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| Israel-Palestine |
| Israel’s Fence Encloses Less Than 1% of West Bank’s Palestinians |
| 2004-05-22 |
| David Makovsky has just completed a monograph for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy in which he analyzes the fence as it is actually being constructed. He’s found that the fence is generally following the route Bill Clinton had proposed as a possible border between Israel and a future Palestinian state. Makovsky counted the populations of all the villages and settlements on each side of the fence. He found that "fewer than 13,000 Palestinians — that is, less than 1 percent of the West Bank total — will actually be stranded on the Israeli side of the barrier." About 54,000 Israeli settlers, a quarter of the settler population, will be on the Palestinian side. In other words, the fence leaves 99 percent of the West Bank Palestinians on a contiguous 87.5 percent chunk of West Bank land. That is a reasonably fair provisional border, which the two sides can modify if they ever get around to cooperating. The Israelis initially planned a much more intrusive fence. But skillful diplomacy by Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Stephen Hadley, Elliot Abrams and other U.S. officials led to modifications. For example, the Israelis initially wanted to build a series of secondary fences that would have enclosed Palestinians. One of those deeper fences would have encircled 65,000 Arabs just east of the Tel Aviv airport. The U.S. prevailed on Israel to abandon those plans. |
| Posted by:Mike Sylwester |
| #24 Palestinians lived in what is now Israel for thousands of years. When Abraham who came from Mesopotamia(Iraq)the people of Palestine followed him they later followed Jesus when He came and many later converted to Islam. |
| Posted by: Antiwar 2004-05-22 12:59:26 PM |
| #23 Barbara, the descendants of the ancient Kingdom of Israel are the Palestinians who have lived there for thousands of years. They had been Jews then Christians,then Muslims. Jews have always lived in the Middle East. |
| Posted by: Antiwar 2004-05-22 12:08:03 PM |
| #22 Barbara Jews (notice the spelling no o's)are not always wrong however I think you mean Zionists when you say Jews;who ARE like Nazis. I presume your "wanker euro/lefty mode" is off and you are back to your Nazi Right-wing/Dubya fan mode. Remember Judaism and Zionism are opposites. |
| Posted by: Antiwar 2004-05-22 11:26:53 AM |
| #21 Curious -- AntiPasto's post = sarcasm. And pretty darn good sarcasm at that! =) |
| Posted by: docob 2004-05-22 8:34:42 PM |
| #20 AntiPasto: does that mean we have to be more sensitive to non-reality-based existential modalities, too? |
| Posted by: Dave D. 2004-05-22 8:07:06 PM |
| #19 Just because their culture "allows for non-linear, non-rational thinking" doesn't mean that we should accept genocide under the guise of "cultural tolerance". Understanding a person's culture does not mean accepting it blindly- if I know someone's being illogical, I-and many others-are going to point it out. |
| Posted by: Curious 2004-05-22 8:02:25 PM |
| #18 You freeper bastards are trying to gang logic a non reasoner. It's not right. Dammit dont't you understand that their culture is different and allows for non-linear, non-rational thinking. What wrong with you? Have you no shame? |
| Posted by: AntiPasto 2004-05-22 7:42:26 PM |
| #17 Anti-Wise -- A little Wikipedia Timeline for the area. Note the Arabs don't show up until 636 AD when the Byzantines are defeated in the Battle of Yarmuk - part of the militant spread of Islam. You know, the RoP. Also note that Abraham, the guy who created this One God mess and "invented" Judaism, married Sarah and dragged his clan to Canaan (a.k.a Israel) about 1800 BC - that's, um, 23 or 24 CENTURIES before the Arabs poke their (also semitic) noses into the area. Note that his grandson, Jacob (later renamed Israel) was hanging out there in Israel about 1750 BC (grandfather - granson ~ 50 yrs) - you know: the guy with the 12 kids / 12 tribes, etc. etc. etc. Get the picture, AntiWise? Hey, only Alley Oop has a stronger claim than those Israelites guys. And, as Phil B points out, it is precisely because of their Zionism (a.k.a. Modern Democratic Tolerant Civility) that we should (and do) support their security and existence. If only a tiny fraction of their good traits were to be found among the Blame Society Morons, your guys AW, that wishes to wipe them out. Sigh. But we must deal in reality, not your half-wit phantasy. Run along, now, kindergarten is over. Q.E.D. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-05-22 6:18:40 PM |
