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International-UN-NGOs | |||||
Court: Israeli fence violates int'l law, must be dismantled | |||||
2004-07-09 | |||||
Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization have prepared their public relations and diplomatic offensives in anticipation of the decision. The PLO representative in the United Nations, Nasser al-Qidwa, and diplomats from Arab countries at the UN, plan to request an emergency session of the General Assembly where the results of the court's decision will be presented. It is expected that the Palestinians will seek operative application of the court's conclusions, in case Israel refuses to adopt the recommendations of the International Court. Israel has already prepared its response, assuming that the court will be critical of Israel. Israel will seek to block the issue from reaching the Security Council, with the assistance of the United States. Israel is also hoping that most EU countries will not support the Palestinian move as they opposed bringing the matter before the ICJ.
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Posted by:Steve White |
#102 For people who like to read stuff and learn things: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/boundtoc.html http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org |
Posted by: therien 2004-07-09 11:47:34 AM |
#101 For people who like to read stuff and learn things: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/boundtoc.html http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org |
Posted by: therien 2004-07-09 11:47:34 AM |
#100 For people who like to read and find things out: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org |
Posted by: therien 2004-07-09 11:45:02 AM |
#99 For people who like to read and find things out: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_geomaps.php http://www.google.com/custom?q=green+line&cof=S%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%3BGL%3A0%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBIMG%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2Fimages%2Faiceback2.jpg%3BT%3A%23000000%3BAWFID%3Ae78760325e96262f%3B&domains=www.us-israel.org&sitesearch=www.us-israel.org |
Posted by: therien 2004-07-09 11:45:02 AM |
#98 You think that will stop me? |
Posted by: Antiwar 2004-07-09 9:06:04 AM |
#97 Frank you have never seen my face so you make no sense my response to it is cue Homer Simpson style laughte. Raptor Withdrawing from the Occupied Territories would be a start. Not all Jews are mired in the evil of Zionism. Many who are not Jewish are. Djohn you sound like your braindead hero Dumbya Allahhateme Oh if you only had a brain. BUT YOU CANNOT SEE THE WIZARD THE WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ How many replies will I get today? BWAAHAHA |
Posted by: Antiwar 2004-07-09 8:49:09 AM |
#96 FUCK YOU YOU ARE ALL ZIONAZIS HITLER WOULD BE PROUD OF YOU YOU ADVOCATE TREATING THE PALESTINIANS IN THE SAME WAY HITLER TREATED THE JEWS YOU ARE GENOCIDAL BY PROXY. |
Posted by: Antiwar 2004-07-09 6:20:28 AM |
#95 Virginian, No, its a war of attempted annihilation on the part of the Arabs, and a refusal to be annihilated on the part of Israel. Nothing mutual about it. |
Posted by: trailing wife 2004-07-09 11:07:53 PM |
#94 Israel is currently experiencing a momentary reprieve in what is essentially a war of mutual annihilation. Up until now the Arabs have not had the means to destroy Israel. But that situation will not last forever. Perhaps the final showdown will come as early as the time when Iran develops a few nukes. From the perspective of people living under that threat, the ruling of the court must seem, well, shall we say, of a lower priority of concern. |
Posted by: virginian 2004-07-09 10:10:24 PM |
#93 The Israelis would have never constructed a national security protective barrier if the Arabs controlled those wishing to kill themselves and as many Jews as possible in the process! I say until the Arabs can stop their own terrorist gangs from butchering Israelis, build it higher, deeper and electrify it! |
Posted by: Mark Espinola 2004-07-09 9:52:58 PM |
#92 yes I have |
Posted by: OJ Simpson 2004-07-09 8:52:31 PM |
