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| Europe |
| Terror alert: The Hague, West Holland 'targeted' |
| 2004-07-16 |
| Posted by:Dutchgeek |
| #80 I predicted 84 comments....just a slight overestimate :-) |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-07-17 9:34:36 AM |
| #79 It's the one where people admit of spending post after post in trolling and baiting, but nonetheless it's the *other* party in the debate that gets accused for increasing its length? |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 10:15:12 PM |
| #78 Ahhh A Aris thread how did I know. |
| Posted by: djohn66 2004-07-16 9:40:41 PM |
| #77 I doubt I can be both an appeaser and a contrarian, Jen. When have you ever seen me try to "appease" anyone in this forum or anywhere else? :-) And it's only you who stands to lose if you choose to see my opinions as the "illustration" of whatever hypothetical group I somehow illustrate -- which in this forum tends to be a fictional chimaeric construction that couldn't exist anywhere -- alternately pro-Turkish and anti-Turkish, pro-Dutch and anti-Dutch, left-wing internationalist and nationalistically Greek, who urges Israel to be more aggressive and who supposedly urges it to surrender. Good article btw, but a bit short and bare-bones. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 9:29:40 PM |
| #76 Tony Blankley lays out the EUropean problem here: Can Kerry fix Europe? [Katsaris, I ceased to be interested in your personal problems months ago. The world is at war and your contributions to the conversation are simply "not helpful" except to illustrate European appeasement and contrarianism.] |
| Posted by: Jen 2004-07-16 9:13:59 PM |
| #75 Having one friend who actually is Dutch I can say that going by what he says the "muslims" are not popular. He personally would like to see them all sent back to their place of origin. Apperently they occupy much of the limited housing people his age would normaly be moving into. They don't assimilate. ( we keep hearing this) They congergate in gangs (of young punks) and start fights. He thinks Saddam being gone is a good thing and has no use for terrorists like the PLO. By the way the Hauge is just a location. Being located there doesn't mean much. BTW there are many muslims where he works in the Prison system. They are a majority of the inmates at his location. |
| Posted by: FlameBait93268 2004-07-16 9:12:09 PM |
| #74 You are obsessed with me, Jen. As for my personal habits, once again you confuse victim and victimizer -- it was ed, NOT me, who started discussing them, first by the homosexuality "accusations", second by reference on my TV watching habits. I'm not interested in sparring with ed. I'm interested in clearing up the facts. The cute thing is that I somehow "punished" Holland, according to Jen. I wonder if Jen can find a single post, in any thread, on any date, where I've attacked even one aspect of Netherlands, one tiny bit. Unless, just like ed, she can't tell the difference between sarcasm and seriousness. Because the whole thing started with me *defending* Netherlands from Victory's moronic attack. While ofcourse Jen lifted nary a finger. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 9:10:27 PM |
| #73 For someone who's not interested in being someone's "sparring partner," you've argued quite a bit, Acropolis Boy,once again, hijacking the thread and talking about your personal habits and anti-Semitic, Socialist EU political bent at length. Holland is being punished by both AQ and Aris for being "nationalistic" and sending troops to the Coalition for OIF. If the Dutch had behaved themselves by following the party line of the Weasel powers France and Germany, Aris and his pals who love EUrabia could relax. RBers, AK is the personification of EU obsession with the USA--their jealousy and envy of everything that makes us great as a nation, but most of all they hate our nationalism, our military and economic strength and our success in everything from TV sitcoms to smart bombs. His posts are interesting only to the extent that they reveal how the EU is not only the "sick man of Europe" but the sick man of the planet. Even the Africans in their ignorance and poverty have a better grasp of reality. |
| Posted by: Jen 2004-07-16 8:54:07 PM |
| #72 That's why I'm telling you, you don't have a clue about my viewing habits -- not a single one of the shows mentioned are in them, some because I never liked them (Married with Children), some I liked but they are not on TV anymore (West Wing or Simpsons) -- and some were never broadcasted in Greece and I've caught only 3 minutes of them on MTV once (Beavis and Butthead) and what I saw was enough to turn me away. Get my point? I refer to an American show and you assume it's in my "watching habits". But that's typical of you -- you also assumed I'm gay because I mentioned homosexuality. Trolled enough, yet? But keep on punching if you like, because I'm *not* interested in being your "sparring partner". |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 8:41:29 PM |
| #71 Frank, Nix that. I see Sal is back, and you are needed elsewhere. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 8:30:27 PM |
| #70 Give us time Frank. Sadly though, I have to take off soon. Can you take over? |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 8:28:09 PM |
| #69 "Married with Children". "The Simpsons". "Beavis and Butthead". -- Classy shows all. But I can how the cartoon atmosphere would appeal to you. "West Wing" -- BTW, this the real comedy show. The quality of your comments has gone considerably downhill. I expect better from you. I would rather have a sparring partner than a punching bag. Please try to do better next time. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 8:26:21 PM |
| #68 Well, if the terrorists are going to hit the Hague, they should look into the ICC. Just kidding....bad taste...... |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2004-07-16 8:18:50 PM |
| #67 c'mon people! Back in comment #17 I predicted another 84 comment-thread...you're slacking! |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-07-16 8:12:34 PM |
| #66 Even more trollery, ed? You are *proud* of being a troll? "BTW I never doubted your 'Greekness'. When I think of a stereotypical Greek, I think of you." No doubt you do. Which tells more things about you than about either me or Greeks as a whole. And you don't know one bit about my TV-viewing habits, btw. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 8:07:02 PM |
| #65 >>And Americans are naive? *You* said that, I never did. Poor punctuationally confused boy. Use all the mockery you like, ... I will, trust me. BTW I never doubted your 'Greekness'. When I think of a stereotypical Greek, I think of you. Btw, such belief in cliches hasn't been the best advertisement of intelligence either, ... Most of your posts are you spouting your prejudices and cliches. The bit about your television viewing habits and the transference of that to your traumatized psyche is a classic. I'd have considered Greek anti-Americanism unsurpassed in Europe. That because you have a delusional, inflated self image. You are in no way as good as the French, but I give you credit for the effort. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 7:57:47 PM |