| #16 Sorry, I'm usually at least a bit more coherent but rampant ignorance like that displayed by anti-brain above brings out the worst in me. BTW anti-brain: as mentioned above the Nazi sympathizers in the Middle East were the Muslims who openly advocated killing Jews during WW II, not Zionists. The Mufti of Jerusalem who moved to Berlin to join in the Nazi crussade against the Jews was none other than Yasser Arafat's uncle Muhammed Amin al-Husseini. At the Nuremburg Trials Dieter Wisliceny, a deputy of Adolf Eichmann said, "The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan." So if you must persist in looking for modern Nazi sympathizers in the Middle East, I suggest you begin your search with those who both share their ideals and have real and demonstrable ties to the Third Reich. At minimum learn a little history before throwing accusations around. |
| Posted by: AzCat 2004-05-22 3:34:40 PM |
| #15 True, Mike, but it's an excellent summary. AzCat, you might want to hit the "enter" key occasionally and create paragraphs. It makes for easier reading. ;-) |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2004-05-22 3:07:27 PM |
| #14 AzCat, it's hard to read such long paragraphs. |
| Posted by: Mike Sylwester 2004-05-22 2:12:18 PM |
| #13 Anonymoose - Good summary but let's go back a bit farther. The historical area of Palestine (Israel + Jordan) was a nearly unpopulated wasteland for centuries until Jewish immigration began en masse in the late 19th century. The Jews bought land, often at extremely steep prices, from absentee (often Arab) landlords and founded many successful agricultural communities. Arab immigrants flooded in from the surrounding failed Arab societies to partake in the Jews' successes in rehabilitating the region and things proceeded apace until WWI. The Brits gained control of the area when the Ottoman Empire fell and having made vague informal wartime promises to the Arabs, more concrete formal promises to the Zionists and secret promises to the French punted the matter to the League of Nations who punted Palestine back to Britain along with a mandate from the international community to create a Jewish homeland there. The Arabs, quite unhappy with this state of affairs, immediately began killing Jews (and Arabs who dared to side with the Jews). Almost immediately the Brits partitioned nearly 80% of the lands included in the Jewish mandate and gave them over exclusively to the Arabs, prohibiting Jews from living in that area at all. Unhappy with the level of appeasement given them by the Brits, the Arabs continued killing Jews. The Brits responded by lowering the allowable Jewish immigration quotas, enforcing no quotas on Arab/Muslim immigration, and enacting a policy that dictated that under no circumstances should the Jewish population in the area of the Jewish mandate not be allowed to exceed 33% of the total population. Enter Hitler and his pre-Holocaust attempts to remove the Jews from Europe - but the Brits wouldn't budge on allowing Jews to actually immigrate to the Jewish mandate, instead they virtually cut off all Jewish immigration and declared that henceforth the Arab/Muslim majority would be allowed to set quotas on Jewish immigration into the Jewish mandate. As a direct result of their inability to immigrate to the Jewish homeland (or at least the tiny fraction of it that had not already been ceded by the Brits to the Arabs) created by the international community, millions of European Jews instead wound up in Hitler's ovens and gas chambers (cheered on by the main Arab nationalist figure of the Middle East, the Muslim Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who relocated to Berlin for the balance of the war and is said to have toured Hitler's extermination camps). After the war the Brits unilaterally granted independence to the Arab state of Jordan which comprised the nearly 80% of the original Jewish mandate in which Jews had been forbidden to settle. They then punted the small remainder of the Jewish mandate to the newly formed United Nations who did what Britain should have done decades earlier: formed the Jewish state of Israel on what little land remained - but not before carving significant portions of it off and giving them to Syria and Egypt. Unhappy with this turn of events the Arabs again resorted to doing what Arabs do: killing Jews. Wash, rinse, repeat. The Arabs won't stop until the Jews are dead and Israel lays in ruin, no peaceful settlement is possible. |
| Posted by: AzCat 2004-05-22 1:59:50 PM |
| #12 don't feed the dipshit trolls |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-05-22 1:23:29 PM |
| #11 Do you get out much Anti, and like talk to people? I get this idea that you grew up and live in what is called a "gated community" here in the States. Have you ever been truly challenged spiritually or morally? You appear to have reached adulthood and are still a blank slate. |
