually exists as anything more than a series of simple issues / choices, bridle at kow-towing and anyone who tolerates it or practices it, ridicule class system climbers and everything related to the range from royalty to coastal snobbery, refuse to stoop unless forced but joyfully soar above the eagles when allowed, love a blowhard - as entertainment and object lesson in a runaway ego, jeer as openly as cheer, recognize that actions determine who is friend and who is foe, consider nuance the province of the weak-kneed gutless turd, happily pass out pins when confronted with yokels living in bubbles of puffery and buffonery, laugh at everything - including ourselves, and stop laughing when there's work to be done -- I offer the main theme from Team America - cuz it's funnier than anything I could come up with (credit where due, lol): "The world is made up of three kinds of people - dicks, pussies, and assholes." She's a pussy - and no I'm not being redundant - stay there, cow, we don't need you. Canadians are increasingly choosing to be cowardly hypocritical assholes who love and depend upon our economic engine while spitting in our faces and spouting the old canard, the obvious fallacy of moral superiority. Pfeh, fuckwits. Fair Warning: we are the dicks who will fuck you if you get in our way. There's shit to be done. You want to sit it out? Your choice, but know this: every choice has consequences. Figure it out for yourselves. Fuck yeah. [/ranty-rant-rant] * Not Safe For Wimps, Weenies, Wussies, and Wankers. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-11-28 11:24:26 AM |
| #2 The writer was living in Toronto, if she had been in Montréal instead, her problem would have likely been compounded by radical Quebecois which act like idiom enforcers when it comes to the people in 'their' province speaking English. On other hand it is true the majority of Americans have next to little or no idea when it comes to Canada's history which in throughout the eastern Provinces is interwoven with Colonial America in the French & Indian Wars, The Revolution right up until the War of 1812. Even many Canadians know do not fully grasp both our nations are natural enemies of Islam's radical jihadists. A united front is far better equipped to defeat the terrorist enemy, then squabbles over border & cultural issues. |
| Posted by: Mark Espinola 2004-11-28 10:20:49 AM |
| #1 Interesting article; she paints a picture of Canadians as being almost obsessed with America and its faults-- real or imagined. |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-11-28 10:01:52 AM |