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Europe
Germans and French Object to Death Penalty for Saddam
2004-07-02
EFL
Germany and France, two of the most vocal anti-war opponents, strongly stated their opposition without exception to the death penalty and called on Iraqi authorities to ensure Saddam a fair trial.
After WWII weren’t some Nazi’s executed after trials at a place called Nuremberg? As for vigilantes, didn’t the French summarily execute collaborators beacuse ther traitors associated themselves and benefited from the reign of an regime dedicated to racial extermination?
  • In Berlin, the government’s top human rights official, Claudia Roth, criticized Baghdad’s move to reinstate capital punishment, which was suspended during the U.S. occupation. "To start out this way does not send a good signal," Roth told The Associated Press. "I think it would have been a signal of democratic strength had they not reinstated the death penalty in Iraq."
    Wouldn’t it be the highest form of democracy if the Iraqi people voted on how to execute Sadaam?
  • France called on Iraqi justice officials to hold a trial that conforms to principles of international law, and the government reiterated its opposition to the execution of convicts.
    We envision a world where only the innocent will be subject to execution.
The 25-member European Union intends to let Iraq know of its opposition to the death penalty, said Emma Udwin, external relations spokeswoman for the European Commission. But though capital punishment is outlawed across the continent, attitudes hardened farther east among the EU’s newer members, where support for the war was strong.
  • Latvian Foreign Ministry spokesman Rets Plesums said that whatever happened to Saddam after his trial was a matter of concern for Iraq, not the Baltic state. "We are hoping that the new Iraqi courts will conduct the trial as fairly as possible, but I don’t think our government will offer an opinion about what happens to Saddam Hussein," he said. "It’s not our business."
  • Latvia, a recent newcomer also to NATO, ardently backed the U.S.-led invasion and contributed more than 100 soldiers to the coalition after fighting ended last year.
  • Poland, another supporter of the war, offered a similar view. Poland just decided to extend its troop deployment of 2,400 soldiers in Iraq until Dec. 31. "Our reaction is obvious. This is a sovereign decision of an independent court and of the Iraqis themselves," said Boguslaw Majewski, spokesman for Poland’s Foreign Ministry. Roman Kuzniar, a political scientist at the Warsaw University, said the list of crimes committed by Saddam Hussein "would justify the death penalty." Poland had capital punishment before ousting the Communist government in 1989, then eliminated it to join the EU.
  • Turkey, a Muslim nation with aspirations to join the EU one day, formally ended executions as part of its bid for membership. But many Turks still feel capital punishment is justified in some cases. "The conscience of the people will not be satisfied if he doesn’t face the death penalty," said Burhan Kuzu, a top lawmaker from Turkey’s governing Justice and Development Party. "If they give the death penalty to him, this decision will not disturb me."
    Hasn’t Romania joined the EU? I guess the EU recipe for future members that are currently subjugated is:
    1. Burst your bonds
    2. Brutally hack your ex-dictator.
    3. Renounce capital punishment so that you can part polite society.
BTW - I am against the death penalty, but I don’t plan to argue for Sadaam to be spared until I visit Hillah and listen to the family of the victims. They might present some valid points.

I'm not against the death penalty. The EU countries are making the (probably mistaken) assumption that they'll never have another figure like Sammy arise. Somehow the fact that their victims weren't given the opportunity to argue over the death penalty doesn't count: in Iraq, Rwanda, Sudan, Bosnia and a dozen other places the merciless can now be deemed deserving of mercy. I just don't buy it.
Posted by:Super Hose

#26  As a convert to Catholism, I try to stick close to the plan as well. My feeling on the death penalty is usually - why the heck would you want to let some punk like Timothy McVey off easy by killing him. Make him sleep on a concrete slab and commiserate with Mr. Jingles until he is 120 years old.
With Sadaam, there is a strong probablity that hostages will be taken and threatened as a bargainning chip to gain his release. I don't think that even the Pope would argue against liquidating the butcher of Baghdad by that rationale.
Let the man be killed tastefully, though. All Pay-Per-View net proceeds should go to the family's of his victims.
It would be fun to have a pool on the execution method. I think the Vegas odds will be pretty long on the "lethal injection" option. Personally I'm hoping for the Mare of Steel.
Posted by: Old Spook   2004-07-03 12:44:59 AM  

#25  Well, good news for me and you Jarhead:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the death penalty is possible in cases of extreme gravity.

NOWHERE in the Catechism or in any statement from the Pope does it say the death penalty is "immoral." It says that the death penalty is not normally necessary to preserve the lives of the innocent, but the Catechism acknowledges that there are times it may be necessary.