#91 Not asleep yet. I tend to be a nightowl. Socrates> The problem isn't nicknames themselves, the problem is shifting identities. I have maintained a constant identity (which is easy since it's my real one) and never pretended to be someone else to create support for my views, nor have I ever anonymously mocked anyone, so I expect (but have not always received) the same courtesy from others. Apologies for singling you out but the use of the name "Socrates" soon after a discussion of my own name ("Aristotle") made me believe that this was a case of a shifting identity yet again, meant to mock anonymously from a previous regular participant. On your point 1, no it doesn't really matter -- this was me being annoyed at Jen again. Point 3, I agree that the Palestinians have the biggest share of the blame by far -- still the settlements are an issue that is going to have to be resolved before a true peace comes along, even if the Palestinians became *saints*. And now for your insistent Point 4 --- that's a quite dishonest trick-question on your part. I did *not* ask you to do anything that I personally saw as meaning the sacrifice of even a single Israeli life. So it's both manipulative and demeaning to say in retort to my arguments "Would you be willing to sacrifice your life in order to make another gesture for the palestinians. Until you answer that I assume it is a little unfair on your side to ask me to do this thing again." I never asked that of you. Until I've actually made such a demand, it is more than a little affair to pretend that I did. This kind of question that assumes stuff not in evidence is only answered by the sound of crickets chirping. Have you stopped beating your wife? |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 8:15:23 PM |
#90 Aris, you may have gone to sleep by now but I at least ecpect you to honestly answer #4 on my list ! would you or wouldn't you die for a pali ????????? Aris ? Aris ? ARISSSSSSSSSS ?????? |
Posted by: Socrates of Jerusalem 2004-07-09 7:51:14 PM |
#89 One is reminded when the Nazis and Heydrich headed INTERPOL...bad guys CAN take over int'l organizations...just say no to entangling alliances... |
Posted by: borgboy 2004-07-09 7:45:41 PM |
#88 Socrates raises a difficult issue we all deal with to one degree or another: how can a liberal society (in the sense of openness, representative government and rule of law) fend off terrorism effectively without losing its soul in the process? It's an uneven struggle since the terrorists have no such ideals to constrain their actions. Aris' memory is good (at least regarding my comments on Turkey LOL) so I'm sure he also remembers my comments about experiences doing business in the Middle East in the 80s - specifically in 1987, when Palestinian terror networks bombed airport ticketing counters several times, hijacked planes and killed several Americans in cold blood, at random. He probably also remembers my saying that there were many things about Israel and its choices I didn't much care for, but that I deeply understand the reasons for those choices. Still do. |
Posted by: rkb 2004-07-09 7:39:38 PM |
#87 Aris, Good questions which I will answer in the order they were asked. 1) I am for real, I am Israely, and indeed I use a nickname and not my real name (I am ccationally known here as the "Dodo" or sometimes when I am in the right mood as the "Elder of Zion") I do not see any problem in using nicks as long as I am honest in what I say and I do not mean to troll or mock people) So now you know who I am and I even promise not to use any other nick so you know I am for real. BTW what would you like as proof of my identity, a copy of my drivers licence ?? Does it really matter ?? Why should I lie to you, a total stranger? 2) Sorry for the misspelling of the spanish term though I think my point was clear enough. 3)I will tell you exactly what guarantees that if the palestinians truely oppose the beastes among them they will get a fair treatment. I personally (as an Israely voter)guarantee that. I voted for Yizhak Rabin and the labour party in the hope of seeing the Oslo agreement go through. After that, and before the second intifadah started, I voted for Ehud Barak and the Labour party with the hope of reaching some sort of reasonable agreement and a peacefull arrangement of two countries for two people. At that time I meant and believed that every word of those agreements should be implemented. After Arafat decided to use violence again I have reevaluated the situation and now I dont believe a single word uttered by the Palestinian leadership. Consequently I voted for Sharon and I intend to continue doing so in the future. In my book, the burden of proof now lies in their domain. I am not willing to make a single concession on blind faith any more. I now demand that they show clearly and for an extended period of time that they have abandoned violence as a means to settle the dispute. Since I know that I was responsible (together with more than 50% of Israely voters) for electing a government that wanted a