| #64 ed> And Americans are naive? *You* said that, I never did. It's a well known fact all Greeks are named Zorba, sing and dance, or are prostitutes named Ilya who never do it on Sunday. Use all the mockery you like, but it's rather ironic when in this very thread you've used the cliched insult about Greeks that I've seen a dozen times in Rantburg, namely homosexuality. Not to mention how many times my Greekness has been doubted in this forum because I should have stereotypically virulantly hated Turkey. Now you say that people that spout stereotypes are idiots? I quite quite agree. You are idiots, o ye who spout stereotypes. Btw, such belief in cliches hasn't been the best advertisement of intelligence either, though *unlike* some of you I've not been stupid enough to generalize from your personal intelligence to American intelligence as a whole. and I consider Greek enmity second only to the French Really? I've admittedly only been to France once and briefly and never discussed Politics while in it, but I'd have considered Greek anti-Americanism unsurpassed in Europe. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 7:34:38 PM |
| #63 it feels like such a painful stab in the back that in a post 9-11 world, so much of Europe sided against the US regarding a strategic action in the War Against Islamists™. Iraq had everything to do with terrorism. So does Iran. So does Fraudi Arabia. So does Syria. So do others. The task of defeating these evil blood-cultists seems insurmountable at times. Especially when your "allies" not only disagree, but actively work against your best interests. How would you suggest we turn back the clock so that France, Germany, and their friends can have another opportunity to do the right thing? While were at it, should we turn back the clock far enough so that Europe can have a chance to stop a few other genocides? Some less than 15 years ago? I don't disagree that we should do what we can to work with Europe,(I think Bush has), but as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water.... I understand. I really really understand. For those who don't know me via earlier comments of mine here, or through my occasional articles at Winds of Change, please know that I take the WOT very seriously and personally. My daughter was not far from the twin towers on 9/11. Friends of ours were in the Pentagon that day. And I personally teach young men and women who leave me to become commissioned Army officers and end up in places like Iraq a few months later. If we all are at war, then perhaps we can learn some of the skills our Army leaders develop. One of them is this: when there's a lot at stake, do not let yourself be distracted by emotions. Just don't. The more that is at stake, the more important it is to become grimly focused on the solution. Most of us on this list are not literally being fired at - right now, anyway - but we can resolve to bring a similar focus and intent discipline to our part, which is the debate over policy and the rallying of our own friends, family and net acquaintances. So, as a former President suggested, "Trust but verify". Aris is right that there are many in Europe who have, or believe they have, reasons to resent the US and distrust us. I won't pass judgement on all those issues here. I'll just say that we all have more at stake right now than that. Even the French do. With them, I trust less and verify more. But we need to work with them as well. And with the Greeks and the Spaniards and the south Koreans and even with the Phillipines and Indonesia and .... whomever. We don't need to pretend our interests totally coincide, that we trust one another deeply in many ways or that we like one another. We do need to find ways to work together as much as is possible -- consonant with our own security and our best judgement about how to defeat the terror networks and the ideologies and conditions that bolster them. It's in our own interest to do so and it is part of being a world leader. I'm not saying give them a veto on our actions - nor do we have one on theirs. Nor would I trust all our allies to cover my back ... some I would, some I would work near to and some I would prefer to have a more arm's length relationship with. But any help we can get in dealing with this threat is worth taking, if we don't give up basic security in so doing. I know of too many countries and civilizations that have been destroyed by barbarians to be complacent ... and know that many of them eroded from within when faced with threats they could otherwise have outfaced. Let's not have it happen to us. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 7:19:37 PM |
| #62 It's good to see this tread is still active. RKB, your posts say what I would have liked, only without the anger and bitterness to those Europeans who wish the US harm. Kudos. Having lived outside the US for more than a few years and visiting many countries, I know what an extraordinary place America is. Though Rantburg does not reflect the values of all Americans, but it does reflect the values of those who will fight for it. At this juncture in time, that is the most important segment. My only point of disagreement is I think we need to fight as total war. I just am not as touchy-feely as Bush about reforming a religion and population who basic premise is to destroy all other civilizations. So in that respect he may know more or be smarter than I. I say plan with calculating coldness, but fight with white-hot anger, and no mercy, just as the Arabs have shown us. "Married with Children". "The Simpsons". "Beavis and Butthead". And Americans are naive? It's a well known fact all Greeks are named Zorba, sing and dance, or are prostitutes named Ilya who never do it on Sunday. Or should Americans base our Euro perceptions on Italian TV? "West Wing". With a prez played by the biggest nut job in Hollywood. Hokay. Suggest a dose of skepticism and alternate forms of entertainment. Same for your news sources. We are in a tribal war. The Arab tribes (with other Muslim tribes as natural allies) are against the western tribes (with Americans and Jews in the forefront) and other tribes on the Muslim boundaries). Many of those tribes who lost to the Arabs conquests no longer exist. So it comes as bitter disappointment that much of Europe, who have been sheltered by American blood, sweat, and treasure, would rather see the Arabs win, or at least the American lose. I remember how a few days after the 9/11 attacks that tried to kill 100,000 people, the Eurotrash began spouting off how it's tragic and all, but the American deserved it (or that Americans or Jews were behind it), and how the Eurotrash couldn't possibly even entertain the thought