The whole of Catholic tradition consistently affirms the legitimacy of capital punishment. Pope John Paul II's restrictions on its imposition, codified in the Latin "editio typica" of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is difficult to understand, not least because it fails to take account of the doctrine of expiation, one of the pillars on which the legitimacy of the death penalty traditionally rested.

Given this, I beleive Saddam, like the Nuremburg defendants, qualifies as an extreme case as laid out in the Catechism and in the writings of Aquinas (The most authoritative Doctor of the Church on this) - and that whether to forgive or execute lies with the legitimate governing authority of Iraq with the welfare of its people in mind as well as the gravity and sheer mass of the crimes against humanity comitted by Saddam and his regime.

So, now I and other Catholics can faithfully say "String the bastard up!"
Posted by: OldSpook   2004-07-02 11:18:36 PM  

#24  As a willfully ignorant pro-choice Catholic I have no problem w/the Iraqi's frying this *sshole if they choose to. His fate is in the hands of the Almighty.
Posted by: Jarhead   2004-07-02 10:21:59 PM  

#23  Um hmm. And HOW MANY TIMES has France and Germany condemned Saudi Arabia for its hundreds of beheadings every year?
Posted by: Ptah   2004-07-02 9:59:11 PM  

#22  This puts me in a tight spot regarding the death penalty (as a Catholic). Unlike Kerry, I'm not Catholic just when its convenient.

Initially, I *must* back the Church's position - and oppose the death penalty when applied broadly. But it pains me to do so in this case.

The good thing is that the Bishops do call for an *INFORMED* conscience - unlike the willful ignorance displayed by so-called "pro choice" Catholics.

I do believe that there exist doctrines which do support execution of unrepentant evildoers, and thats where I need to research.

As for Iraq and Saddam, I expect that a swift fair trial, a confrontation by his victims, and letting them dispose of him would be poetic justice - and in line with Islamic Justice (now THERE is an oxymoron).
Posted by: OldSpook   2004-07-02 6:08:31 PM  

#21  What exactly is the composition of the court and who decides the verdict - judge, judges or juries? My fear lies in not knowing their motivation. If justice is their goal, then the facts will speak for themselves and he is going down. If a fat bank account in Switzerland is their goal, then the worst is possible depending on who is doing the payola.
Posted by: Zpaz   2004-07-02 4:36:01 PM  

#20  A dead Saddam will be both a martyr and a lesson. A live and imprisoned Saddam will be a cause.

Well said buddy. I am going to write that one down.
Posted by: Zpaz   2004-07-02 4:29:24 PM  

#19  A dead Saddam will be both a martyr and a lesson. A live and imprisoned Saddam will be a cause. France and Germany have both killed leaders in their pasts, and the ideals that those leaders had have ultimately faded (anti-Semitism is a bit of an exception, but it was around before Hitler). How dare they not allow Iraq the same chance at dealing with its wounded past! Forget about enlightened principles - seeing the man who terrorized so many, who was a larger-than-life figure, hanging by a noose, stone-cold dead, is the first step towards healing.
Posted by: The Doctor   2004-07-02 4:14:53 PM  

#18  In my worst nightmare, the Iraqi's acquit him or he escapes/gets let out the side door.

They'd have to be absolutely out of their minds to acquit the guy. He has too much blood on his hands for his countryment to ignore. Now as for the French and the Germans, well, it would appear that the amount of blood spilled by Saddam just isn't enough for them....
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama   2004-07-02 4:08:55 PM  

#17  Considering all the embargo-breaking and bribery that went on between Frwance and Saddam, I'm surprised ChIraq doesn't want to push the switch himself - I notice China and Russia are noticably absent in the calls to keep him alive.
Posted by: Mercutio   2004-07-02 3:39:39 PM  

#16  Paul:The Iraqis are a sovereign nation again. It is not the business of the US, UK, AoW, the Mariannas, or anyone else as to what happens to Saddam.

I disagree. We just fought a war to remove him. In my worst nightmare, the Iraqi's acquit him or he escapes/gets let out the side door. If he were to walk free he would be back in power within a week. Then what? Do we do the whole war again? We have a vested interest in seeing that he not only does not see the light of day, but that its outright "lights out" for our boy in the fine Armani jacket.
Posted by: Zpaz   2004-07-02 3:31:45 PM  

#15  Well you can say one thing....

Once bought, they stay bought.

I think Iraq should send all their murders and terrorists to France and Germany. Let them take care of them.