two-state solution, I know that we can togeter repeat this provided we are convinced that they have truely changed their ways. Neverthless, looking at the palestinians I am very pessimistic about anything good coming from their direction in the forseeable future. I deeply suspect that the settlements are not the real issue here. (remember we have already dismantled all the settlements in Sinai and returned all the land to the Egyptians). The real problem is that they are full of hatred and they hope they can swindle us again and again until they manage to destroy us. 4) You still have not answered my question would you Aris Katzaris be willing to sacrifice your life in order to make another (perhaps futile?) gesture for the palestinians ?? Until you answer that I assume it is a little unfair on your side to ask me to do this thing again. So please consider your response seriously before you answer as I have done with my voting in the past, and as I was willing to pay a price as a direct consequence of my vote, a price that I am now refusing to pay again barring irrefutable proof (in deeds and not words)of good intentions on the palestinian's side. |
Posted by: Socrates of Jerusalem 2004-07-09 7:07:42 PM |
#86 Thanks, Aris. |
Posted by: RWV 2004-07-09 6:58:43 PM |
#85 President Bush told the Paleos that they weren't getting a state until they abandoned their pursuit of terror. (And they never will, so NO, THEY'RE NEVER GETTING A STATE.) And the Israelis have already dismantled over 80 settlements with 21 left to go...so that the Paleo areas can be completely isolated from Israel with the help of the fence. The success of the fence speaks for itself..and I might take my tired middle-aged butt over there to defend it for the Israelis, too, if the PA gets the UN and the EU to try and take it down! AM YISRAEL CHAI! |
Posted by: Jen 2004-07-09 6:36:25 PM |
#84 I think it's spelled cojones. As a basic note, I'm not interested in replying to anonymous people with shifting names. Is "Socrates of Jerusalem" your one-and-only-nick or are you just using it to mock and you'll abandon it to pick up another afterwards? And since too much fuss has been made by rampant idiots who've doubted my identity, I'm free to discount every tidbit of personal experience you share here, until you provide me proof of being who you are, I guess. But tell me -- what guarantees would the Arabs have that grabbing those pitchforks and getting rid of Arafat would mean not only that the wall would go down, but they'd be allowed an actual state of their own with actual borders? Personally, would you be willing to dismantle the Ariel settlement (and all the rest of them) for *anything* the Palestinians would do? I'm not talking about the "luxury of treating the palestinians with justice and according to international Law". I'm saying that one day you're gonna have to decide if all the talk about two-states is something you mean or not. The settlements go against that. They were built for the exact opposite reason. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 6:18:52 PM |
#83 Aris, I think your basic mistake is that you think that we Israelis have the luxury of treating the palestinians with logic justice and according to "international Law". You are wrong my friend, those times are over. Because of the atrocities they have perpetrated we now have no choice but to inflict unavoidable calamities on them, including on the "silent majority" who are not included in the "lunatic fringe". Because this silent majority has not utterly condemned, jailed and stopped the abominable fringe within them, they have now lost in my eyes any right they had to be treated justly. Damn, our previous attempts to peacefully settle things with them had nealy cost me my personal precious (at least to me) life, as one of these """heros""" exploded himself near my house ! In my mind these people do not deserve a fair treatment untill they rise up on their own initiative, grab some pitchforks and drive Arafat and his thugs out of their land. Until they aquire some cochones(balls) to do just that, the wall stays !!!! Please tell me Aris, would you be willing to die personally in order to treat some palestinians fairly ?????? I am not ready yet. |
Posted by: Socrates of Jerusalem 2004-07-09 5:59:47 PM |
#82 all the Greeks I've met, 50% were named Aristotle and the other 50% were named Spiro or Plato I very much doubt it. Spiro is common enough, but I've never known a single person called "Plato". I think you lie. they are all evil, but chauvinistic nationalists Nationalism is more often just like racism: a question of blind stupidity and ignorance rather than intentional evil. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 5:26:07 PM |