the Americans would counter attack and took steps to sabotage it. Then even larger efforts and vitriol to prevent the removal of the bloodiest dicator in the Middle East and sworn enemy of America. Well, a big FU and my undying enmity to anyone who thinks/supported that. I had tickets to go to Europe a few days after 9/11 and have been there about 10 times. But I will never travel again to Europe outside of the UK or Eastern Europe. Feel the hate Aris. Let it nourish you. Maybe it will help you Euros grow a spine and stand on your own. Americans have been putting up with the stench emanating from Europe for much too long (and I consider Greek enmity second only to the French). Let the US leave Western Europe and cut contacts and trade to the bare minimum. It was the first two World Wars that brought the US into Europe. Let the Third be the one to finally get us out. Take away our self imposed restraints and the shackles of false friendship, and fight this war to conclusion. Make them an example for others. I hope Western Europe (except UK) never needs the US to spill blood for them again, though I expect that in 20 years they will plead for just that. If so, I will be at the front of the picket lines shouting at the top of my lungs "No war for backstabbers. No war for self indulgent and delusional Eurotrash". Live or die on your own dime. No blood for olive oil. No blood for wine and cheese. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 7:16:51 PM |
| #61 jules> You always seem humorless and smug-why are you so bitter towards us? I'm smug, because I'm arrogant. And my bitterness derives from the fact that I rarely care enough to comment on issues that don't annoy me enough to make me bitter. But I can assure you I'm bitter when debating Greeks on Greek forums also, so it's not a thing I have against Americans specifically. If there is something you want to say to America about why Greeks feel we are not a reliable ally, then say it. Jules, that's been too often discussed for even me to want to reenter the discussion but it could probably be synopsized in the words "Junta of the Colonels". Though I suppose there's a large portion of the Greek population that would instead synopsize it as "Turkey". I guess it depends on whether their distrust is based on left-wing or right-wing attitudes. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 6:52:54 PM |
#60 get over it for now and concentrate on the central priority, which is working together as best we can to protect Western culture, democracy and economy from a determined enemy.I agree, which is why it feels like such a painful stab in the back that in a post 9-11 world, so much of Europe sided against the US regarding a strategic action in the War Against Islamists™. Iraq had everything to do with terrorism. So does Iran. So does Fraudi Arabia. So does Syria. So do others. The task of defeating these evil blood-cultists seems insurmountable at times. Especially when your "allies" not only disagree, but actively work against your best interests. How would you suggest we turn back the clock so that France, Germany, and their friends can have another opportunity to do the right thing? While were at it, should we turn back the clock far enough so that Europe can have a chance to stop a few other genocides? Some less than 15 years ago? I don't disagree that we should do what we can to work with Europe,(I think Bush has), but as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water.... |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 6:45:39 PM |
| #59 Bulldog -- your argument doesn't work because what you call "autoironic" must still be applied on *self-perceived* flaws. If Americans see their self-perceived flaw to be stupidity and/or ignorance, that's still an issue of self-slander. That's your interpretation of American humour, and it seems to me both ignorant and arrogant. I think you must miss by a mile anything less than blindingly obvious humour. Is that really your opinion of a show like The Simpsons, which is amusing and entertaining on so many different levels? I'd call it comic genius. I'd say the same for South Park, too. Neither portray the US in what could be called a "flattering" light, yet probably do more to enhance America's image abroad than just about anything... |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2004-07-16 6:19:41 PM |
| #58 The stereotypical European is inordinately smug in his or her sense of moral and cultural superiority to the US - a smugness Americans increasingly find both unwarranted and offensive. I agree. I found it true over there as well as here. And I have felt that way about some of your responses, Aris. You always seem humorless and smug-why are you so bitter towards us? If there is something you want to say to America about why Greeks feel we are not a reliable ally, then say it. American TV, Aris, is much like the Spanish language TV. Have you seen Univision? There are a number of shows on it that are shallow and embarrassing, to say the least, but one in particular comes to mind-a very popular Spanish talk show that deliberately places people with disfigured faces in the camera shots. Does the fact that a segment of their population loves the show mean that Hispanics are mean-spirited people with a sick sense of humor? Of course not. Every nation has its low-lifes, doesn't it? One more thing-that some of us doubt the first steps of the EU doesn't mean we wish it ill. |
| Posted by: jules 187 2004-07-16 5:49:46 PM |
| #57 Before we go too far from it, I want to repeat something Aris said, because I think it's critically important to us all. But that we don't have an alliance of *trust* doesn't mean that we don't have the IMO more important alliance of common goals. Namely that we want to preserve democracy and freedom in each of our continents. This is what I had in mind when I wrote: If we are to reverse these two trends and work together, a good place to start is some humility on Europe's part and a focus on the key priorities on the part of Americans. Otherwise, America will indeed suffer the fate of Athens in the 5th century BC. But Europe will suffer Sparta's. I've been challenging Aris on the first part, but let me also challenge my own fellow Americans (gawd, that sounds like a campaign speech) as well: You are pissed about European duplicity, self-indulgence and smug condescending moralizing. Me too. You wouldn't want to live in the EU, and neither do I. I'm not suggesting you pretend none of that is true. But: get over it for now and concentrate on the central priority, which is working together as best we can to protect Western culture, democracy and economy from a determined enemy. It truly will take us a generation - decades - to dismantle the terror networks and the ideologies that feed them. WE COULD LOSE. In the face of that threat, we all need to put aside smaller issues, no matter how strongly we feel about them, and work together. Debate, disagree - sure. But go back and read this thread and others that sometimes pop up at Rantburg, and ask if the personally nasty tone (from several directions) is getting us any closer to securing our way of life ... or if it is subtly helping to unravel it. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 5:48:33 PM |
