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| Iraq |
| More on Fallujah police shooting |
| 2003-09-15 |
| Heavily edited to just the new stuff. FALLUJAH, Liberated Iraq (AP) - Insurgents killed one U.S. soldier and wounded three others Sunday outside the troubled city of Fallujah, a day after angry protesters fired weapons and called for violence against the American occupation to protest one of the most serious friendly fire incidents of the Iraq war. The military provided few details, but Massoud Ibrahim, a soft drinks vendor who saw the attack, said rocket-propelled grenades were fired at an American truck and armored vehicle. Insurgents also fired a rocket-propelled grenade at a helicopter that arrived after the attack but missed, he said. The helicopter was unable to land. An armored vehicle was seen being towed away. The city center was quiet Sunday. Shops were open despite a one-day strike that shut government offices in protest of the friendly fire killings early Friday, and people went about their daily business. Relations between people in Fallujah and U.S. forces have been extremely tense since shortly after the city was captured in April. The U.S. administrator for Iraq on Sunday commented publicly on the accidental killing of eight Iraqi policemen by U.S. forces who mistook them for guerillas. He called the incident regrettable and suggesting victims’ families might be compensated. ``The very regrettable incident in Fallujah is still under investigation by our military. We have expressed regrets for it publicly,’’ L. Paul Bremer said at a news conference with visiting Secretary of State Colin Powell. ``When we have reached conclusions about how the incident came about, we’ll take appropriate steps. In the past we have paid families ... where we felt it was appropriate, but this incident is still under investigation.’’ Powell arrived in Baghdad on Sunday for his first visit since the U.S.-led ouster of Saddam Hussein. He said he was encouraged by progress toward self-rule. He stood fast against growing international pressure to quickly turn responsibility for running the country back to Iraqis. ``The worst thing that could happen is for us to push this process too quickly before the capacity for governance is there and the basis for legitimacy is there and see it fail,’’ Powell said. For those who think Powell doesn’t have a spine, this is a pretty good refutation. Earlier Sunday, Powell met with Hoshyar Zebari, Iraq’s new foreign minister, and said the security situation remained challenging, with a ``major new threat’’ coming from ``terrorists who are trying to infiltrate into the country for the purpose of disrupting this whole process.’’ The flypaper strategy is working but that doesn’t mean we aren’t going to have bad days. |
| Posted by:Steve White |
| #21 Hey, Murat. Were the Armenians "terrorists" or "insurgents"? Which classification would make them less dead? |
| Posted by: tu3031 2003-9-15 11:22:30 PM |
| #20 Shan, you obviously missed it that the original comment was meant to be OVER-THE-TOP. Nevertheless, from your response it is quite apparent that you haven't quite figured out yet that the Islamofacists would do just what was over-the-top suggested were the tables turned and the opportunity available--it is truly their desire to convert-or-kill ALL "infidels", and no matter how much you like to think of yourself has being "reasonable", you're just another infidel to them. |
| Posted by: Flaming Sword 2003-9-15 2:00:39 PM |
| #19 "but I thought I'd let you vent" Since I don't think you own this site, in which way would you stop me from venting? And your Big Brother attitude remains Big Brother attitude. Call it fuzzy-wuzzy debate if you will, but you remain despicable. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-15 1:23:16 PM |
| #18 Ah, Aris! Cool! Just your kind of fuzzy-wuzzy debate till dawn kind of topic. BTW, you already have the Holier-Than-Anyone Award locked up. Shan's just another wannabee. You're not worthy of direct response, but I thought I'd let you vent - you've been awfully quiet of late and, believe it or not, I don't want you to go away - or explode. Knock yourself out! |
| Posted by: .com (Prez for Life - My Isles of Langerhans) 2003-9-15 12:38:48 PM |