#81 Jen> I don't believe there are many 12-year old in Pacatello, Idaho that have email addresses in Greek ISPs and Greek universities, and speak perfect Greek. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 5:20:31 PM |
#80 Of all the Greeks I've met, 50% were named Aristotle and the other 50% were named Spiro or Plato. But they all hated Turkey. Ergo, in AKA's world, they are all evil, but chauvinistic nationalists! Read Plato's Republic again, why don't you?!? |
Posted by: Jen 2004-07-09 5:15:16 PM |
#79 "Aris" spelled Alpha Rho Eta Sigma, which english speakers most commonly transcribe as "Ares", same as the god of war. I prefer to transcribe it Aris, because "Eta" (in modern Greek atleast) is pronounced as a short-i. In my case however it's short for "Aristotelis", my maternal grandfather's name, which is the Greek version of that name which in English is usually called "Aristotle". It's coincidence that my last name also ends in "-aris". But in Greek it doesn't really rhyme because my first name is accented in the first syllable, while "Katsaris" is accented in the last. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 5:11:55 PM |
#78 *Katsi*, this is the internet--You could be a pimply, obnoxious 12-year-old named Andy Panda with a permissive mother that lives in Pacatello, Idaho. As Antiwar often says when she's not spewing "suck dog dick," WHATEVER. You're still wrong about the Israeli fence...and lots of other things. |
Posted by: Jen 2004-07-09 5:11:41 PM |
#77 Aris-What is the etymology of your name, may I ask? Did you know that the breakdown of your name Aris Kats-Aris leaves the initials AKA, meaning also known as in English? |
Posted by: jules 187 2004-07-09 5:05:37 PM |
#76 Jen> Every Greek you've met is a nationalist then. How many *liberal* Greeks have you known? And by liberal I don't mean left-wing, I mean liberal as opposed to authoritarian. People that preferred Manos and Andrianopoulos to Papathemelis, Karatzaferis, or Papariga? |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 4:58:40 PM |
#75 ex-lib> I was just recently accused of having a bias (an understandable one according to rkb :-) AGAINST Turkey. Ofcourse in that thread I had to remind people that I had been recently accused of being too *pro*-Turkey. Now the wheel turns again and I am accused again of being too nice about Turkey, so I have to remind y'all that I was recently accused of being biased against it. :-) And just so I answer your question -- as I once had to tell to Jen when *she* was questioning my ethnicity because I wasn't fitting in her mental image of the stereotypical Greek, yes I'm ethnically Greek, born of Greek parents in a Greek city, and still living on Greek soil. I have travelled (but never resided) throughout the rest of Europe, but have never been in Turkey, nor even known personally any Turks. Shipman> I must confess I can't know the specifics -- since I don't know where exactly the attacks happened (walled, non-walled areas, West Bank, Israel proper, etc, etc) I can't even start estimating say how much the bits that have been built so far have been helping. But yeah, my own guess had been that the targetted killings of Hamas leaders had had more to do with the reduction in bombings. So that's a point to you, I guess. And sorry for the delay to respond, but I decided to go watch a movie instead of spending all my time in the forum. :-) |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 4:51:11 PM |
#74 I agree, ex-lib! Every Greek I've ever met hates the Turks with a purple passion but not "*our*" Aris...! |
Posted by: Jen 2004-07-09 4:42:44 PM |
#73 Aris gets a lot of Rantburg readers blood up, that is for sure. I find his posts interesting as they reflect the Euro opinion of what is going on. I don't see the point of bomb throwing at a guy who does listen to reason/is not antiwar. |
Posted by: remote man 2004-07-09 4:27:45 PM |
#72 regarding Turkey, I wonder how well their anti corruption campaign has been going. |
Posted by: mhw 2004-07-09 4:24:42 PM |
#71 An observation; Aris repeatedly holds up Turkey as his "shining star" example of what's right in his world. He also has a huge beef with Greece's pseudo-religious "Orthodox" politics. Always the same story. Is Aris a Turk raised in Greece? Other than that, he can be interesting at times. |
Posted by: ex-lib 2004-07-09 3:55:48 PM |