| #56 Bulldog -- your argument doesn't work because what you call "autoironic" must still be applied on *self-perceived* flaws. If Americans see their self-perceived flaw to be stupidity and/or ignorance, that's still an issue of self-slander. Compare in contrast "My big fat Greek wedding". The bits that worked and produced laughter (atleast in the Greek cinema I attended) where the ones that contained reality or atleast the perception of reality. The linguistic chauvinism of the father for example -- one of the self-perceived flaws is nationalism. Or when in the end the family buys their daughter and her husband a home next to them. That produced tons of laughter -- self perceived flaws once again. "Auto-irony" works only on them. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 5:45:51 PM |
| #55 I guess it's a cultural thing then, Aris. Do Greeks have what an Italian described to me as an 'autoironic' sense of humour? Shows like the Simpsons demonstrate that Americans are more than happy to laugh at themselves. If they were culturally "flattering", they wouldn't be ... funny. Perhaps you just don't get it. |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2004-07-16 5:33:46 PM |
| #54 But I am suggesting that any educated European who chooses to judge the US only based on TV and idiotic movies has been ... lazy. No shit. That's exactly what I've been saying also. As for your questions, I don't know many non-Greek Europeans. And my Greek friends would be an unrepresentative sample, and most of them are largely uninterested in international politics one way or another. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 5:33:32 PM |
| #53 PS: on the other hand, I've had several conversations with Bulgarians and Czechs who not only had read many of the seminal articles from those American think tanks, but had also thought deeply about the issues they raised. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 5:28:43 PM |
| #52 Bulldog, yet again, utterly misses the point which wasn't a pissing off contest about the quality of American shows versus the quality of Greek ones, but rather about the way said shows represented American life and American intelligence -- namely in a quite quite non-flattering way. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 5:28:24 PM |
| #51 Let me take my point just a little farther. How many Europeans do you know, Aris, who are familiar with the depth and breadth of political and international relations theory and analysis that has come out of US think tanks for the last 40 years? Most of it has been published in journals that are easily subscribed to and these days, some is available for free on the web. My own experience is that I've never - not once - personally talked with a Western European who describes himself as current in international issues who has done so. I'm not suggesting you should agree with those analysts, btw. For one thing, there is more than one school of international policy analysis in the States so they don't agree with each other. But I am suggesting that any educated European who chooses to judge the US only based on TV and idiotic movies has been ... lazy. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 5:26:26 PM |
| #50 And if Greek/European TV wasn't showing "Married With Children" etc. it'd be showing high-brow home-made TV instead? Who're you trying to fool, Aris?! Let's face it: when the US isn't producing better popular TV than the local outputs - that's when you'll see less of it on your TV. What was the las Greek "West Wing"? Anyone remember?! |
| Posted by: Bulldog 2004-07-16 5:23:16 PM |
| #49 Sure it's naive. But 50% of the European population has less than average intelligence. Point remains that it's not only a *European* effort meant to slander Americans, self-slander also seems to occur. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 5:18:49 PM |
| #48 True enough. But ... ahem ... may I suggest it's rather naive to base serious political beliefs on TV shows ??? |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 5:14:25 PM |
| #47 Put those together, and I am afraid that it is increasingly hard for many Americans to view European countries as reliable allies at all. Do you think it's easy for e.g. Greeks to view USA as a reliable ally? And what about all the people in this forum that'd love to smash EU to bits? Can I ever see these particular people as reliable "allies" either? But that we don't have an alliance of *trust* doesn't mean that we don't have the IMO more important alliance of common goals. Namely that we want to preserve democracy and freedom in each of our continents. That inevitably has produced two generations of Europeans with shallow, bigoted and uninformed opinions about Americans, American culture and our role in the world. Perhaps. But tell me do you think that America isn't creating that stereotype for its own self?There's a big segment of *American* media that glorifies itself in portraying Americans as shallow and uninformed. "Married with Children". "The Simpsons". "Beavis and Butthead". Or I remember when I was a kid, I was seeing an ep of "Saved by the Bell" and was appalled at how savagely chess-players were mocked as opposed to e.g. football athletes. You need more shows like "West Wing" instead, showing intelligent people behaving intelligently. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 5:09:15 PM |
| #46 If you want to read Athens then as the US now, substitute many European countries for Sparta then I'd rather substitute the *actual* enemies of democracy for Sparta: countries like Russia, China, the Islamofascist axis, Castro. And I'd rather substitute Europe Australia and Japan for the *allies*, less or more reluctant in occasion, of Athens. Yes, I basically agree with you on this Aris, but there are two problems we need to address, and quickly. First, and deepest, is that many Americans have lost confidence in countries like France, Germany and Greece as allies. Rantburg doesn't represent all of America, but posting here are many who have lived and worked beside Europeans for decades. And as you see, these people have become deeply angry. Europe as a whole (with notable exceptions) has been inexcusably self-indulgent in its attitudes towards the US. The stereotypical European is inordinately smug in his or her sense of moral and cultural superiority to the US - a smugness Americans increasingly find both unwarranted and offensive. This has multiple consequences. It plays out in over 30 years of unbalanced anti-American propaganda in media, schools and art. That inevitably has produced two generations of Europeans with shallow, bigoted and uninformed opinions about Americans, American culture and our role in the