| #17 LOL! Shan - you just couldn't help yourself, huh? What a load. You should suck up to Aris - he's got the Rantburg Humanitarian Award locked. You're someone who talks out of his / her ass. If you have, indeed, read my previous posts then you know this one was an over the top exagerration. Geez, what a jackass. If that's beyond your ken, keep reading. Otherwise, shut up and fuck off. You just had to spew and you figure I'm your easiest target. Cool. You're one of those incredibly sensitive people and as absolutely certain that you shit doesn't stink as anyone who's ever graced Rantburg. So stop with the I'm so wonderful and prove some of this. What do you know, yourself. Not what you've read or seen on BBC or in the movies - but what first-hand knowledge do you have? I think you're one of those romantics who hasn't even accepted that we're already at war. That it was thrust upon us, uninvited. That the enemy is implacable and willing to do precisely those things that set you off in my comment. And will, before it's over. C'mon. You've now declared yourself my better, prove it. Precisely how do you gauge someone's humanity? If I carried an enemy soldier three miles to medical aid - after being in a firefight with him and others, does that make me good? What if I killed several of his cohorts in that same firefight? What am I then? C'mon, Shan - or should I refer to you as Solomon, since you have declared yourself worthy to judge me? C'mon. What qualifies you to judge me? You're JAFO, methinks. |
| Posted by: .com (Prez for Life - My Isles of Langerhans) 2003-9-15 12:29:08 PM |
| #16 Anonymus, 2 things that proof you're wrong, 1st the Caliphate does not exist anymore since Ataturk abolished it 2nd the Turkish armies where at the walls of Vienna. So who is going to do that again since the Turks won't, the Arabs? Don't make us laugh will ya. |
| Posted by: Murat 2003-9-15 12:00:11 PM |
| #15 "Are you a Saddam admirer, Murat? If not, then the Saddamite Ba'athists of the Sunni Triangle would not be "resistors" to you - they'd be terrorists. " Bullshit. Terrorism isn't defined by whether you *like* someone's actions or not, it's defined by the means and the goals of that action. Shooting military personnel isn't terrorism. Regardless of whether it's your personnel or theirs. The Saddamite Ba'athists that did this may be "evil scum from the pits of hell" or "wanna-be tyrants" or whatever else you may want to call them, but if you can't tell the difference between somebody who simply wages war against your troops and a "terrorist", then you've lost the argument already. For them to be terrorists they have to attack civilians as a means of terrorizing a population into submission. You don't seem to even realize the encroachment of newspeak in your language; words not used for what they mean but by the opinion you want to impose. You seem even *proud* of it when you say idiotic 1984 stuff like "If you like what they did, then they aren't terrorists, if you didn't like it then they are." "while leaving the non-white free rein to do what he wants to do, which is kill US." Non-whites want to kill US? I hope you didn't mean that the way it sounded. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-9-15 11:58:38 AM |
| #14 Shan, doesn't matter what color .com is. Americans aren't all white, contrary to popular delusion. This transcends color. Besides, your comment seems to want to handicap the white person, while leaving the non-white free rein to do what he wants to do, which is kill US. The point is, it's going to take jihadi thinking to defeat them, especially when one reads comments such as this from Robert Pollard's column yesterday: " A Hamas member explained to an interviewer last month that: "The Jews have destroyed your Christianity just like they are trying to destroy our Islam. You should read the words of the Prophet. Join us. We do not just want to liberate Palestine. We want all countries to live under the Caliphate. The Islamic army once reached the walls of Vienna. It will happen again." --We want all countries to live under the Caliphate. The Islamic army once reached the walls of Vienna. It will happen again."-- Got that? How do you think the Caliphate is going to be extended? Possibly by killing BTW --Then how can you suggest that the entire male population of a town be wiped out?-- Europe didn't seem to have a problem w/it when 8000 muslim men and boys were separated and murdered while Dutch peacekeepers looked on because they weren't allowed to do anything by the UN. |
| Posted by: Anonymous 2003-9-15 11:47:17 AM |
| #13 While wiping out the entire male population is not a option, there are other historical models to follow. During the invasion of Germany we would frequently clear a newly captured town of all people to a camp. The town would be searched and the people would all be processes (especially the Males). The people would then be slowly released back into the town. Then during the occupation attacks on troops would result in a town being ordered to give up the attackers. If they did not the town would be cleared and burned. The people would then be marched back in to rebuild. This was very common with the French and Russians. While it was severe, it did result in the towns starting to police their own. Fallujah is a Bathist stronghold and has been a problem since the beginning. The pictures I saw of the protests this weekend showed many Iraqi's with weapons and they appeared to be pretty knowledgable with them. I saw a few people with the larger drum fed machine guns. I would guess with the number of Bathist in this area you cannot count on pulling local support until you make it clear opposing us has some REAL pitfalls. |