The good news is that Iraq is re-imposing the death penalty.
Posted by: CrazyFool   2004-07-02 1:08:47 PM  

#14  This -- and the war generally (remember the 9/11 plotter getting like 3 days in prison per murder from a German court?) -- is the reductio ad absurdum of Eurosqueamishness.

Iraq is, I'm sure, going to keep executing people until they're no longer on the front line of the war. As they damn well should.
Posted by: someone   2004-07-02 12:58:30 PM  

#13  
/Germans and French Object to Death Penalty for Saddam
Another thing they see eye-to-eye on with Saddam.

Still collaborating, Gerhardt & Jacques?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2004-07-02 12:38:46 PM  

#12  I think it's important for dictators to be made aware of the poor retirement plan. Idi Amin dying in his bed was a travesty.
Posted by: Formerly Dan   2004-07-02 12:26:08 PM  

#11  Man murders hundreds of thousands. French/Germans say: Hands off! Leftists say: Not US business! Families of murder victims say: Kill murderer! Leftists, Euro's say: Leave him alone! Don't hurt him! What am I missing?
Posted by: 5442   2004-07-02 12:00:29 PM  

#10  The Iraqis are a sovereign nation again. It is not the business of the US, UK, AoW, the Mariannas, or anyone else as to what happens to Saddam. And it is not the place of the UN to weigh in on the fate of Saddam either. They, the French, and the German govts are just this side of being accessories to the high crimes that Saddam and his cronies committed.
Posted by: Alaska Paul   2004-07-02 11:46:06 AM  

#9  BTW-Latvians, and eastern Europeans in general, have great bullsh*t detectors and no patience for impunity--they lived with that for too many decades. Ironic that Latvians have a better concept of sovereignty than France and Germany, it seems, who want to call the shots of justice for Iraqis.

Glad to read this comment from the Latvian Foreign Ministry spokesman, as I have heard from 2 former colleagues in Latvia that anti-Americanism is growing there (although still a minority view).
Posted by: jules 187   2004-07-02 10:58:18 AM  

#8  Spoken word: In Berlin, the government’s top human rights official, Claudia Roth, criticized Baghdad’s move to reinstate capital punishment, which was suspended during the U.S. occupation. "To start out this way does not send a good signal," Roth told The Associated Press. "I think it would have been a signal of democratic strength had they not reinstated the death penalty in Iraq."

Real meaning-The sovereignty of Iraq can only be authenticated by its adherence to European New Age criminal justice: punishment is out; counseling is in.
Posted by: jules 187   2004-07-02 10:51:58 AM  

#7  Someone once said that if you don't play the game, you don't get to make the rules. By their conspicuous lack of participation in Operation Iraqi Freedom and in the reconstruction efforts, France and Germany have earned the right to be ignored. With all the allegations of massive graft and corruption, it's easy to understand why the politicians of France and Germany would be against capital punishment, a simple matter of self-preservation.
Posted by: RWV   2004-07-02 10:04:04 AM  

#6  Germans and French Object to Death Penalty for Saddam

I can only assume Europe continues to experience lingering pangs of conscience over the senseless slaughter that resulted from Nuremburg.
Posted by: Zenster   2004-07-02 9:59:00 AM  

#5  I like the Latvian response, I feel the same. If the Iraqi's want to give hime the Il Duce treatment or back him a cake - none of my business anymore. (though personally, I was kind of hoping he gets the noose)
Posted by: Jarhead   2004-07-02 9:55:43 AM  

#4  what did the eminence Chirac say to W about meddling in others' affairs? F*&king lying crapweasel
Posted by: Frank G   2004-07-02 9:50:40 AM  

#3  The only way Frogs and Krauts would be for the death penalty is if they took out a large insurance policy on the accused.
Posted by: badanov   2004-07-02 9:48:39 AM  

#2  *enter* polite society, I meant, and I assume you did too.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2004-07-02 9:45:30 AM  

#1  Hasn’t Romania joined the EU?

Not yet. It's currently planned for 2007.

2. Brutally hack your ex-dictator.
3. Renounce capital punishment so that you can part polite society.

Which is probably a good enough description. There'll be little harm done in executing Saddam himself, but I do think it will help democracy and free society in Iraq if death penalty is *afterwards* banned.

*Especially* because Iraq was a country where executing people was the most effective means of shutting them up for all time.

There have existed lots of democracies *with* the death-penalty, but AFAIK there exist few dictatorships *without* it.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris   2004-07-02 9:43:11 AM  

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