world. I have personally met far too many from the continent who are sure that Americans are fat stupid slobs who barely speak English, much less some other language. The fact that I speak several and have been to the Continent -- and that they have not been to the US, or have only been to places like LA and NY -- doesn't seem to instill any self-doubt whatsoever in these people and their condescending opinions. Second, as a result of those attitudes, many Europeans *are in fact not* allies at all, but are at best neutrals and at worst, as with France in many ways, are working to sabotage, restrict and hurt the US and its perceived interests. Put those together, and I am afraid that it is increasingly hard for many Americans to view European countries as reliable allies at all. That is an unfair stereotype, but it is one that has been caused in great part by Europeans themselves. Those in Europe who delight in the thought of wounding or destroying American culture and power (economic, political, military, cultural) are indeed endangering the West as a whole -- I agree that that is the true scope of the danger. If we are to reverse these two trends and work together, a good place to start is some humility on Europe's part and a focus on the key priorities on the part of Americans. Otherwise, America will indeed suffer the fate of Athens in the 5th century BC. But Europe will suffer Sparta's. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 4:44:03 PM |
| #45 Hmmm....Must be a typo. |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 4:39:54 PM |
| #44 And yet you keep on spelling *all* of them as "Europeeons". Who are you trying to fool? |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 4:35:40 PM |
#43 Ah, so your anti-European bigotry is justified because all Europeans deserve it, because of what some Germans did in WW2.Aris, moron, that is not what I'm saying. I hate Americans that support murderers too. That doesn't mean I hate all Americans. Are you beginning to see the difference? I do not hate all Europeeons. Just the ones that support murderers. |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 4:21:33 PM |
| #42 Ah, so your anti-European bigotry is justified because all Europeans deserve it, because of what some Germans did in WW2. Got it. Pesky details such as that most people alive back then are dead now, or even the fact that other Europeans opposed it and often sacrificed their lives to stop it -- they don't matter. One question however: Would an antisemite be justified in his anti-jewish bigotry because of what happened to the Midianites? I'm expecting an answer in this. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 4:11:48 PM |
#41 What if someone had attacked "the moronic Jews" and other people "snarkily" attacked said someone for using that phrase?? Aris, Moron, as soon as the jews strap on bomb belts and blow up babies on buses, or hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings, or kidnap Olympic athletes, murdering them all, or fire up the ovens and scoop several million corpses in, and on and on and on.....then your equivocation might carry more weight. In the mean time, I still offer up my warm balls for you to suck on while you apologies for those that support murder. |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 3:36:06 PM |
| #40 RKB-Lots to agree with in what you said. I would dispute two items, though: Two peoples or more being alike in terms of economic power does not neatly equate with their viewing the world the same way; otherwise, there wouldn't be a person in the US who sympathizes with Palestinians, and that is obviously false. ICJ may have intended to rule that way based on good principles and justice, but justice demands "...fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law..." (Am. Her. Dic.). There may have been adherence to law, but certainly not to honor or standards. The only standards in this case are double standards (impunity for Palestinian law breaking), and honor? It's pretty hard to apply that word to ANYTHING in that region in the last few years (other than "honor" killings, and that about says it all). |
| Posted by: jules 187 2004-07-16 3:02:20 PM |
| #39 You began the flame war of fellow posters with your snarky post #4. So the phrase "moronic europeeeons" (and all that followed) isn't starting a flame war, but snarkily attacking people that said it *is* starting a flame war? What if someone had attacked "the moronic Jews" and other people "snarkily" attacked said someone for using that phrase?? I suppose you'd again see the "flame war" as being initiated by the latter party, right? Typical. Victory> Aris, moron, did I once say a word about the Dutch specifically? No, you bashed Europeans in their stereotypical entirety. I doubt you are intelligent enough to know that Hague (which the article refers to) is located in Netherlands. If you want to read Athens then as the US now, substitute many European countries for Sparta then I'd rather substitute the *actual* enemies of democracy for Sparta: countries like Russia, China, the Islamofascist axis, Castro. And I'd rather substitute Europe Australia and Japan for the *allies*, less or more reluctant in occasion, of Athens. The Sides of the Global War The culture of Athens survived more or less, because Sparta had no culture worth surviving, same as the Islamofascist axis has no culture worth surviving. But nonetheless Athens lost the Pelopponesean war, and its golden age passed, and what it represented fell to dormancy. I don't want Western civilisation to suffer the same fate, even if eventually our values will resurface to inspire others, same as Athenean values did. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 3:00:12 PM |
| #38 I'm going to side with Aris a bit with regard to the ICJ. Aris says, if I may paraphrase him, that the ICJ had to rule the way it did because that is what a) international law and b) good principles and justice demand. There are a couple of issues here that need untangling, I think. The first is a judgement about the situation and actions of Israel. The second is a judgement about the situation and actions of the Palestinians. And the third is the state of international law, what its scope is and should be and whether it is adequate to deal with current threats and events. On the first, I've commented a bit on my limited experience doing business in the Middle East, with Israel and with a major Arab country. It's hard to get a fix on the situation of the Israelis if you haven't been there: a small, beseiged democratic and 1st world country surrounded by massively larger populations, under continual attacks deliberately perpetrated by people dedicate to erasing Israel as a country and Jews as a people (in many cases). In that situation, Israel uses what she has, ie. technology and military power devised by a hard-working smart populace, to defend herself. The palestinian issue is complex: a poor, poorly educated group of people with a deeply, deeply