| Posted by: whitecollar redneck 2004-05-22 1:00:01 PM |
| #10 Many of the Palestinians who were living there when the Jews arrived in force after WWII were tenant farmers. They *rented* the land from its owners, most of whom lived in Syria and Lebanon. (Granted, some had been renting for generations.) They scraped out a meagre living, unchanged and with no intention of ever working hard enough to improve themselves. To the credit of the Jews, they *bought* large parcels of land in Palestine on which to live, not rented, not stolen. From that point on, it was Palestinians and Israeli Jews shouldering each other, until the Arabs decided to conquer the Jews militarily in 1949. Which didn't work. After that conflict settled down, the Jews began to rapidly develop *their* land, and the Palestinians went into a permanent funk, trying to figure out how to get what the Israelis had, without working like the Israelis did. With the help of their Arab brothers, in 1967, they tried to steal what the Jews had, again, and again unsuccessfully, losing even more of the empty and undeveloped desert they had owned and not improved. A recent scientific study concluded that it is more effective for a species to reproduce with fewer, but high quality, offspring, than to try to survive with numerous, but low-quality offspring. Darwinism in action. |
| Posted by: Anonymoose 2004-05-22 12:59:45 PM |
| #9 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
| Posted by: Antiwar TROLL 2004-05-22 12:59:26 PM |
| #8 Antithought any argument requires an initial premise, followed by logic, reaching a conclusion. As an example Jews have always lived in the Middle East = premise, Jews were persecuted and expelled in the hundreds of thousands consequently that had to have somewhere to go = argument, therefore they should have a homeland where they are not persecuted and can organize their own affairs (like having a civil society society free from Arab corruption, incompetance and rampnat racism) = conclusion. You see it is really quite simple. All you need is some practice. |
| Posted by: Phil B 2004-05-22 12:23:10 PM |
| #7 Antiwar has a point? Peshwar! Anti,I would think that the Paleos are desendants of the Cannanites,Mendenites,etc.Bascially anyone living in the Promised land,who was not on the Exodus from Egypt. |
| Posted by: Raptor 2004-05-22 12:20:07 PM |
| #6 Palestinians are an artifact of 55 years of UN bureaucracy that conducted an experiment. The UN bureaucrats wanted to see how many generations it would take before being raised in a "refugee" camp with food, clothing, shelter, etc. provided by the UN and other well-meaning organizations and education centered around the Koran could render a people totally useless, unable to do anything except consume, seethe, reproduce, and try to kill Jews. I think that the Palestinians are beyond salvage. They cannot be self-supporting. They have no concept of humanity. They have no future. They should be cut loose and left to starve alongside the road. |
| Posted by: RWV 2004-05-22 12:19:56 PM |
| #5 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
| Posted by: Antiwar TROLL 2004-05-22 12:08:03 PM |
| #4 Anti-Brain: Let me spell it out for you. I was being SARCASTIC and "channelling" the left-wing idiots' position. You must not have read any history, since you obviously have no clue what a Nazi is. Call me back when the Bush administration starts building concentration camps with crematoriums and we'll chat. Judaism is a religion. Zionism is defined as "a political movement among Jews holding that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focussed on the establishment of a Jewish homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there." (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Zionism) You're defined as a troll. |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2004-05-22 11:56:07 AM |
| #3 AntiThought I realize you are particularly dense, but it doesn't matter that they are Jews. As I have pointed out before, the residents of Israel could be Moldavians for all we care. What matters is they are Zionists - practitioners of civil society, rule of law, concern for individual rights. Now what was your point? |
| Posted by: Phil B 2004-05-22 11:51:00 AM |
| #2 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
| Posted by: Antiwar TROLL 2004-05-22 11:26:53 AM |
| #1 Facts don't matter. The Joooos are always wrong - and Nazis to boot - and the saintly "Palestinians" are always right. /wanker Euro/lefty mode |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2004-05-22 10:28:56 AM |