| Posted by: Patrick 2003-9-15 11:41:34 AM |
| #12 Then how can you suggest that the entire male population of a town be wiped out? You've never seen raw footage of 9-11, have you? Yesterday I was watching BBC's footage of that day, and you should've heard the exclamatory, controversial stuff coming out of my mouth. And normally I'm a pacifist, live-and-let-live type of guy. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2003-9-15 10:43:11 AM |
| #11 Now, now Badanov...calm down, will you? Ganja sales? Afraid ganja's too weak for us. And may I say that if you think I see too much becauseof intoxicants, I think you are blind not to see it. Afganistan is once again overrun by Taliban and it's apologists. Only Kabul is totally controlled by the US-Karzai nexus. Women are being killed once again, and prevented from education. And the US has conveniently forgotten all it set out to do. And I can see the same being repeated in Iraq. I am as against the jihadis as you are, except that .com is more often than not way out of line. His remarks smack of racism, which is why my remarks were addressed to him in particular. You see the problem with you and .com is not just that you don't think. The real problem lies in your selective reading of world affairs according to your world view, or if you can call it such, ideology. I too belong to a country that faces continual Islamic terrorism, but I would never recommend genocide of muslims as a course of action, as .com does. Because then there would be no difference between an uneducated muslim fanatic and philistine, and me. The problem is I fail to see this difference between .com and the fanatic. All of you are educated, and have studied history. Maybe rational even, in your own Fox News "fair and balanced" fashion. Then how can you suggest that the entire male population of a town be wiped out? The other people from history I can remember who made similar suggestions are Hitler and Stalin. Illustrious company!!! :) |
| Posted by: Shan 2003-9-15 10:11:20 AM |
| #10 Fallujah was a Baathist hot spot for a long time. It seems odd that we got bad intell on this thing and shot up the police we were trying to train. Suppose this is deliberate planted bad intell designed to make us look bad and provoke a problem in an area that isn't exactly warm and fuzzy to us........I think the Baathists manipulated this one into occurring. Fallujah of all places..........damn!!! |
| Posted by: SOG475 2003-9-15 9:48:49 AM |
| #9 A white skinned jihadi! Now that you have broached the subject of race, what race are you? If you feel killing innocent people is the solution in Iraq, let me point out that the US has killed enough already, including women and children, and that far from solving your problems, they have just begun. Riiight. Let the US/Brits stop shooting so your friends in Iraq can fill more US/Brit body bags. More leftist tactical doctrine. If sheer force could solve problems, then the Taliban would not have been ruling Afganistan, as they are again now. I guess ganja sales must be up in your neck of the woods, too. Right? |
| Posted by: badanov 2003-9-15 9:45:03 AM |
| #8 I normally don't comment but felt that I had to respond to .com. "If they STILL don't "get it" then exile the press assholes to Baghdad, sweep the town and surrounding countryside, and shoot every male between 15 and 55. Enough of Fallujah. Make an example of it." Well, this is just the kind of talk jihadis like .com. You are speaking their language, and what does that make you? A white skinned jihadi! If you feel killing innocent people is the solution in Iraq, let me point out that the US has killed enough already, including women and children, and that far from solving your problems, they have just begun. If sheer force could solve problems, then the Taliban would not have been ruling Afganistan, as they are again now. Hey .com, I'll give you a great idea. Just nuke Iraq, and N Korea, and all the other pesky Islamic countries that keep refusing to acknowledge US supremacy. And while you are at it, nuke the G-21 at Cancun as well. How dare they ask US to reduce farm subsidies!!! HOW DARE ANY-BLOODY-BODY SAY, DO, OR THINK ANYTHING AGAINST THE US??!! Nuke 'em all, I say! Let the dirty non-whites go to hell! |
| Posted by: Shan 2003-9-15 9:30:16 AM |