corrupt leadership which has spurned peace agreements multiple times and whose party constitution still calls for the destruction of Israel despite words from Arafat. OTOH, I've been on the west bank, seen the poverty and how it contrasts with Israeli cities 10 miles away, and understand the despair. In the face of this asymmetric conflict, Europe has chosen by and large to side with the Palestinians. So too have many country leaders whose people are more like the Palestinians than like the Israelis. The EU has long turned a blind eye to the misuse of their funding, both to promote terror attacks and also to enrich Arafat himself. In this environment, it is understandable that many here reject the ICJ's moral authority out of hand. However, a larger problem is at work here. Namely, that the structures of international law and cooperation inherently deal with nation states and not well with non-state entities that serve as proxies for states with aggressive intent. So while I'm sympathetic to Aris' comment about law and principle, I find the ICJ's recent ruling to be lacking in two ways: first, insofar as it persists in refusing to acknowledge the organized non-state-owned (but PLA-supported and encouraged) violence against Israel. And second, in not noting the inherent difficult in ruling on this sort of issue, precisely because of the deliberate confusion regarding responsibility that the PLO, Hamas and other groups have thrown up. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 2:26:38 PM |
| #37 Aris, moron, did I once say a word about the Dutch specifically? No. I commented on Europeeon that supports the muslim murderbots. If you have a problem with me hating nazis/fascists/enablers, you can suck my Jew balls. My whole point was that ALL of Europe is a target. All of the West is a target. Followed by every other non-'Slim entity that the 'slims can destroy. Prove me wrong or, again, suck my jew balls. |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 2:08:55 PM |
| #36 Had it not been for that mess of strategic, tactical and political follies, had Athens *not* attacked a place where it didn't need to attack and made a mess of it as well -- would it have in the end lost the war? The oligarchy that arose during the war with Sparta made a number of mistakes, Sicily being one of them. On the other hand, the fear and envy of the other city-states that erupted in the Peloponnese set the stage for a war that exhausted Sparta and her allies far more than Athens. Athens lost its transient experiment with democracy -- which had shallow roots there in any case -- but Sparta and its allies lost their economies and eventually their autonomy. If you want to read Athens then as the US now, substitute many European countries for Sparta then -- and note, too, that the rigid centralized society of Sparta with its heavily enforced social rules turned out to be deeply brittle, whereas the oligarchy in Athens contributed heavily to the eventual Roman culture that followed it. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 2:07:00 PM |
| #35 Aris, You began the flame war of fellow posters with your snarky post #4. So let me quote you again "Shame on you, Aris[edit]. Shame on you". Aris, like much of the rest Europe, the American free ride and turning the other cheek is over. If you wish to attack, then prepare to defend yourself. What you may think think of me or other Americans no longer matters. We have had 60 years of your whining crap and are now immune to it. I must confess, I don't know as much about homosexuality. Aris, I must bow to your intimate knowledge if it. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 1:54:47 PM |
| #34 ed> You actually confess to trolling and you think that this signifies some sort of victory on your part? I didn't drop out of this argument, it's you who dropped even all pretense at one for sheer flamage. You were being intentionally stupid, intentionally oblivious to sarcasm, you intentionally portrayed yourself as an imbecile -- and you think that this makes you better than *actual* imbeciles, (like Victory)? Atleast they have the excuse of truly being morons. You were just an asshole. And as a sidenote I believe you are wrong -- I hear that ancient Greek homosexuality didn't involve the anus, it mostly involved contact with the thighs and was non-penetrative. But either way, such gibes on your part would much better manage to provoke a homophobe or a nationalist or both. On my part I'm only offended by your bigotry. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 1:32:49 PM |
| #33 Question. If you were Al Queda, would you threaten and target European nations with larger Islamic populations or would you target nations with minimal Islamic populations. My point being, its easier to carry off an attack in areas with larger Islamic populations but its stupid. You will kill more Muslims turning some Muslims against you. You will make life far harder for Muslims and some may resent you for it. But primarily those countries will be won through demographics in a decade or two, an easy victory that could be screwed by threats and premature attacks. It would be much better to hit Nations with low Islamic populations. If things go bad you can fall back on the easier targets. In fact it would be much better to convince the Islamic populations of Scandanavia, Germany to move to France and hurry the demographic shift since the nordic nations won't be a threat and France may wake up and face their problems soon. |
| Posted by: Yank 2004-07-16 1:21:47 PM |
| #32 Aris, Thanks for being my bitch. I always enjoy yanking your pompous chain. I understand you and your attitude quite well, and I enjoy getting under your skin. If you can't hang on a thread, then fold. Pretending to be aggrieved does not work here here, and only results in you being ridden harder the next time. PS> I do believe Greeks invented the "unhealthy fascination with other people's anuses", and are mockingly known far and wide for it. Matter of fact I think that was the first thing Greeks invented, even before Democracy. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 1:17:53 PM |
| #31 ed, I told you to stop before you lost all dignity -- but you chose to go all the way instead. Let alone shame, self-respect or an admission that you misunderstood me, you didn't show even the slightest hint of *aesthetic* considerations: Same as Jen, you not only have an unhealthy fascination with other people's anuses but feel obliged to share that fascination with us. Thanks but no thanks. Victory> I could force you to acknowledge that those moronic Dutch "Europeeons" you insulted as somehow trying to destroy you, are the same ones who are helping you out at Iraq, but that would probably be like forcing Hitler to shake the hand of Jesse Owens: It would no doubt shortcircuit your miniscule brain. Anonymous> Wrong. in every war the side that started and lost the war loose territory, and it's fair. Israel hasn't annexed the West Bank by its own admission. In fact, that the West Bank wasn't part of Israel was recently mentioned in this forum by somebody arguing me against me, another Anonymous fellow I believe. So you can't have it both ways. Has Israel annexed the West Bank, or part of it, or hasn't it? rkb> It's a good example indeed. But though the democracy of Athens was indeed a very worthy thing to defend, and its defeat was a true catastrophe -- the thing you forget is the Sicily preemptive campaign which we studied at length when reading Thucydides at junior high. Had it not been for that mess of strategic, tactical and political follies, had Athens *not* attacked a place where it didn't need to attack and made a mess of it as well -- would it have in the end lost the war? |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 12:48:23 PM |