#70 Probably the IC of J's decision is fairly consistent with international law given the assumptions the court made (the court I think ruled the territories were 'occupied land' which I believe to be the wrong classification since the territories were captured from Jordan which itself occupied them without international sanction). The problem here is that international law is utterly useless as a means of combatting islamic terrorism. Just like the nearly universal condemnation of bombing of the Osirak (it was called the O'Chiraq by some at the time because of the French $ involved) reactor, the IC of J says more about the condemners than the condemned. |
Posted by: mhw 2004-07-09 3:31:27 PM |
#69 The fence hasn't been built yet, idiot. Only bits of it have been built and *those* bits aren't yet insanely meandering. The insanely meandering part is yet to come. Aris, they've been building the important parts first, and even it small length has allowed IDF security forces to concentrate on the areas where the wall ain't. There has been an huge drop in successful attacks... do you figure it's the the wall or the targeted killings? |
Posted by: Shipman 2004-07-09 2:11:49 PM |
#68 Aris: Just because a wall is "meandering" doesn't mean it's militarily useless. The pockets could be used to create fire sacks in case of an attack and the salients could be used to launch raids or attacks. Also, the Islmists may be a "lunatic fringe" but never underestimate the effectiveness of a lunatic fringe in a socially fragmented population transitioning to modernism. Certainly you've heard of the Bolsheviks, Nazis, Facists, and the Japanese military clique? |
Posted by: 11A5S 2004-07-09 1:46:24 PM |
#67 A fair amount, actually. It means that Israel acknowledges those in the buffer zones do not and won't have any allegiance to Israel as a nation, unlike the (putative) allegiance of Arabs who are Israeli citizens. The third option - live in Israel w/o citizenship, has been proven to be too dangerous for Israel to allow. I know several Israelis who regret that. |
Posted by: rkb 2004-07-09 1:28:06 PM |
#66 The Gaza and West Bank Paleos do not live in Israel. They live in buffer zones against Arab invasions. What's the difference between living in Israel and living in "buffer zones", besides the fact that the people in the "buffer zones" don't have the rights they'd have if they were living in Israel? |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 12:56:36 PM |
#65 Anonymous' own implied comparison was between Turkey's treatment of the Kurds and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Posted by: Aris Katsaris 20% of Israel is Palestinian and fares a lot better under Jews than the Kurds do under Turks.The Gaza and West Bank Paleos do not live in Israel. They live in buffer zones against Arab invasions. Arabs warred against Israel once too often. Yet the world's meshuganas say there should be no penalty when they lose. That Israel should just retreat back to the Greenline. So the Mohammedans can build and equip a better terrorist base against the Jews. |
Posted by: Anonymous5072 2004-07-09 12:43:44 PM |
#64 Frank G> Keep in mind that I never once said or implied that the Palestinian Authority is one-bit democratic. Anonymous' own implied comparison was between Turkey's treatment of the Kurds and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2004-07-09 12:35:39 PM |
#63 Sort of true for the moment only. But Jews ruling a Mohammedan land (Israel) will never be accepted. This is going on right now and much closer to the Muslim heartland of Arabia. (Mecca and Medina) http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=4/b/iii/archives/280720035 What the West fails to understand, however, is that the Palestinians are not truly driven by the letter of international law, but rather by another force – Islam. The tenets of Islam will never allow the Arabs to view Israel as an entity that may actually have a legitimate claim to the land, but is nonetheless willing to trade that claim for peaceful coexistence. Israel must, according to Islam, be viewed as the conqueror of a land that once was, and therefore must always be, under the Dar el-Islam – the House of Islam. This is the starting point, in the Arabs’ minds, of any negotiations with Israel, irrespective of historical right or the letter of international law. With this in mind, it is little wonder that the Palestinians – 10 years into the peace process – continue to view Israel as an enemy and teach their children to do the same. Nor should it be surprising that the Palestinians view violent acts of brutality against the Israeli conqueror as a perfectly legitimate means of regaining a land that - while it was never a sovereign Palestinian Arab entity - was once firmly in the grasp of Islam. |