| #7 The US military learned some hard lessons during the Viet Nam war just as I did, and one of them is to not let traitorous leeches like Murat go unchallenged. Hmm... Judging by the administration allowing the media's policy of 'report the body-bag count and not any accomplishments' go unchallenged. I am not sure I agree with this. The american media only sees as far as the blood and definately have a 'if it bleeds it leads' policy. Strange how the media hardly blinks an eye when one of these so-called 'resistance fighters' (their definition - terrorist is mine) deliberately targets and murders civilians but get their panties in a knot when our forces accidently kill unidentifiable persons (who happen to be police) rushing a checkpoint. One thing we had learned from Viet Nam is that we dont let politicians and the leeches run wars. |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2003-9-15 9:29:10 AM |
| #6 Mighty damn wide paint brush you are using there,Murat. I don’t agree with the US on every point what does that make me? An ass! |
| Posted by: raptor 2003-9-15 6:53:29 AM |
| #5 "I thought terrorism and resistance to occupation (insurgence) where two separate things..." Definitely depends upon the shoes you're wearing. I'm wearing my "shoot the Ba'athist fuckers" shoes because these Fallujah morons were Saddam's boyz - and they are just pissed because we got rid of Mr Dictator. The whole region's not worth one soldier's life. Are you a Saddam admirer, Murat? If not, then the Saddamite Ba'athists of the Sunni Triangle would not be "resistors" to you - they'd be terrorists. Ah, but if so, if you DO admire Saddam, well now, that would certainly explain why your ass is where your head should be, and vice versa. "I don’t agree with the US on every point what does that make me?" Wrong. (heh) Sorry, I couldn't help it. It makes you - you, Murat. Think what you like, but don't expect agreement. Repeat: Enough of Fallujah. Make an Example of it. |
| Posted by: .com (Prez for Life - My Isles of Langerhans) 2003-9-15 6:52:58 AM |
| #4 I thought terrorism and resistance to occupation (insurgence) where two separate things Typical lefist/romanticist bullshit: People who shoot people in the back are resistance fighters, as long as the targets are Americans. US troops are not allowed to defend themselves because they are part of an occupying force. This is defeatist and traitorous. If you can't support the mission, you don't support the troops, that is the bottom line. I frankly don't care if you love the US or you hate it; if you stay or if you go. If you can't support American military in war, you are a traitor. The US military learned some hard lessons during the Viet Nam war just as I did, and one of them is to not let traitorous leeches like Murat go unchallenged. |
| Posted by: badanov 2003-9-15 6:47:00 AM |
| #3 I thought terrorism and resistance to occupation (insurgence) where two separate things, I guess not for American standards! I propose to change the world definitions for resistance. To make it easy for our American friends from now on everything which include an anti or negative outcome to the US should be called terrorism. I don’t agree with the US on every point what does that make me? |
| Posted by: Murat 2003-9-15 6:00:29 AM |
| #2 It's too bad that this place didn't "feel" the war. If a few hundred Abrahms and several thousand other US vehicles had rolled through town enroute to Badhdad, after whacking a few hundred local moron "fedayeen/feyadeen/howarddean" types along the way, the scope of their stupidity would be recognized. Like the the blind men examining an elephant, what tiny fraction of reality they know is only that tiny part they've actually seen (handled) - a very common Arab trait, BTW. If the full force and might of the forces were brought to bear - to make the point that they WILL be assimilated, Borg-style, like it or not, things would change. The one thing they DO "get" is power - they wielded it under Saddam. And that is the problem: they're not total idiots, just total asshats. I wish Patton was running this sector... it's time for an overwhelming show of force to let them "get it" peacefully before ANY more US troopers get shot in the back. If they STILL don't "get it" then exile the press assholes to Baghdad, sweep the town and surrounding countryside, and shoot every male between 15 and 55. Enough of Fallujah. Make an example of it. |
| Posted by: .com (Prez for Life - My Isles of Langerhans) 2003-9-15 4:19:14 AM |
| #1 For those who think Powell doesn’t have a spine, this is a pretty good refutation. Except when it comes to the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat. Then he just collapses into a pile of Jello. |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2003-9-15 3:54:42 AM |