| #30 I think the ICJ and associated and non-associated institutions ( think UN, Amnesty International, Red Thingy ) have been corrupted by bureaucratic royalty drunk on Marxian ideals and the idea that rights are absolute and carry with them no mantle of responsibility. Just trying to join in on a super-thread before it gets too deep. Sorry, Aris. No trolling for you today. Maybe tomorrow. |
| Posted by: badanov 2004-07-16 12:15:57 PM |
| #29 Aris- Do I have hatred in my heart for the muslims that are trying to kill us and destroy our way of life? Do I have hatred in my heart for those (Eurpeeons included among others) who aid and abet the wholesale slaughter of non-muslims, jooos, gypsies and cripples, methodically over centuries? Yes. Abu hoo hoo. |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 12:01:07 PM |
| #28 << What has Greece done to spread freedom, economic benefit and pluralism, not to mention democracy? Invented it.>> Let's follow that for a moment. The Athenian polis was democratic for less than 100 years, between the era of the tyrannoi who replaced kings, earlier, and the Athenian empire which rapidly became thoroughly controlled by a small the oligarchy after the Peloponnesian war. It's a good example to bring up, because a) Athens was accused of being a unilateralist hegemony after the Athenians saved everybody's necks by defeating the Persians at Thermopylae; b) the Spartans and others then turned on Athens and c) democracy died in Athens rapidly. Democracy is a great idea. Maintaining it is another matter. Defending it against outside and inside threats is hard -- and is the challenge we face right now. It's a continual balancing act, managing security against openness and requiring those who are comfortable due to previous successes to maintain focus and motivation. Greece is not failing that test, but it's not exactly leading the way either IMO. |
| Posted by: rkb 2004-07-16 11:53:41 AM |
| #27 "So what has Greece done to spread freedom?" Produced me. This has got to be the laugh of the day! There's a picture of AK in the dictionary by both the terms "enslavement" and "useful idiot." As for Greece's legacy to us, we have Plato's Republic and we'll have to make do with that. |
| Posted by: Jen 2004-07-16 11:09:58 AM |
| #26 Oh and Holland is being punished here by AQ because they support the Coalition in Iraq. Aris, with his EU hatred of nationalism, would condemn them--like Jacques Chirac--for acting "unilaterally." The fact that the Hague is the seat of the ICJ wins them points with the killers and probably explains why the terrorists are only threatening to attack the "softer" targets...and they got a warning instead of just having one of their people taken hostage. |
| Posted by: Jen 2004-07-16 11:05:37 AM |
| #25 "The ICJ had no choice according to the international law it defended than to make the ruling it did. Whether you feel that said international law means diddly-squat or not is a *different* issue, but the court was obliged to nonetheless follow it." Wrong. in every war the side that started and lost the war loose territory, and it's fair. Just look at Germany or Romenia in WW2. |
| Posted by: Anonymous5666 2004-07-16 11:05:06 AM |
| #24 Aris, while I think that it is possible to argue in particular cases that human rights organizations promote what is right and lawful, IMHO when you look at the big picture, it is not that simple. If you look at the history of the last 30 years, and going back even further, you find that there is a consistent theme of liberal-oriented movements and organizations being unwittingly and wittingly allied with those who wish to destroy democracy and the western way of life. The old Soviet term for this was "useful idiots". After the end of the cold war we found out a lot about how deeply western peace movements and similar organizations were penetrated and funded by the KGB. We find out now that the ISM, which follows the classic pattern of the older peace movements, is a Palestinian Communist Party creation. The UN was for decades a forum for anti-western Soviet propaganda. I believe that the NGOs, including the human rights organizations, seek to undermine the west and its institutions. IMHO the ICJ is another in the long line of this left-wing tradition, insofar as it undermines the sovereignty of the democratic nation-state. |
| Posted by: virginian 2004-07-16 11:03:41 AM |
| #23 Aris, It has been a pleasure riding your ass. But I see that my pumping you has made you sore beyond endurance. Let's do it again next time when you recover. And bring Vaseline. So here is $20. You earned it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 11:03:35 AM |
| #22 And just how I am a racist, Aristotle? Muslims aren't a race. |
| Posted by: Jen 2004-07-16 11:02:00 AM |
| #21 ed, You are the only one who didn't understand that I was being sarcastic when I said that every insult towards the Dutch is justified because they commited the crime of being Europeans. It's only you who didn't understand that I was intentionally copying Victory's attitude in bitter mockery. So quit it while you still have a shred of dignity left. And read this thread again, from the start, *carefully*. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 10:58:37 AM |
| #20 You so funny :^) |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 10:57:04 AM |
| #19 Oh, and as a sidenote: "So what has Greece done to spread freedom?" Produced me. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 10:53:30 AM |
| #18 So you make a hostile, contemptuous and racist remark directed at the Dutch who don't hold your view, then blame Jen, Victory for your action. Nice. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 10:51:20 AM |
| #17 oh great, another 84 comment thread.... |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-07-16 10:49:04 AM |
| #16 ed> Yes, it's indeed an expression of EXTREME underlying hostility and contempt towards all the racist fucks in this forum, Jen, Victory, so forth, who actually hold such opinions for real. I've never hidden that hostility and contempt. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 10:47:19 AM |
| #15 the fact that the ICJ didn't reference Israel's need for security at all It did. Quite explicitely the ICJ referenced Israel's need for security. You either lie or are yourself misinformed. Go here and search for "security" or "needs of national security". BA> Blaming the ICJ for the bombings that Palestinians commited, you are falling yourself in the sin of blaming the people that provided the excuse instead of the actual terrorists. The ICJ had no choice according to the international law it defended than to make the ruling it did. Whether you feel that said international law means diddly-squat or not is a *different* issue, but the court was obliged to nonetheless follow it. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 10:45:27 AM |
| #14 Yes, I was talking about something more recent than 2500 years ago. Something since Greek independence from the Turks would have been nice. So what has Greece done to spread freedom? Calling the Dutch Europeeon untermenschen is not sarcasm, but an expression of underlying hostility and contempt. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 10:42:38 AM |
| #13 some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful." the fact that the ICJ didn't reference Israel's need for security at all, the fact that the ICJ says that in this case, because Israel is attacked by terrorists and not by a state, makes their decision so biased as to make it easy, and right, to dismiss. It is a mockery of anything resembling justice. The right to life trumps the right to improved quality of life every time. Well, except where Israeli lives are involved, apparently. |
| Posted by: PlanetDan 2004-07-16 10:36:09 AM |
| #12 I'm usually not with a lot of what LH and Aris say, but they do make a point. We need to separate the COUNTRY from the ICJ (bunch of UN f#cktards in my book). Aris, I do disagree with your point about the Hague not blowing up busses. While technically correct, they did aid & abet the Paleos, who right around the ruling was issued, blew up some more Joos just to make a point. While I do like to separate those who ACTUALLY commit the crime from those that don't..we all know that ruling only "emboldened" the Paleos to go on another rampage. And for the record, the ICJ is supposed to rule only on cases b/w COUNTRIES (of which the P.A. is NOT one) when BOTH countries come to it for mediation. In other words (similar to the atheist father/Pledge case here in the US), this court had NO jurisdiction on the matter, as one of the parties to the case had NO STANDING on the matter. |
| Posted by: BA 2004-07-16 10:33:13 AM |
| #11 Ed> What has Greece done to spread freedom, economic benefit and pluralism, not to mention democracy? Invented it. But if you are talking about *recently*, much less than Netherlands has done. Which is why I like Netherlands (to the extent that I know it) much more than I like Greece. You probably need to seriously brush up on your understanding of sarcasm. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 10:32:53 AM |
| #10 Aris, You sure seem to have a stick up your ass against countries who dare to defy your German and French masters. But I can understand, though not sympathize, when the entire news diet of you and your countrymen consist of anti-American propaganda. What has Greece done to spread freedom, economic benefit and pluralism, not to mention democracy? I would also like to end my post with a "Thanks Greece", but I can't |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 10:28:53 AM |
| #9 Liberalhawk> Theres really no call for bashing them. Sure there is, Liberalhawk: They are Europeans. Haven't you been paying attention? The Dutch may have more than a thousand troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but that doesn't take away from their fundamental status as Europeeon untermenschen worthy of every contempt and insult. And Jen and "Victory", it's not the Dutch nor the court at Hague that have been blowing up buses, no matter how much you want to pretend about it so as to confuse the issue. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 10:11:31 AM |
| #8 actually the netherlands has been one of the stronger supportes of Israel within the EU. Now I admit thats relative, but theyre no France or Belgium. And yes, they have supported the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq, and have troops on the ground there. Theres really no call for bashing them. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-07-16 10:01:40 AM |
#7 And, Doctor, the Hague's so-called "support of the Paleos" wasn't done to help anyone's "standing". Unlike what the people in this forum think some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful.Blowing up buses filled with women, children, and old men. Now that's legal. This is about Jew hatred, only now the cowardly bigots hide behind the claims of hatred for Israel and her "oppressive policies". I guess you feel the Jews are too harsh on the people who have vowed to murder and drive them into the sea. Abu hoo hoo. At least they aren't stuffing the 'slims into the ovens, Europeeon style. Word. |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 9:48:12 AM |
| #6 "some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful." I see. So it's right and lawful to try and make the Holy Land Judenrein by means of terrorist, jihadi murder? Thanks for enlightening those of us in this forum who thought it was unconscionable. |
| Posted by: Jen 2004-07-16 9:45:54 AM |
| #5 you forgot to close your tag Aris (/naive) |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-07-16 9:41:48 AM |
| #4 ed> Don't you know that every "Europeeeon" is a moronic enemy of America? Shame on you, ed. Shame on you: Letting facts get in the way of blind prejudice. We don't need no stinkin' facts. And, Doctor, the Hague's so-called "support of the Paleos" wasn't done to help anyone's "standing". Unlike what the people in this forum think some decisions are indeed made based on is believed to be right and lawful. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-16 9:41:03 AM |
| #3 I think the Dutch have been one of the good guys. They are providing a large contingent of troops and help, and are not the ones throwing roadblocks in our way for commerical or political gain. They also have a huge Muslim problem. For instance Rotterdam may become the first Muslim majority city in Europe. Thanks Holland. |
| Posted by: ed 2004-07-16 9:22:08 AM |
| #2 Moronic Europeeons. All of western civilization is a target in this war. Even the cheese eating, murdering 'Slim supporting, anti-American, bastard French whores. They may think that they are not a target, alas, they are indeed. If the 'Slims had their way, it seems that they would kill and/or convert the West, and then move on to kill/convert any non-'Slim left on the planet. |
| Posted by: Victory Now Please 2004-07-16 9:12:10 AM |
| #1 Apparently The Hague's support of the Paleos hasn't helped their standing. What a surprise . . . |
| Posted by: The Doctor 2004-07-16 8:58:52 AM |
